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Healthy Sub

CM, do you write critical thinking examples for tests? Lol, cause you're damned good at it.

I swear, I went to a charity event, came back and was confused at the crazy that happened here. {(-_-)} I think some people need to go spend time in the GB, especially if they're on the masochistic side.
 
IrisAlthea said:
I do enjoy it, between facepalm moments.
Youngest one angrily stomped up the stairs this morning. Later when I went by her door, she had posted a handwritten sign on it that said "closed!".
I did manage to get out of earshot before rolling on the floor laughing.
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You are better Mom than I was, I dont think I could move even a step before rolling on the floor laughing.

You know what is the most amazing thing for me. When your kids start to act towards you like you are one of their (better) friends. Telling you stuff, asking sensitive questions, discussing delicate matters. At first I asked myself "did I somehow fuck up the authority thing?", then I realized my kids are grown up women now and treat me as one of their own just with a bit more experience.
Kind of relief from the mother hen attitude and warms the heart so much :)

bdsmshade said:
Not sure about those but I do a lovely diabetic friendly mocca butter icing goes great on coffee cake
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You go on like that and I will be tempted to offer you a job in my kitchen ;)

MeekMe said:
I think some people need to go spend time in the GB, especially if they're on the masochistic side.
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I go to GB for a holiday off when I get tired of bickering here :eek:
 
CutieMouse said:
IMO, the "hard stuff" has nothing to do with how a submissive feels about his or her decision to submit. Hard stuff is things like -

You're in a relationship and your partner has final say. Period. A life changing event has come up, and you strongly disagree with your partner's decision. How do you handle it?

or

You have always felt submissive, but were a little ashamed/ felt wrong for the feelings, so hid it from your partners. You've been married 10 years, have 1 child with another on the way, and finally shared your submissive desires with your partner. They said they were on board, but you don't feel they understand what their role in the relationship is. What do you do?

or

You are married, and consider your relationship to be D/s. You've started noticing that your children (one boy, one girl) are mimicking your relationship dynamics, and you don't know if that's because of the model you present, or they're simply inclined to behave that way. How do you raise a well rounded child, in a D/s household, ensuring that they understand how to assert themselves, as well as respect the authority of others (who may or may not fit traditional leadership roles)?

or

You fall on the "natural submissive" side of the spectrum, but have started realizing that it feels like friends, family and coworkers are taking advantage of you. How do you reconcile a "naturally submissive" personality, with the day to day stuff, without being/ feeling used?

or

Your best friend is worried that you are in a codependent relationship, and expresses concern. You decide to explain the D/s thing to them, and the talk goes better than you expected... but they are also still able to point out examples of codependent [damaging, unhealthy] behaviors in the relationship. You recognize that a lot of D/s might look codependent from the outside, but also recognize that your friend has some valid points. How do you figure out what is a positive D/s element (that deviates from "the norm" in modern relationships), and what isn't? And if you do identify something negative, what happens next?

Those things are hard. People in an online forum saying "XYZ is the most amazing, insightful view of BDSM I've ever read and it speaks to me all the way down to my submissive toes!" / "ehhhhh... gotta tell ya, I don't buy into ____ / actually that person's views are offensive to me because ___" is just intellectual masturbation.

I haven't seen anyone tell someone how to feel about their decision to submit. I have seen several conversations about philosophies, theories, beliefs re: submission, in which people may or may not agree, but I haven't seen anything telling someone to stop feeling the way they do.
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Actually it is my belief that a sub has to be genuinely aware of their feelings about submission before they will submit. The original post was about what constitutes a "healthy" choice for a sub or whether the choices made to submit are about how we as subs "cope" in this world. I only speak for myself and I know that some of the hardest stuff for me as a sub was first recognizing my submissiveness and then figuring out what that meant for me in real life. I have children as well and I have seen how my struggle to figure out this power dynamic in a relationship affects them especially my daughter. I do agree that many of the things that you have talked about here are extremely hard things as well and am thankful that many if those struggles have passed me by so far.

I did not say your post spoke to me as part of the BDSM community I said I appreciate you airing your view. I do not do fluff and the words I use are usually done for a reason. I do not participate in the belief that you must agree with me to talk about it and after many very interesting points of view I can say that I am rarely offended. Perhaps I have read some posts you have not because I was told in no uncertain terms that a dominant man could not "tell" some of the posters here what to feel about their submission.

I asked for your take on these questions by starting this thread here and opening it up for discussion. I do not agree with all of your opinions but I am very thankful that you have taken the time and allowed us to see many of your views.

Thanks
 
All_4_Love said:
What I believe is that you're a very condescending woman and that a discussion or plea towards any compassion from you is hopeless. You can sugar coat, name drop, and hang on the tails of your superiority and BDSM expertise all you need to to keep that up, but it has no effect on me. Perhaps, your intended audience will better benefit.

I know the woman that I am. I know the woman that I came here and held myself up as. I am a late 30s submissive WOMAN. I have 2 beautiful children that I live for every day. I have a past and a future. I have manners. I have empathy. I have self esteem.

I most certainly had no other agenda coming here other than to make friends. Maybe I should have just started a thread about how to suck a cock...
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Hello All_4_Love. I have seen your genuineness in many of the posts you have left here. I know that you have felt a bit put upon by some of the very strong reactions of other LIT posters but I am still glad you participated in the whole discussion. You offer a valid insight into this topic and I believe you know how I feel about our friendship. I would like to extend an invitation to you that was extended to me.

Please come and have some cake and tea with Bdsmshade, myself and a few of the others here.
Differing opinions are just that and should not prevent one from being friends. After all, in life, you do not agree 100% of the time with those you have chosen to share your friendship with.
 
cmslt2326 said:
Actually it is my belief that a sub has to be genuinely aware of their feelings about submission before they will submit. The original post was about what constitutes a "healthy" choice for a sub or whether the choices made to submit are about how we as subs "cope" in this world. I only speak for myself and I know that some of the hardest stuff for me as a sub was first recognizing my submissiveness and then figuring out what that meant for me in real life. I have children as well and I have seen how my struggle to figure out this power dynamic in a relationship affects them especially my daughter. I do agree that many of the things that you have talked about here are extremely hard things as well and am thankful that many if those struggles have passed me by so far.
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Maybe one of the differences in our perspective, is that the awareness and feelings you mention are things that I believe ALL people have to face on their journey to self-acceptance. I believe many people take on the label of submissive to hide from the responsibilities of adulthood; in that sense, I agree with you that it is better to be aware of one's feelings [belief, philosophy] of submission before submitting... however, if one waits until true understanding has been achieved, the right opportunity to submit may never occur.

I did not say your post spoke to me as part of the BDSM community I said I appreciate you airing your view. I do not do fluff and the words I use are usually done for a reason. I do not participate in the belief that you must agree with me to talk about it and after many very interesting points of view I can say that I am rarely offended. Perhaps I have read some posts you have not because I was told in no uncertain terms that a dominant man could not "tell" some of the posters here what to feel about their submission.


I asked for your take on these questions by starting this thread here and opening it up for discussion. I do not agree with all of your opinions but I am very thankful that you have taken the time and allowed us to see many of your views.

Thanks
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I think I know the comment you're referring to, and maybe we just see it differently. Perhaps you took it more literally than I? Because the way I read it was if a dominant male tries to tell me what my experience as a submissive female is, I'm going to chuckle and move on. The same way I would expect him to chuckle and move on, if I tried to tell him (as a submissive female) what his (dominant male) experience was.
 
CutieMouse said:
Maybe one of the differences in our perspective, is that the awareness and feelings you mention are things that I believe ALL people have to face on their journey to self-acceptance. I believe many people take on the label of submissive to hide from the responsibilities of adulthood; in that sense, I agree with you that it is better to be aware of one's feelings [belief, philosophy] of submission before submitting... however, if one waits until true understanding has been achieved, the right opportunity to submit may never occur.



I think I know the comment you're referring to, and maybe we just see it differently. Perhaps you took it more literally than I? Because the way I read it was if a dominant male tries to tell me what my experience as a submissive female is, I'm going to chuckle and move on. The same way I would expect him to chuckle and move on, if I tried to tell him (as a submissive female) what his (dominant male) experience was.
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I do agree that living the life of a sub is an ongoing real life experience. I also agree that there is but one way to do it and that is to live it every day instead of waiting until you have all the answers and missing the opportunities to submit. I am sure that everyone at some point must honestly face who they are.

The only reason I think it may be more challenging for subs and DOMs is because of the way society in general and your friends and family in particular may deal. Whether I like it or not in my journey I have found that the opinions of those closest to me affect my self-acceptance. The good news is that as I get older others affect me less and less and being true to who I am matters most

Thank goodness, I for one, have never tried to tell my DOM what his experience was/is. He would simply shake his head or laugh at me I am sure. The comment to which I referred did not involve chuckling and moving on which is how I would probably respond also. It was clearly stated to have "pissed off" the writer.
 
StrayKat said:
You go on like that and I will be tempted to offer you a job in my kitchen ;)
/QUOTE]

I'm not really that good in the kitchen only other thing I make well are jammy devils real ankh-morpork food sticks to your ribs and warm you up on a cold day, kind of cross between cup cake and jam roll. But I do except various punishments as payment :)
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Netzach said:
Seriously, this is like someone posting "I think Anthony Bourdain is a dick and Guy Fieri and his stupid pepper laced meat schtick is fucking awesome" and me taking it personally and garnering a hundred pages.
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For me it feels more:

"Guy Fieri is a dick for saying that the taste of meat can be predicted by watching the pig."
"That's not what he said. He said that different breeds of pigs have different qualities. What you can see is the breed of a pig."
"I ate five steaks last week, they all tasted great!"


*shrugs*
 
Primalex said:
For me it feels more:

"Guy Fieri is a dick for saying that the taste of meat can be predicted by watching the pig."
"That's not what he said. He said that different breeds of pigs have different qualities. What you can see is the breed of a pig."
"I ate five steaks last week, they all tasted great!"


*shrugs*
Click to expand...

I know what that pig was eating from the way it tastes.

Do I know anything about terroir, pigs, pig feed, acorns, sausages or food tasting? Actually I'm a vegetarian, but believe me I JUST KNOW.

How dare anyone ask how I came to a conclusion?
 
Well, I haven't read through the whole thread yet - but that may take a while. . .

I read Yalda Tovah's article on submissivewomenspeak many years ago, and felt the scales fall from my eyes. It has that effect on some people. And because of the validation I thought I was receiving via these words, I went on to become what I am today.

I'm much happier as a result. That's good enough for me. :D
 
eastern sun said:
Well, I haven't read through the whole thread yet - but that may take a while. . .

I read Yalda Tovah's article on submissivewomenspeak many years ago, and felt the scales fall from my eyes. It has that effect on some people. And because of the validation I thought I was receiving via these words, I went on to become what I am today.

I'm much happier as a result. That's good enough for me. :D
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Thank you for sharing this. I only speak for myself but living a life that satisfies something deep inside me makes for a much happier me too. I appreciate your feedback.
 
For me personally, it's always been naturally submissive. I was raised to have an open mind, so once I realized that this whole submissive /dominate thing was a way to have a relationship...... I went hunting. I didn't go from dom to dom and sure as hell wasn't submissive to just any dude out there. I found a dude with a dominating personality and we both learned together.

Submissive is however a person wants it to be in my opinion. Some like hardcore, micromanaged stuff, others like it more on the mild side. I was never abused, or raped, or beaten or anything to consider myself "damaged" in that aspect. I had perverted parents that corrupted my poor little brain lol, but nothing abusive by any means.

I don't cope with my submission. It's a want to and a need to, it's just simply how I am and have always been. /shrug.. Some people have deep down core issues, others don't.. For some it is also therapeutic for whatever stress they might be going through.

Everyone is different, there is no right or wrong way to being a submissive.

This is my own personal take on it though.
 
Yalda Tovah is a legend in the Greek BDSM community. Her articles, The healthy submissive, and most importantly, The troubled submissive, were translated into Greek in the very early days of the Greek BDSM community, when there were but a few hundred people, at most, who had ever even heard of BDSM.

First of all, please let me say that in Greece Yalda Tovah has always been considered as a female submissive - regardless of who has picked up her articles and posted them on their site. If you look up the words, you will find out that Yalda Tovah means "good girl" in Hebrew. So it is in general assumed that a nice, good, submissive girl wanted to share her very thoughtful views with others, attempting to make her own submissive nature and its origins understood. At any rate, both articles are written in such a delicately incisive manner, which is very unlikely to have been mastered by a male author.

Therefore, if that is truly the case, it seems to me that comments about the "male author's" limited point of view seem unjust in light of the above.

I tried to find Yalda Tovah on the Internet, but it was impossible. I found only a source that mentioned that she was a doctor. I am sorry but I do not remember the source - though I could try and locate it again.

I find Yalda Tovah's views on the origins of submissiveness very sensible. I am not sure that there can be any definitive answer to such questions as she poses, not before some serious research is done - and I think it is being done, in Greece at least there has been research going on by sociologists and psychologists. But I must say that, judging from the controversy that the two articles generate, here and elsewhere, one thing is clear: submissiveness is not to be easily understood by people who do not possess it. And that is what causes the arguments, in my opinion - heated ones, unfortunately. (If you think this is a fight, come to a Greek forum and see for yourself what a fight is, lol).

My thanks to the OP for spreading the info on those two very good articles by Yalda Tovah!
 
I am pleased that you shared your input and knowledge about the author here for us today. When I started this thread the whole point was to open up a dialogue about submissiveness.
Whether choosing to submit was a healthy voluntary choice, a compunction, or even a way to cope with submissive tendencies in today's society is the point of this discussion and I have been very pleased by the responses disagreements and all. I was interested in other views about the subject and their perspective on it and I have learned quite a bit...I am happy you responded and enlightened me more...Thank you.
 
dora_salonica said:
Yalda Tovah is a legend in the Greek BDSM community. Her articles, The healthy submissive, and most importantly, The troubled submissive, were translated into Greek in the very early days of the Greek BDSM community, when there were but a few hundred people, at most, who had ever even heard of BDSM.

First of all, please let me say that in Greece Yalda Tovah has always been considered as a female submissive - regardless of who has picked up her articles and posted them on their site. If you look up the words, you will find out that Yalda Tovah means "good girl" in Hebrew. So it is in general assumed that a nice, good, submissive girl wanted to share her very thoughtful views with others, attempting to make her own submissive nature and its origins understood. At any rate, both articles are written in such a delicately incisive manner, which is very unlikely to have been mastered by a male author.

Therefore, if that is truly the case, it seems to me that comments about the "male author's" limited point of view seem unjust in light of the above.

I tried to find Yalda Tovah on the Internet, but it was impossible. I found only a source that mentioned that she was a doctor. I am sorry but I do not remember the source - though I could try and locate it again.

I find Yalda Tovah's views on the origins of submissiveness very sensible. I am not sure that there can be any definitive answer to such questions as she poses, not before some serious research is done - and I think it is being done, in Greece at least there has been research going on by sociologists and psychologists. But I must say that, judging from the controversy that the two articles generate, here and elsewhere, one thing is clear: submissiveness is not to be easily understood by people who do not possess it. And that is what causes the arguments, in my opinion - heated ones, unfortunately. (If you think this is a fight, come to a Greek forum and see for yourself what a fight is, lol).

My thanks to the OP for spreading the info on those two very good articles by Yalda Tovah!
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So very interesting!

I have been confused by the website all of these years because I thought that the master, Tanos, writing the articles on slavery, (and also his slave Lili wrote wonderful articles, too), was the same person that wrote the "Healthy Submissive" article.

How awesome that it was written by a female submissive! I am so glad to know that!

ETA: Hi cmslt... I hope you're doing well, friend. *hug*
 
I spent most of my life as a dom/top, occasionally playing short-term subbie roles just for a night or two - I greatly enjoyed being in charge and planning elaborate schemes and scenes, I have a very creative imagination and I thrived on it. Having been married now 20 years, my wife has been the main target of my attention and my efforts. We joined a couple of BDSM groups down here years ago, I learned quite a bit from several wonderfully friendly and sharing dominatrix's, and it's been a fascinating way of life. A couple of months back, however, we flipped roles - my wife is now learning (slowly but gaining confidence quite well) to be the domme and is enjoying her new-found role. Likewise, I am absolutely loving my "new" position on the other side of the fence.

Even as a dom, my overpowering motive was to make the sub feel like they were the focus of all attention, all actions, all experiences; good, bad, humiliating, and exciting - and they were. I derived my pleasure from seeing them in their state. Now, I am deriving my pleasure from still being in complete servitude and being completely out of control. I still live to serve and still am allowed to deliver as much pleasure to my Mistress as she wants, and I find it absolutely marvelous.

I suppose the biggest change, or perk to me in being a sub is having worry and care completely taken away. I am no longer driving my life (sexually at least), so I don't worry about much of anything - I've never had that before and it's quite amazing. :eek:
 
All_4_Love said:
So very interesting!

I have been confused by the website all of these years because I thought that the master, Tanos, writing the articles on slavery, (and also his slave Lili wrote wonderful articles, too), was the same person that wrote the "Healthy Submissive" article.

How awesome that it was written by a female submissive! I am so glad to know that!
Click to expand...

I am glad this information might come in useful!

cmslt2326 said:
I am pleased that you shared your input and knowledge about the author here for us today. When I started this thread the whole point was to open up a dialogue about submissiveness.
Whether choosing to submit was a healthy voluntary choice, a compunction, or even a way to cope with submissive tendencies in today's society is the point of this discussion and I have been very pleased by the responses disagreements and all. I was interested in other views about the subject and their perspective on it and I have learned quite a bit...I am happy you responded and enlightened me more...Thank you.
Click to expand...

You are very welcome. I also found the discussion extremely interesting! And I hope it goes on some more...
 
cmslt2326 said:
What constitutes a healthy submissive? Is it the choice to submit.....the choice to follow......the choice to obey etc?

Or are we all just a little damaged in someway and this is how we cope?

Please respond and give me your feedback

D
Click to expand...


It seems to me that your mental and emotional health is primarily a function of why you make certain decisions more so than the decisions themselves.

That comes from your emotions and desires. Personally I don't think we can understand our emotions in a purely analytical way. Our best approach is to open ourselves up to them. And I think the starting point is to understand that we have little to no control over our emotions. We can try to control our reaction to an emotion. We can remove ourselves from or expose ourselves to circumstance that give rise to certain emotions. We can choose to look at a given circumstance from other perspectives and that additional information my induce a genuine change in emotional response. But at no point do we have control of what the emotion will be. If someone does something that makes you angry, you can choose to be gracious, walk away, reconsider their perspective in an empathetic way and consciously move on from the incident....but you cant simply will yourself to have a viscerally joyful reaction.

The reason I think this is important is because getting in touch with your true emotions requires you to internalize the truth that you can't change how you feel about being submissive. You can accept the emotions for what they are or delude yourself by trying to delegitimize them but they won't go away or cease to be relevant. Every element of you is a function of both nature and nurture. The whole package is indivisible. Looking at your life experiences objectively helps inform you and that information may or may not illicit a genuine, but almost entirely involuntary, change in emotional response.

Obviously, your head has to kick in to gear for your best interest, but it will be better equipped to do so with a true view of your emotions. Maybe you do like being Sub because you have daddy issues. So what? The implications of that are much different if you are driven by insecurity than if you are driven by a sincere sense of well being under the control of dominant partner.
 
SlutAddicted said:
Obviously, your head has to kick in to gear for your best interest, but it will be better equipped to do so with a true view of your emotions. Maybe you do like being Sub because you have daddy issues. So what? The implications of that are much different if you are driven by insecurity than if you are driven by a sincere sense of well being under the control of dominant partner.
Click to expand...

This. Absolutely this. I love it.

Your entire post was wonderful, but this part, amazing. :)
 
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