I am trying to write a difficult poem

and I'm looking for advice. I am trying to write a poem about a young French woman who, during World War II, takes a German soldier as her lover. The poem is set after the war, when her fellow citizens, angry at her "collaboration" (i.e. falling in love with a young German) with the occupying German army, shaves her head to humiliate her (and identify her as a collaborator) and parades her, stripped nude, before the citizens of her city.

I have a lot of concerns about this poem. I don't want to be insensitive to those populations who were harmed by WW II, for example. But I want to focus on the experience of the young woman, who, as young people do, fall in love with whomever happens to be around at the time.

Here is the poem:


Collaborator

Angry citizens shaved her head,
marched her nude
through the center of their city.

Her boy had left in the retreat,
unable to stay behind lest
he be shot as a deserter,

so she had no option but to endure
the spit, the spoiled fruit
thrown and smeared

on her body. All she could do
was remember his words
that last night:

Ich liebe dich.
Ich werde für dich
zurückkehren, Liebling.

Wenn ich kann. So she welcomed
even the rotted egg
some old man crushed against

her cheek as penance
for the purity of her love,
hoping only that Klaus would return

someday when the violence
had quieted,
and that then he would marry her.


I'm not at all sure what help I am asking for. Suggestions for extending the poem? Correcting the German (which I copied from Google Translate)? Making the poem more meaningful to women in difficult situations, either political or personal? Simply scrapping the whole thing?

I know there is not a lot of activity in this forum right now, but I am hoping some of you might provide some helpful comments.

You have my thanks in advance.

A very brief comment

Hi EllenMore,

don't mention nationalities at all (it's enough to indicate that there are two). Replace German language by Esperanto.

Regards,

Revision per Senna Jawa

Senna Jawa said:

Hi EllenMore,

don't mention nationalities at all (it's enough to indicate that there are two). Replace German language by Esperanto.

Regards,

Click to expand...

Collaborator

Angry citizens shaved her head,
marched her nude
through the center of their city.

Her boy had left in the retreat,
unable to stay behind lest
he be shot as a deserter,

so she had no option but to endure
the spit, the spoiled fruit
thrown and smeared

on her body. All she could do
was remember his words
that last night:

Mi amas vin.
Mi revenos por vi,
kara.

Se mi povas. So she welcomed
even the rotted egg
some old man crushed against

her cheek as penance
for the purity of her love,
hoping only that K. would return

someday when the violence
had quieted,
and that then he would marry her.


Better?

Very short . I have to be quick:-

In the first few lines. It was always men who punished the women - not citizens.

Change marched to drove - march implies order and discipline, droving is what you do to your animals.

Lose all references to the boyfriend except the 5th last line, to emphasize the fact she is totally on her own and without hope. The second verse and the last four lines could be scrubbed. The title is sufficient to show his existence.

A love poem written in the third person I think merits the inclusion of the lover’s name once; too many impersonal pronouns and adjectives IMO make it less effective.

I like what you did with the foreign language in the revision; more comprehensible. At first, I was taken back by Sena’s suggestion, but it works well.

Hey, EllenMore, I welcome your nice attitude.

In my opinion, the revised poem is better than the earlier version. You still have some distance to overcome.

=================================================

Ishtat has written, "It was always men who punished the women - not citizens."

I agree with this VIEW but it's not relevant poetry-wise. Correct or false views have very little to do with poetry. In particular, the author does not have to present their own views, their text may assume the customary voice, etc. In conclusion, I don't see anything wrong (poetically) with "citizens".

I agree with greenmountaineer but with a detail-modification. Yes, the lovers should not be generic in the poem. However, they can be identified not necessarily by a name. E.g. they may address each other (even in their mind) by some humorous but kind (friendly) phrases.

=================================================

EllenMore, you have all this grammar, logic, and the author's "total knowledge" in your text of the poem. Get rid of these unpoetic ways of writing. Leave a pure report of what senses perceive, that's all. (Also, everything in the report should be artistically relevant).

This reporting is a general way of writing poems, just a pure reporting of sensual sensations--colors, images, movement, rhythm, smells, touch, pain (but sensually described, say by images, and not by author's talking), ... Also, the material quality of the language (regardless of its meaning) is an important ingredient of a poem. There are some other kinds of poems but let's call them exotic, which are not concerned with any meaning or not directly, when you are after non-literary effects.

About the title

Hi, EllenMore again (let me know when it's already too much...--don't worry, I tire these days quickly),

the title should be a part of the poem, it should be a part of the art. I don't feel that word "collaborator" carries any poetry, it doesn't add to the poetic effect. It's too smart, ... Also, I detect a bit of irony or sarcasm, and that's not what poetry is about.

Also, a title should not be a summary of the poem. Let it add to the text something new (harmoniously while it may introduce even certain contrast). Keep your readers on their toes, hence--no summary.

Senna Jawa said:

Ishtat has written, "It was always men who punished the women - not citizens."

I agree with this VIEW but it's not relevant poetry-wise. Correct or false views have very little to do with poetry. In particular, the author does not have to present their own views, their text may assume the customary voice, etc. In conclusion, I don't see anything wrong (poetically) with "citizens".

]

Click to expand...

Point taken Senna; oddly enough you set me off on this track. Your suggestion of changing the language was very effective (to me) in giving the poem a much broader context (any conflict-anywhere) I was thinking in terms of much broader men/women conflict.

I'll have to think more carefully about poetic relevancein future

I'm still not keen on 'citizens', like citoyen it reminds me rather specifically of the French Revolutionary period. Perhaps I read too much Baroness Orczy.

Hi EllenMoore, I don’t visit here very often now a days, but as I was passing I saw your poem and I liked its subject. Here is my quick dollar worth of reaction:

I also liked the 2nd version of the poem better and I think that you've received some very good advice from all commentators.
I agree with Senna in particular on the use of Esperanto as a defusing device in this particular case, but also with his remarks on the title of the poem. It should be part of the whole and also an effective beginning of the whole. The word Collaborator in connection with WW2 is politically charged as negative whether we like it or not, but imo, the word "Collaborator" is less so and more explanatory, just as included in inverted comas.
It is up to you if you want to keep the poem in this second version or want to develop it into a full romance (methinks the more extended version would be more satisfactory-but that is only me). All the best, thanks for sharing.

The Esperanto quote reminded me about an ancient Chinese poem, specifically--the two last lines did,


Enjoy,

Go for the German Version

The comments here are interesting. I don't agree with them, which may be unhelpful to the OP, but I"ll offer my thoughts anyway.

I don't get the objection to the use of German at all.

The use of German provides a clear and useful context for the poem. Without further explanation, the reader knows the poem is probably set during World War II. That conjures up a host of images that, in my view, make the poem far more vivid, provide a setting, and explain the events of the poem. The reference to nationalism is a good and useful thing because nationalism is part of what explains the hostility that underlies the events of the poem, and the conflict that gives it meaning and poignancy.

No one actually speaks Esperanto, especially soldiers at war. The use of Esperanto deprives the poem of context and vividness. It removes it from the real world, where the poem has poignancy, and puts it in a fantasy context, where it may have bland universality, but no vividness or concrete meaning.

Also, many people don't know Esperanto, and they won't recognize what the language is or understand why it's being used. Everybody recognizes German, even if they can't read it. The sudden introduction of German words is a nice element of surprise and contrast in the poem. It makes it crackle more than the use of Esperanto.

Definitely use "Klaus", not "K". I can't understand why any poet would want to make a poem less, not more, vivid. If she loves him and pines for him why would she refer to him with an initial?

As far as the use of "citizens" is concerned -- it depends on what you want to say in the poem. I wouldn't replace it with "men" unless the point of the poem was to emphasize male oppression of women. I don't think that's your point. The poem is more about the poignancy of love that is forbidden by the context of the war. The word citizens is much more to the point.

Concerning what additional things you want to add, I don't think you need to add much. It depends on what you want to say with the poem. Is there some particular point, or angle, or mood you want to capture? Answer that question and it will help guide you on how to change the poem, if at all.

"Penance for the purity of her love". I like what you are trying to get at with this phrase, but I don't think "purity" works, because she's not doing penance for the purity of her love, she's doing penance because it's disloyal, treasonous, forbidden. I can't quite think of the right word to use here, but I think this could be tinkered with to express the thought more accurately.

Regarding Senna's comment on the title: it depends, again, on your point. I think it works. Irony is very much a legitimate element of poetry. The word "collaborator" introduces the theme of loyalty. She is regarded as disloyal by her fellow citizens, but the poem shows she remains loyal to Klaus/K. It's not my poem but if I were writing it that's the point I would emphasize at the end, and you have.

ishtat said:

Very short . I have to be quick:-

In the first few lines. It was always men who punished the women - not citizens.

Change marched to drove - march implies order and discipline, droving is what you do to your animals.

Lose all references to the boyfriend except the 5th last line, to emphasize the fact she is totally on her own and without hope. The second verse and the last four lines could be scrubbed. The title is sufficient to show his existence.

Click to expand...

ishtat:

Thank you for your excellent comments. My use of the word "citizen" is not only intended to emphasize that both sexes agree with the shaming behavior, but even more to emphasize that the shaming is, essentially, governmental, in that it implies a particular governmental/political structure.

"Change" to "drove" is an excellent suggestion. Thank you.

greenmountaineer said:

A love poem written in the third person I think merits the inclusion of the lover’s name once; too many impersonal pronouns and adjectives IMO make it less effective.

I like what you did with the foreign language in the revision; more comprehensible. At first, I was taken back by Sena’s suggestion, but it works well.

Click to expand...

greenmountaineer:

I am not at all sure the poem is a love poem. I'm not sure I intend it to be a love poem, but your comment about "impersonal pronouns and adjectives" is apt.

I was also startled by Senna Jawa's suggestion about Esperanto. I tried it as a joke, but I actually like it, though I'm not wholly convinced by it.

Thank you all.

I apologize to all of you who have posted responses to my thread. Some work/life issues have prevented me from responding promptly to your excellent suggestions. I will try to comment on them in the next few days.

Please blame curriculum committees, aging parents, and the fact I was really enjoying reading a book by John McPhee.

You should read his work. He's really good.

Senna Jawa said:

EllenMore, you have all this grammar, logic, and the author's "total knowledge" in your text of the poem. Get rid of these unpoetic ways of writing. Leave a pure report of what senses perceive, that's all. (Also, everything in the report should be artistically relevant).

This reporting is a general way of writing poems, just a pure reporting of sensual sensations--colors, images, movement, rhythm, smells, touch, pain (but sensually described, say by images, and not by author's talking), ... Also, the material quality of the language (regardless of its meaning) is an important ingredient of a poem. There are some other kinds of poems but let's call them exotic, which are not concerned with any meaning or not directly, when you are after non-literary effects.

Click to expand...

Senna Jawa:

Your request that the poem "[l]eave a pure report of what the senses perceive" is a good suggestion, though I think that certain poems with certain goals (especially political goals) would find that suggestion unworkable.

I think (I am not yet certain about it) that I want to make a political statement with this poem. Not a major, ALL CAPS statement the way my president would, but a statement nonetheless. That may disqualify it as a "poem" in your eyes. I understand that. I think I might be more interested in writing something of political consequence, however weak and ineffectual it may be.

That might help to explain your dissatisfaction with my poem.

Senna Jawa said:

Hi, EllenMore again (let me know when it's already too much...--don't worry, I tire these days quickly),

the title should be a part of the poem, it should be a part of the art. I don't feel that word "collaborator" carries any poetry, it doesn't add to the poetic effect. It's too smart, ... Also, I detect a bit of irony or sarcasm, and that's not what poetry is about.

Also, a title should not be a summary of the poem. Let it add to the text something new (harmoniously while it may introduce even certain contrast). Keep your readers on their toes, hence--no summary.

Click to expand...

I have thought about changing the title. The latest revision of the poem (which is so awful I will not post it here) has a very different title.

I will say this: the original title was neither "smart" nor "ironic." It was purely descriptive.

That it perhaps told too much to the reader, I acknowledge.

ishtat said:

I'm still not keen on 'citizens', like citoyen it reminds me rather specifically of the French Revolutionary period. Perhaps I read too much Baroness Orczy.

Click to expand...

As have I:

pelegrino said:

Hi EllenMoore, I don’t visit here very often now a days, but as I was passing I saw your poem and I liked its subject. Here is my quick dollar worth of reaction:

I also liked the 2nd version of the poem better and I think that you've received some very good advice from all commentators.
I agree with Senna in particular on the use of Esperanto as a defusing device in this particular case, but also with his remarks on the title of the poem. It should be part of the whole and also an effective beginning of the whole. The word Collaborator in connection with WW2 is politically charged as negative whether we like it or not, but imo, the word "Collaborator" is less so and more explanatory, just as included in inverted comas.
It is up to you if you want to keep the poem in this second version or want to develop it into a full romance (methinks the more extended version would be more satisfactory-but that is only me). All the best, thanks for sharing.

Click to expand...

Thank you pelegrino, for your thoughtful comments.

I don't know that simply putting the word Collaborator in quotation marks would help me. That would imply, I think, authorial skepticism about the label, which I'm not sure I want to imply (the subject most certainly is a collaborator, in the usual sense of the word, though I am sympathetic to her motive, I think).

This is in part why I find the poem difficult to write.

SimonDoom said:

The comments here are interesting. I don't agree with them, which may be unhelpful to the OP, but I"ll offer my thoughts anyway.

Click to expand...

Dear SimonDoom:

I really appreciate your extensive comments, but I must defer my response to them for now. I'm tired, and I have to go make dinner. So thank you, and forgive me and I'll try to respond to you tomorrow.

Couple of thoughts

EllenMore said:

and I'm looking for advice. I am trying to write a poem about a young French woman who, during World War II, takes a German soldier as her lover. The poem is set after the war, when her fellow citizens, angry at her "collaboration" (i.e. falling in love with a young German) with the occupying German army, shaves her head to humiliate her (and identify her as a collaborator) and parades her, stripped nude, before the citizens of her city.

I have a lot of concerns about this poem. I don't want to be insensitive to those populations who were harmed by WW II, for example. But I want to focus on the experience of the young woman, who, as young people do, fall in love with whomever happens to be around at the time.

Here is the poem:


Collaborator

Angry citizens shaved her head,
marched her nude
through the center of their city.

Her boy had left in the retreat,
unable to stay behind lest
he be shot as a deserter,

so she had no option but to endure
the spit, the spoiled fruit
thrown and smeared

on her body. All she could do
was remember his words
that last night:

Ich liebe dich.
Ich werde für dich
zurückkehren, Liebling.

Wenn ich kann. So she welcomed
even the rotted egg
some old man crushed against

her cheek as penance
for the purity of her love,
hoping only that Klaus would return

someday when the violence
had quieted,
and that then he would marry her.


I'm not at all sure what help I am asking for. Suggestions for extending the poem? Correcting the German (which I copied from Google Translate)? Making the poem more meaningful to women in difficult situations, either political or personal? Simply scrapping the whole thing?

I know there is not a lot of activity in this forum right now, but I am hoping some of you might provide some helpful comments.

You have my thanks in advance.

Click to expand...

Why not begin with her being walked through town and as she is paraded, provide the details as to why she's in her current state? I'm not suggesting you obscure the story line, just invert the plot a bit.

I'm certain young lady didn't wake up one morning and decide "I'm going to fall in love with an enemy of my country." Therefore you need to work this plot line as well. Moreover, work this in with your usage of the German stanza

Good luck

Thanks to all of you who commented on my poem. For various reasons, I have stopped working on it for the time being. To misquote Valéry, A poem is never finished, only abandoned.

I leave mine on a street corner in a large city, next to an overflowing refuse container.

If it's still there some time from now, I might pick it up again and try to do something with it. If not, may it rest in peace in whatever midden it finds itself part of.

My comments are likely too little too late, but indeed I rarely wander here these days.But when I do, the poems still draw me in. So please forgive my playing a bit with yours—maybe some of my suggestions will resonate with you. I hope you will not give it up entirely.


Angry villagers shaved her head,
marched her nude
down streets, through squares
under the chestnut trees

Her love had left in the retreat
lest he be shot as a deserter,
a youth trapped behind his flag

She had no option but endure
the spit, the spoiled fruit
thrown and smeared

on her body. She could only
remember his words
from their last night: ... (I liked the Germabut speak it no better than Google Translate anymore. AlwaysHungry knows it well enough to be able to help you, probably. I liked the Esperanto as well but agree with Ishtat’s from the specificity of the moment.)
....

... So she welcomed
even the rotted egg
an old man crushed against (an old man —> le vieux ? using the French would add to place and texture)

her cheek as penance
for her pure love, wishing
only that Klaus would return

someday when the violence
quieted,
hoping he would marry her then.



A last musing: I disagree that you need more backstory or setting. As a famous writer (John LeCarré, I think) said, you should start the story at the latest possible moment.

Good luck, EllenMore.

EllenMore said:

Collaborator

Angry citizens shaved her head,
marched her nude
through the center of their city.

Her boy had left in the retreat,
unable to stay behind lest
he be shot as a deserter,

so she had no option but to endure
the spit, the spoiled fruit
thrown and smeared

on her body. All she could do
was remember his words
that last night:

Mi amas vin.
Mi revenos por vi,
kara.

Se mi povas. So she welcomed
even the rotted egg
some old man crushed against

her cheek as penance
for the purity of her love,
hoping only that K. would return

someday when the violence
had quieted,
and that then he would marry her.


Better?

Click to expand...