Bramblethorn
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+1. I also thought (and should've said) that HH's response was victim-blame-y and inappropriate.
Handling an awkward situation
- Thread starter townieamy
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+1. I also thought (and should've said) that HH's response was victim-blame-y and inappropriate.
BuckyDuckman
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Your son, regardless of age, violated your privacy with a criminal act.
Furthermore, substitute you for anyone else. Perhaps your underage niece? Your mother? Changes the perspective, doesn't it? If he did it to you, how can you guess or assume that he wouldn't do it to someone else, too?
If he has a video of you on his computer, who's to say he hasn't already shared that video?
My opinion? You're a fool if you do not act immediately. Delete the video from his computer. Genuinely consider confiscating the laptop and doing a thorough search for whatever else he may have.
Search everywhere for whatever recording equipment he may have and confiscate that, too.
Your house, your rules. If he doesn't like it, then he can move.
bailadora
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Good advice here. Although, if it were me, I wouldn't have a clue as to what I'd be looking for. My kids are considerably more tech savvy than I am. Thankfully, my husband is pretty tech savvy himself, so he stays on top of all our problems. But if I were on my own, I'd have to ask for help.
Amy, if neither you nor your husband feel up to this task, is there a trusted relative or friend who could help you? One whom you trusted to be discreet and to keep your confidence?
J
JAMESBJOHNSON
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Call the police, if your conscience is clear.
Harold_Hill
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You want to know why my opinion is so harsh? I will tell you why my opinion is so harsh! You know how many times I see young, 18 year old men posting on incest threads here saying: "I think my mom is coming on to me, how can I seduce her?" And the advice every time, (and I mean every time), is "leave your computer on with a file titled *mom* on the desktop so she can find it and see what she does." And what did you do? Instead of straightening out your perverted little son, you came here trying to turn yourself into a victim. If you want to know what is wrong with your son, go look in the mirror: *YOU* raised him! Whether you intended to or not, he is what you raised him, (or didn't raise him), to be. You're not a victim, just a poor parent, and I don't have any sympathy for poor parenting. We have enough sex offenders in this world today without raising more.
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Harold_Hill
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bailadora
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Parents can try to rear their kids in the most moral, upstanding, and ethical ways possible, yet still have the kid reject everything their parents tried to instill in them. I've seen it happen within my own social circle. Despite everything the parents tried to do (reasoning, pleading, counseling, tough love, you name it), the kid insisted on going his own way and making poor choices. Last I knew, he had run away from home and hasn't been heard from in over a year.
Sometimes a kid's negative behavior *is* a reflection of poor parenting. But sometimes it's not. And given that we really know fuck all about Amy's home life or her parenting style, I, for one, prefer to give her the benefit of the doubt.
Amy, if you haven't found it yet, there's an ignore feature on this board. Let me know if you need help accessing it.
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Bramblethorn
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Do piss off, there's a good chap. The grown-ups are trying to talk here.
Harold_Hill
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You are right, some kids are lost no matter what the parents do. But that is the exception, not the rule. The normal thing for any mother to do when her son is this far out of line is to go to the child's father, (hopefully her current husband in this case), and say: *WE* have a problem with *OUR* son, and *WE* have to do something about it! But she didn't do that, instead she came here portraying herself as a victim. Doesn't the boy have a father, or at least a father figure?
GiggLeGasm
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It appears that I had previously misread Harold's intention. In retrospect, I apologize for defending him and suggesting that he was only offering a different perspective.
There are 100 scenarios that could be possible. There is no need to be cruel or hurtful with any of them. It really is impossible to define what a "normal" person would do with the limited details that have been presented.
There are 100 scenarios that could be possible. There is no need to be cruel or hurtful with any of them. It really is impossible to define what a "normal" person would do with the limited details that have been presented.
bailadora
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Victim - a person who is deceived or cheated by the dishonesty of others. Hmmm. Sure sounds like she fits the definition to me.
Elsewhere on Lit, Amy does mention being married but beyond that, she says little else. Is he the kid's father? I dunno. Is he an involved dad (step or otherwise)? Again, dunno. At this point, it's all speculation.
But even if dad is on the scene, there's no guarantee she'd have support from him. A good friend of mine is currently rearing three kids all on her own. Her ex is so morally reprehensible (that's why he's now her ex), that if she were to take an issue like this to him, he'd tell her that it's her problem. He's too busy with his new wife to give a flying fuck.
The point is, Harold, without being privy to all the details, it is VERY easy to armchair quarterback other people's decisions and actions. I fully admit, I'm not immune to this. But since being on Lit, I've learned to ask a lot more questions, and I'd like to think it has helped me to broaden my understanding of people.
This may be reaching, but it seems to me that you're baffled as to why Amy didn't come down on him like a ton of bricks, since that's how YOU would have handled the same situation. But instead of accusing her of bringing this on herself, or of being a poor parent, perhaps you could just ASK her why she chose to act as she did, rather than jumping to wild and possibly erroneous conclusions.
Call me crazy, but if the purpose of this forum is to keep conversation going (and I rather think it is, given the type of people who regularly congregate here), then I would think this approach is much more conducive to this endeavor. Although it was in reference to something entirely different, Stella Omega said something in another thread that I think is applicable here: "Experience has shown me that most people won't listen to anything the first time they hear it-- but most people really won't listen to anger and disgust ever. That's a profound discovery, for me."
Have you noticed how even though you and I are in disagreement, we're still managing to have a civilized conversation? How different would that have been if I had opined that you were a misogynistic, close minded bigot for what you said to Amy? Somehow, I don't think we'd be having this same conversation. If you want people to listen to what you have to say, how you approach them matters.
You can, of course, continue as you see fit. But given the tone of your posts, I rather doubt they're as effective as you think they are. Just a thought.
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J
JAMESBJOHNSON
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I hadda few patients who murdered other children, one teen murdered mom when mom caught sis in bed with a drug dealer. Sis and the dealer weren't even nice about how they killed Ma. And Ma wasn't a monster, she simply had rules.
I put my youngest daughter in jail for 7 months, and it was the cure.
I put my youngest daughter in jail for 7 months, and it was the cure.
Harold_Hill
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There is no reason for you or I, (or anyone else for that matter), to have an uncivilized conversation just because we have opposing opinions. This is an open forum, and when someone posts here asking for advice, (such as Amy), they open themselves to whatever the posters opinions may be. Everyone has a right to their own opinion, and under the posting rules of Lit, everyone has a right to voice that opinion. And being the case, under the posting rules of Lit, I am simply voicing my opinion, as unpopular as it may be. I have never been one to try to win popularity contests.
True, by definition Amy is a victim; however, the overriding issue here is, this is her son, not some random thug on the street. My experience as a parent has been, when you have an issue this serious with a child, the longer you delay dealing with it, the more difficult it becomes, and the more the child becomes convinced they have gotten away with it. When it comes to young men and sex, no doesn't always mean no, sometimes they think it means, I just haven't convinced her yet. And the longer Amy puts this off, the weaker her resistance to his advances will appear to her son, and in the end he can start to believe that no doesn't mean no; rather, he could start to think even though she said no, she will really means maybe. In my opinion, this is one issue a parent, (particularly a mother), has to deal with quickly and harshly. Her son has to realize that no not only means no, it means don't even think about it. But I think she may have already passed that window.
To elaborate a bit farther on Amy being a victim, she hasn't actually been attacked, she has only been offended, and being offended doesn't automatically make a person of victim. If we allow ourselves to be victimized by offensive opinions or behavior, none of us would be able to function as human beings. In my opinion, (as unpopular as it may be), I think Amy should get over it and deal with her son's bad behavior. Which is more important, the child's future behavior, or the parents hurt feelings?
To answer your question: "How different would that have been if I had opined that you were a misogynistic, close minded bigot". I would have ignored your post, just as I ignore other posts made in anger. Much to your credit, even though you likely do think of me as a misogynistic, close minded bigot, you are able to maintain a civilized conversation. You are right, I don't listen to anger and disgust.
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fire_breeze
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I am truly hoping that this is a typo because Baila is able to maintain a civilised conversation with Stalin himself. She is one of the most open-minded person I ever had the pleasure of meeting. Even when she vehemently disagrees and calls out on someone's bullshit, she does it with politeness, respect and compassion. She has shown nothing but civility, open-mindedness and fairness in discussing and debating with you.
For what it's worth, she never called you a misogynistic, close-minded bigot. The conjunction 'if' in her conditional clause is indicative of a hypothetical scenario in which Baila used to illustrate her point.
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Eilan
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Uh, yeah.I am truly hoping that this is a typo because Baila is able to maintain a civilised conversation with Stalin himself. She is one of the most open-minded person I ever had the pleasure of meeting. Even when she vehemently disagrees and calls out on someone's bullshit, she does it with politeness, respect and compassion. She has shown nothing but civility, open-mindedness and fairness in discussing and debating with you.
For what it's worth, she never called you a misogynistic, close-minded bigot. The conjunction 'if' in her conditional clause is indicative of a hypothetical scenario in which Baila used to illustrate her point.
Bramblethorn
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Yep. And when your opinion is based primarily on wild speculation about things you don't know, and follows a long tradition of blaming women for sexual offences committed against them, the rest of us have the right to call you a misogynist arsehole.
If you look at my first comment in this thread, you'll see that I expressed a similar sentiment. I indicated that the OP does have a responsibility to address this, if not for her own sake then as a matter of parental responsibility. And yet I was able to do that without making any victim-blame-y assumptions about how this situation might have arisen, stuff like this:
It's absolutely repulsive to suggest that a woman is "at fault" for being caught by a hidden camera, behind a closed door. Do you sweep the bathroom for bugs every time you take a dump?
She hasn't "only been offended". She was FILMED MASTURBATING NAKED WITHOUT HER KNOWLEDGE OR CONSENT. That's a serious violation of boundaries that would be distressing to almost anybody.
(The stock misogynist response at this point is to compare to all the "worse things" that could happen to a woman, physical violence etc, and then accuse me of trivialising those things by acknowledging this one as a violation. aka fallacy of relative privation.)
Harold_Hill
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I am truly hoping that this is a typo because Baila is able to maintain a civilised conversation with Stalin himself. She is one of the most open-minded person I ever had the pleasure of meeting. Even when she vehemently disagrees and calls out on someone's bullshit, she does it with politeness, respect and compassion. She has shown nothing but civility, open-mindedness and fairness in discussing and debating with you.
For what it's worth, she never called you a misogynistic, close-minded bigot. The conjunction 'if' in her conditional clause is indicative of a hypothetical scenario in which Baila used to illustrate her point.
It was a typo. Thank you for pointing that out. I corrected it. I sometimes use voice recognition when writing and it does make mistakes. I should have proofed it better.
I know she didn't call me a misogynistic, close-minded bigot, but I have been around for awhile and know Bailadora is very passionate about her opinions, (as she should be). And I do have to admit, she is holding her temper much better these days.
A year or two ago, she wouldn't have been so kind. 
SlutAddicted
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perspective
I agree with those that say this situation must be addressed. Your son has stepped over a line that can't be ignored. I think anything I have to say about how to address it would be pure conjecture since I don't know any of the individuals involved. However, as a man I would add the following perspective.
In most cases an 18 year old is not a man. He is legally a man and he may inhabit a man's body. But on the inside he is a scrambled mess of sexual urges and hormones. This is the stage in life where he needs to figure out how to get that shit together but arguably not the stage where it is realistic to expect that he has it together.
The fact that he has these urges is not as unusual as you might think. He stepped over the line by acting on the urges and committing a criminal offence in the process. If he had just stayed in his room and beat off he wouldn't be much different than any other adolescent male with an Oedipus complex. There is a reason that there is a name for it.
We sometimes struggle to comprehend what goes on in the minds of the opposite sex. Consider that for most women the reference point of what constitutes a healthy male attitude is a bit of a facade. We are conditioned to hide the horny dirtbag side of ourselves. If you could compare an unvarnished view of men to this unpleasant glimpse of your son he may not seem like such an aberration.
If it were me I would address the specific actions and invasion of privacy. Make it very clear that you view his actions as inappropriate and his sexual interest unwelcome and the manner in which that message is communicated may need to be quite aggressive. But don't make him feel like a dirtbag for having urges that he does not control. It won't work and it will just drive him away and erode his sense of self worth in a way the will cause lasting damage.
If his urges are unhealthy and out of control that is another matter and a very dangerous one. But I think you and he will be better able to understand the situation if you separate the issue of privacy invasion from the nature and extent of his sexual urges.
I agree with those that say this situation must be addressed. Your son has stepped over a line that can't be ignored. I think anything I have to say about how to address it would be pure conjecture since I don't know any of the individuals involved. However, as a man I would add the following perspective.
In most cases an 18 year old is not a man. He is legally a man and he may inhabit a man's body. But on the inside he is a scrambled mess of sexual urges and hormones. This is the stage in life where he needs to figure out how to get that shit together but arguably not the stage where it is realistic to expect that he has it together.
The fact that he has these urges is not as unusual as you might think. He stepped over the line by acting on the urges and committing a criminal offence in the process. If he had just stayed in his room and beat off he wouldn't be much different than any other adolescent male with an Oedipus complex. There is a reason that there is a name for it.
We sometimes struggle to comprehend what goes on in the minds of the opposite sex. Consider that for most women the reference point of what constitutes a healthy male attitude is a bit of a facade. We are conditioned to hide the horny dirtbag side of ourselves. If you could compare an unvarnished view of men to this unpleasant glimpse of your son he may not seem like such an aberration.
If it were me I would address the specific actions and invasion of privacy. Make it very clear that you view his actions as inappropriate and his sexual interest unwelcome and the manner in which that message is communicated may need to be quite aggressive. But don't make him feel like a dirtbag for having urges that he does not control. It won't work and it will just drive him away and erode his sense of self worth in a way the will cause lasting damage.
If his urges are unhealthy and out of control that is another matter and a very dangerous one. But I think you and he will be better able to understand the situation if you separate the issue of privacy invasion from the nature and extent of his sexual urges.
bailadora
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Probably. But it irritates my sense of fairness to see someone on the receiving end of such invective when there is little evidence to suggest it is warranted.
Ktownmale63
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As a son who spied on his mother and always had a desire for her sexually i would find ways to see her. Never her fault just my desire was so over whelming i could not stand it it consumed me daily for years. I never had sex with her and as far as i know she never knew. Having said that those were special days for me. Its hard to understand how controling those feeling were and even now the incest factor is strong in my fantasies. My only incest interaction was with my brother and at his choice. I and your son know we crossed a line but it can be so very overwhelming. Good luck be understanding.
cyberking001
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your son
let's bring this discussion back to the original question.
1) what your son did is a criminal offence. being 18, he could be arrested and charged criminally. in fact, if you wanted to go to the police, you could ask to have him charged and they would be only too happy to arrest him. you need to tell him this.
2) what your son did is a total invasion of your privacy. the fact that the door may have been open or that it may have been clear glass is totally irrelevant. you need to tell him this, too. does he also listen in on your phone conversations and open your mail?
3) you need to have your son show you every camera in the house and together disconnect them and throw them away. you also need to take every computer and cell phone in the house to a professional to have them cleaned of all such videos.
4) as was previously said, what if your son did this with someone else? a girl friend, her mother, someone at school, anyone else? in fact, maybe he already has. if so, he is once again wide open to arrest and multiple criminal charges.
5) finally you need him to tell you honestly if he has EVER posted videos of you anywhere on the net or shared them with anyone, and if so, where and with whom. you then need to personally contact every one of those people and ask them to remove any such videos, even though it is now too late.
it is one thing for a child to have a sexual fantasy about a parent (lots of them do). it is totally something else for a child to act on these fantasies in the manner that he did.
despite what anyone may tell you, i do not believe that you have shown any lack of parenting skills, nor did you encourage or lead on your son. if you have any lingering feelings of guilt over his behaviour, please put them into a box and discard them into the trash where they belong.
please follow up and let us know how your discussions with him have gone, and your progress on removing the hardware and videos from your home. we care.
sam
let's bring this discussion back to the original question.
1) what your son did is a criminal offence. being 18, he could be arrested and charged criminally. in fact, if you wanted to go to the police, you could ask to have him charged and they would be only too happy to arrest him. you need to tell him this.
2) what your son did is a total invasion of your privacy. the fact that the door may have been open or that it may have been clear glass is totally irrelevant. you need to tell him this, too. does he also listen in on your phone conversations and open your mail?
3) you need to have your son show you every camera in the house and together disconnect them and throw them away. you also need to take every computer and cell phone in the house to a professional to have them cleaned of all such videos.
4) as was previously said, what if your son did this with someone else? a girl friend, her mother, someone at school, anyone else? in fact, maybe he already has. if so, he is once again wide open to arrest and multiple criminal charges.
5) finally you need him to tell you honestly if he has EVER posted videos of you anywhere on the net or shared them with anyone, and if so, where and with whom. you then need to personally contact every one of those people and ask them to remove any such videos, even though it is now too late.
it is one thing for a child to have a sexual fantasy about a parent (lots of them do). it is totally something else for a child to act on these fantasies in the manner that he did.
despite what anyone may tell you, i do not believe that you have shown any lack of parenting skills, nor did you encourage or lead on your son. if you have any lingering feelings of guilt over his behaviour, please put them into a box and discard them into the trash where they belong.
please follow up and let us know how your discussions with him have gone, and your progress on removing the hardware and videos from your home. we care.
sam
bailadora
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Harold, your assertion that Amy is not a victim is an out and out falsehood. If being the unwilling object of someone else’s voyeurism were merely a matter of offended sensibilities, there would be no laws against it. But as far as I’m aware, just about every jurisdiction in the US has statutes against Peeping Toms. So you are patently off base and how you even have the guts to suggest otherwise is, quite frankly, mindboggling. As is the contention that an attack need be physical to be categorized as such. But that is a subject for a different thread.
That Amy has a responsibility to deal with her son’s behavior has never been in dispute, which is why many other people in this thread offered advice similar to yours. Interestingly enough, while Amy was receptive to the rest of us, the only person to whom she had a negative response was you. After witnessing you toss out statements like this:
it doesn’t take a genius to see why. It has been repeatedly pointed out that too little information has been given for such wild conjecture to be reached, and yet you continue to spout off as if you are on scene and are privy to all the pertinent details of this situation. You have no clue as to the timeline of events (“the other day” is a subjective term), nor do you have any idea of what measures Amy has taken since posting this question.
This is a salient point, one which you have yet to satisfactorily refute, I might add. To be quite honest with you, how you fail to recognize this is beyond comprehension. I haven’t quite decided if this truly escapes you, or if you’re being deliberately obtuse. Truthfully? I’m leaning towards the latter.
I would also add that I’m not the only person to have brought this up. I do believe it was mentioned by SugarTitties, Bramblethorn, and Gigglegasm, to name a few. The impression given is that their posts were studiously ignored by you because you didn't care for the manner of their delivery:
Thus proving my point. Advice or information given in anger and disgust, no matter the validity, is often ignored and falls on deaf ears. You asked me what was more important, a child’s future or a parent’s offended sensibilities? I offer you a question for a question: What is more important, offering sound advice in a manner that will be received and that will actually make a difference, or dogmatic insistence upon defending a theory that has no basis in fact? Because to be honest with you, Harold, it sure seems like you’re more interested in the latter than you are the former.
You are quite correct that under Lit’s forum guidelines you are free to post your opinions as you see fit. Likewise, as Bram has already pointed out, others are equally as free to point out the flaws in your logic and call you on it. I do find it extremely ironic though, that you would say the above in the same paragraph as you say this:
Because the behavior you have demonstrated towards Amy certainly doesn’t lend credibility to that statement.
I didn’t think I was going to change your mind, but I did give it my best shot and hopefully others who read and contribute to this thread down the line will be more inclined to give Amy a fairer shake. That said, Garnate did make a valid point, so I’ll be bowing out from here. If you want to continue this debate, I’m amenable to taking it to private message. And with that, I’m out of here folks. I thank you for your indulgence.
That Amy has a responsibility to deal with her son’s behavior has never been in dispute, which is why many other people in this thread offered advice similar to yours. Interestingly enough, while Amy was receptive to the rest of us, the only person to whom she had a negative response was you. After witnessing you toss out statements like this:
it doesn’t take a genius to see why. It has been repeatedly pointed out that too little information has been given for such wild conjecture to be reached, and yet you continue to spout off as if you are on scene and are privy to all the pertinent details of this situation. You have no clue as to the timeline of events (“the other day” is a subjective term), nor do you have any idea of what measures Amy has taken since posting this question.
This is a salient point, one which you have yet to satisfactorily refute, I might add. To be quite honest with you, how you fail to recognize this is beyond comprehension. I haven’t quite decided if this truly escapes you, or if you’re being deliberately obtuse. Truthfully? I’m leaning towards the latter.
I would also add that I’m not the only person to have brought this up. I do believe it was mentioned by SugarTitties, Bramblethorn, and Gigglegasm, to name a few. The impression given is that their posts were studiously ignored by you because you didn't care for the manner of their delivery:
Thus proving my point. Advice or information given in anger and disgust, no matter the validity, is often ignored and falls on deaf ears. You asked me what was more important, a child’s future or a parent’s offended sensibilities? I offer you a question for a question: What is more important, offering sound advice in a manner that will be received and that will actually make a difference, or dogmatic insistence upon defending a theory that has no basis in fact? Because to be honest with you, Harold, it sure seems like you’re more interested in the latter than you are the former.
You are quite correct that under Lit’s forum guidelines you are free to post your opinions as you see fit. Likewise, as Bram has already pointed out, others are equally as free to point out the flaws in your logic and call you on it. I do find it extremely ironic though, that you would say the above in the same paragraph as you say this:
Because the behavior you have demonstrated towards Amy certainly doesn’t lend credibility to that statement.
I didn’t think I was going to change your mind, but I did give it my best shot and hopefully others who read and contribute to this thread down the line will be more inclined to give Amy a fairer shake. That said, Garnate did make a valid point, so I’ll be bowing out from here. If you want to continue this debate, I’m amenable to taking it to private message. And with that, I’m out of here folks. I thank you for your indulgence.
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Bramblethorn
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