How do you like to hurt?

Recidiva said:

Part of me being a good human being, being a good employee, being a good daughter, being a good wife, being a good mom...has to do with doing incredibly unpleasant things because they need to be done, without a medal, and occasionally getting kicked around for it. "No good deed goes unpunished."

I think if I can remember that I'm doing it because I'm strong, and not because I'm weak, that I'm compensating for someone else's weakness by being polite and doing the hard stuff (like...if an animal makes a mess, a baby messes a diaper - I clean it up - everyone else is busy complaining and gagging) without complaint, I get stronger every day. The world's a better place. I'm doing it for the world, not for the complaining person. I'm doing it, ultimately, for me.

I don't think the person or creature demeaning a valuable act or making the mess is the strong one. The person able to handle the unpleasant task of going about handling the drama of the event is breaking a cycle of judgment and anger and helplessness. If I can take abuse and anger and not throw it back, but deal with it through healing and compassion, I've lived up to who I want to be. To some folks that actually does qualify me as a masochist. To me, that's just who I want to be, who I aspire to be.

It's an inverted value system, but one that I think if everyone behaved the way I did - the world would be a better place. I'm living an example of tolerance and compassion. Forgiveness is a huge part of my practice, and any faith I might represent.

Lots of people would term that conditioning, victim, or weak. That I should stand up more for myself. I should demand more for myself. I should be this or that or the other. I should be more like them, selfish and demanding and myopic.

There are plenty of people standing up for themselves and complaining in the world. I'll stand up when I need to, but most of the time, I'm just going to do what I think is right, what's compassionate, what's understanding, and not fuss about it.

There are messy diapers and messes to clean up, cooking to be done, injuries to be attended, the bodies of the dead to wash. I don't consider it humiliating or demeaning or anything but doing what needs to be done. Only because it needs to be done, therefore that's why I do it. No amount of complaining or feeling superior makes a single dirty diaper go away.

No amount of objectifying, analyzing or treating me according to any other world view, will change that.

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Excellent post and philosophy.

Catalina

catalina_francisco said:

Excellent post and philosophy.

Catalina

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Thank you.

catalina_francisco said:

Excellent post and philosophy.

Catalina

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Absolutely, Recidiva, great post.

A Desert Rose said:

Absolutely, Recidiva, great post.

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This is my day for happy warm fuzzies - thank you

Forgiveness is a big thing to me. I think many times it's harder to forgive than to ask for it. And I think (I've said this before) that to not forgive is the bigger sin (choose your own word, sin works for me.)

And I think it goes hand in hand with the psychological pain I've been trying to sort out. I do keep forgiving a lot of behavior from other people, that is painful to me.

Or maybe I'm making excuses, like some abuse victims do...

Nah.

If you sign on to be occassionally tied to the whipping post, then you go on and deal with it.

Forgiveness

Recidiva said:

...<snip>...I get stronger every day. The world's a better place. I'm doing it for the world, not for the complaining person. I'm doing it, ultimately, for me.

I don't think the person or creature demeaning a valuable act or making the mess is the strong one. The person able to handle the unpleasant task of going about handling the drama of the event is breaking a cycle of judgment and anger and helplessness. If I can take abuse and anger and not throw it back, but deal with it through healing and compassion, I've lived up to who I want to be. To some folks that actually does qualify me as a masochist. To me, that's just who I want to be, who I aspire to be.

It's an inverted value system, but one that I think if everyone behaved the way I did - the world would be a better place. I'm living an example of tolerance and compassion. Forgiveness is a huge part of my practice, and any faith I might represent.

...There are plenty of people standing up for themselves and complaining in the world. I'll stand up when I need to, but most of the time, I'm just going to do what I think is right, what's compassionate, what's understanding, and not fuss about it...

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I hate to cut it up as this is a brilliant post...just thought I'd pull the parts that spoke most to me. Thank you so much for putting this into words.

I thought I'd add a quote I read on forgiveness recently (mini-hijack):

Forgiveness does not entail forgetting or denying your experiences. Forgiveness doesn't mean minimizing or denying the hurt you feel. It means acknowledging the wrongdoing, accepting the associated feelings, and letting go of holding the transgression against the person responsible. It includes giving up the expectations you held the the beliefs that things should have been different. But no, you don't forget when you forgive. You simply reduce the hold the hurt has over you. By forgiving someone you're not sending a message that the person's behavior was acceptable or that you approve of it. For less significant infractions you may be able to excuse or condone some things. Forgiveness is the big gun, called into play when you have been deeply harmed in some way. It's not a substitute for the difficult work of accepting and feeling painful emotions. Instead, think of it as a reward that you're able to bestow on yourself afterward. Forgiveness is something you do for you. No one else ever needs to know. It's a unilateral decision--yours. Forgiveness does not mean being the bigger person, being a martyr, doing the right thing. Again, you forgive for you, not because someone says you should. (end quote)

I think in the matter of returning again and again there is definately a component of forgiveness. But oftentimes I think it's a forgiveness that breeds resentment, a putting aside of ones own feelings, a giving in to what they want and need. Reading the above passage helped me put my own situation into better perspective. If I make the choice to let bygones be bygones...if I choose to put myself within that situation again...if I choose to set aside hurt and pain...then I will accept that change is not going to happen, but I want to be there anyway. I will then accept the subsequent hurts, letting them roll over my shoulder. I can accept the scraps of affection for what they're worth. Because some sort of relationship with her is better than nothing at all. And the forgiveness on my part is directed towards her but even more importantly at myself. It's an acceptance that yes, I am in a bad situation, but I can make the best of it, take what I can, learn and grow. An acknowledgement that I have a choice. There is a realization there that I don't need to beat myself up for choosing one way or another. I can forgive myself for being caught up in this. Just as I could forgive myself for leaving and cutting my family out should the situation escalate to the point it became necessary. I choose to stay. Because family is family and I love them, warts and all

The examples of the pain we take for others is interesting, but how far does it go for you (any of you)? How much will you take? If pain is going to be transformative (which is the word that comes to mind when I read recidiva's post), the relationship between the person taking the pain and the one dishing it out must continue to evolve.

Sort of like the relationship between parent and child. When they are babies, we tend to our children's every need. Cries, messes, diapers, etc. - we take all of that. But if we continue to do that when they're 2, 3, 4? Not such a good result. We want them to start learning to care for themselves a bit, learn a little patience, learn to think about others, etc. So the relationhip evolves.

Does the same hold true for your romantic relationship(s)?

Vail_Indigo said:

which is why psychology annoys me at times when it tries to oversimplify things

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Certainly pop psychology! But even the best psychologists can't fully explain the way the brain works. We just don't know enough. Still, I think psychology is fascinating, and I've found learning about myself and becoming conscious to be very empowering.

intothewoods said:

Certainly pop psychology! But even the best psychologists can't fully explain the way the brain works. We just don't know enough. Still, I think psychology is fascinating, and I've found learning about myself and becoming conscious to be very empowering.

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oh sure, its definitely interesting, but I think that there's a tendency to take a particular thesis and believe that explains everything.
(of course, this isn't just in psychology).
I don't believe any one structure explains it all

Vail_Indigo said:

oh sure, its definitely interesting, but I think that there's a tendency to take a particular thesis and believe that explains everything.
(of course, this isn't just in psychology).
I don't believe any one structure explains it all

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You mean like, he's just not that into you?

It would be nice if everything were as neat and tidy as a self help book, but then life wouldn't be that interesting.

faeriefire said:

I hate to cut it up as this is a brilliant post...just thought I'd pull the parts that spoke most to me. Thank you so much for putting this into words.

I thought I'd add a quote I read on forgiveness recently (mini-hijack):

Forgiveness does not entail forgetting or denying your experiences. Forgiveness doesn't mean minimizing or denying the hurt you feel. It means acknowledging the wrongdoing, accepting the associated feelings, and letting go of holding the transgression against the person responsible. It includes giving up the expectations you held the the beliefs that things should have been different. But no, you don't forget when you forgive. You simply reduce the hold the hurt has over you. By forgiving someone you're not sending a message that the person's behavior was acceptable or that you approve of it. For less significant infractions you may be able to excuse or condone some things. Forgiveness is the big gun, called into play when you have been deeply harmed in some way. It's not a substitute for the difficult work of accepting and feeling painful emotions. Instead, think of it as a reward that you're able to bestow on yourself afterward. Forgiveness is something you do for you. No one else ever needs to know. It's a unilateral decision--yours. Forgiveness does not mean being the bigger person, being a martyr, doing the right thing. Again, you forgive for you, not because someone says you should. (end quote)

I think in the matter of returning again and again there is definately a component of forgiveness. But oftentimes I think it's a forgiveness that breeds resentment, a putting aside of ones own feelings, a giving in to what they want and need. Reading the above passage helped me put my own situation into better perspective. If I make the choice to let bygones be bygones...if I choose to put myself within that situation again...if I choose to set aside hurt and pain...then I will accept that change is not going to happen, but I want to be there anyway. I will then accept the subsequent hurts, letting them roll over my shoulder. I can accept the scraps of affection for what they're worth. Because some sort of relationship with her is better than nothing at all. And the forgiveness on my part is directed towards her but even more importantly at myself. It's an acceptance that yes, I am in a bad situation, but I can make the best of it, take what I can, learn and grow. An acknowledgement that I have a choice. There is a realization there that I don't need to beat myself up for choosing one way or another. I can forgive myself for being caught up in this. Just as I could forgive myself for leaving and cutting my family out should the situation escalate to the point it became necessary. I choose to stay. Because family is family and I love them, warts and all

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Excellent and eloquent description. Somewhere along the line I discovered that forgiving others was for my own good. It freed me of an amount of weight I could never resolve and simply couldn't carry.

It made me responsible for my reactions, and let me be the person in charge of how much weight was on my own shoulders. I carry as much as I can to do some emotional aerobics and weight training, and I let the rest go. Over time I get stronger, I can carry more and forgive mindfully and let the weight melt away instead of just dropping it. I do believe that to understand all is to forgive all. Inability to forgive reflects my lack of understanding.

Trust is also another big issue for me. Trust doesn't mean that someone will never hurt me. My choice is to trust myself to heal from harm. Another inverted value system that is counterintuitive and crazy to many. I expect people to hurt me. I give people the opportunity to hurt me to see if they will. Then it's "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me."

I believe I was much more reckless about this in the past than I am now. When I was working out the mechanics I was a bit more dramatic, more doubting. Now I have much more experience with and faith in the process. Like someone with a good immune system, I might not even notice I was maliciously exposed to something painful that might have brought others low or to harm.

Now the smaller insults and slights that might have offended me or made me hold my breath and count to ten, just make me smile. Like children throwing a tantrum. Ineffective and somehow intimately human. Something I recognize.

What I find funny is people who say "Are you going to take that?" "Take what?" "They just insulted you!" "So?"

I'm oblivious to a lot of it. It has to be explained to me, how I should be mad. It's like someone telling me I should have caught a cold. Well, if I didn't catch it, everything's okay, right?

Someone else might think that's not the point. I think it's exactly the point.

When I get exposed to a virulent thought, a destructive pattern, I know how to work through it. The answer's in my own immune system, not in changing someone else's behavior.

The worst I'll do is isolate myself from someone else, and then usually only temporarily, until I get my strength back up. Until I'm strong enough to choose whether or not I should be around this idea or this person, or whether or not I should wash my hands of them and chalk them up as truly destructive. Even then, I usually keep on suiting up and coming back until I figure it out.

I appreciate loyalty to flawed people. We're all flawed. Doing it blindly isn't productive. Doing it mindfully is how strength is gained, an example is set, and change organically implemented.

I didn't start out loving myself, or being loved. I have to say that having children and truly adoring them and wanting the best for them, made me stronger, gave me the perfect example to build upon. Now I expect the same good things for myself as I would for my children. No less for me than I would for them, because now I know why, before I didn't. I couldn't have done it on my own, or only wishing for my own needs. I didn't even know what they were.

A Desert Rose said:

I like this. It's something I encounter in my job all the time. Patients and their families can be very mean, demeaning and demanding of the staff. But it's not about the staff or the care (a lot of the time). Quite often it's about feeling frustrated, helpless and worried and "us just being there."



On another note: Is it the same, to some of you, as objectivication (gah if I misspelled that nevermind) when someone treats you with indifference? Is that the same thing or can it be the same thing?

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I think it can be the same thing at times. However, for me indifference isn't generally the same as objectification.

It's the cruelest thing of all to me. That's my baggage talking there. My ex deliberately shut me out, ignored me and was often indifferent to me.

With someone I care about, I'd rather them hate me than be indifferent.

Of course I've come to realize that there is cruel indifference and then there is simply benign indifference. Those are two very different things.

intothewoods said:

The examples of the pain we take for others is interesting, but how far does it go for you (any of you)? How much will you take? If pain is going to be transformative (which is the word that comes to mind when I read recidiva's post), the relationship between the person taking the pain and the one dishing it out must continue to evolve.

Sort of like the relationship between parent and child. When they are babies, we tend to our children's every need. Cries, messes, diapers, etc. - we take all of that. But if we continue to do that when they're 2, 3, 4? Not such a good result. We want them to start learning to care for themselves a bit, learn a little patience, learn to think about others, etc. So the relationhip evolves.

Does the same hold true for your romantic relationship(s)?

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I think that's my fetish, if we're going to name it. It does have to be transformative. There's always a larger emotional issue to confront. I need to be with someone who is going to learn and progress. Acting out the same thing over and over, and I will grow somewhat despairing in someone's inability to move forward.

(third marriage...)

Recidiva said:

Part of me being a good human being, being a good employee, being a good daughter, being a good wife, being a good mom...has to do with doing incredibly unpleasant things because they need to be done, without a medal, and occasionally getting kicked around for it. "No good deed goes unpunished."

I think if I can remember that I'm doing it because I'm strong, and not because I'm weak, that I'm compensating for someone else's weakness by being polite and doing the hard stuff (like...if an animal makes a mess, a baby messes a diaper - I clean it up - everyone else is busy complaining and gagging) without complaint, I get stronger every day. The world's a better place. I'm doing it for the world, not for the complaining person. I'm doing it, ultimately, for me.

I don't think the person or creature demeaning a valuable act or making the mess is the strong one. The person able to handle the unpleasant task of going about handling the drama of the event is breaking a cycle of judgment and anger and helplessness. If I can take abuse and anger and not throw it back, but deal with it through healing and compassion, I've lived up to who I want to be. To some folks that actually does qualify me as a masochist. To me, that's just who I want to be, who I aspire to be.

It's an inverted value system, but one that I think if everyone behaved the way I did - the world would be a better place. I'm living an example of tolerance and compassion. Forgiveness is a huge part of my practice, and any faith I might represent.

Lots of people would term that conditioning, victim, or weak. That I should stand up more for myself. I should demand more for myself. I should be this or that or the other. I should be more like them, selfish and demanding and myopic.

There are plenty of people standing up for themselves and complaining in the world. I'll stand up when I need to, but most of the time, I'm just going to do what I think is right, what's compassionate, what's understanding, and not fuss about it.

There are messy diapers and messes to clean up, cooking to be done, injuries to be attended, the bodies of the dead to wash. I don't consider it humiliating or demeaning or anything but doing what needs to be done. Only because it needs to be done, therefore that's why I do it. No amount of complaining or feeling superior makes a single dirty diaper go away.

No amount of objectifying, analyzing or treating me according to any other world view, will change that.

Click to expand...

This is just wonderful. I am exactly the same and have warred with myself for years over being selfless and thought gullible or weak as a result. These are the impulses that started me on a career in nursing and they're the same impulses that get me walked over and taken advantage of on a fairly regular basis. The knowledge that someone like Recidiva feels the same as I do and is at peace despite being the person perpetually clearing up other people's messes is a very big thing for me. I simply can't express how grateful I am for this post and it's beautiful philosophy.

Thankyou

faeriefire said:

I hate to cut it up as this is a brilliant post...just thought I'd pull the parts that spoke most to me. Thank you so much for putting this into words.

I thought I'd add a quote I read on forgiveness recently (mini-hijack):

Forgiveness does not entail forgetting or denying your experiences. Forgiveness doesn't mean minimizing or denying the hurt you feel. It means acknowledging the wrongdoing, accepting the associated feelings, and letting go of holding the transgression against the person responsible. It includes giving up the expectations you held the the beliefs that things should have been different. But no, you don't forget when you forgive. You simply reduce the hold the hurt has over you. By forgiving someone you're not sending a message that the person's behavior was acceptable or that you approve of it. For less significant infractions you may be able to excuse or condone some things. Forgiveness is the big gun, called into play when you have been deeply harmed in some way. It's not a substitute for the difficult work of accepting and feeling painful emotions. Instead, think of it as a reward that you're able to bestow on yourself afterward. Forgiveness is something you do for you. No one else ever needs to know. It's a unilateral decision--yours. Forgiveness does not mean being the bigger person, being a martyr, doing the right thing. Again, you forgive for you, not because someone says you should. (end quote)

I think in the matter of returning again and again there is definately a component of forgiveness. But oftentimes I think it's a forgiveness that breeds resentment, a putting aside of ones own feelings, a giving in to what they want and need. Reading the above passage helped me put my own situation into better perspective. If I make the choice to let bygones be bygones...if I choose to put myself within that situation again...if I choose to set aside hurt and pain...then I will accept that change is not going to happen, but I want to be there anyway. I will then accept the subsequent hurts, letting them roll over my shoulder. I can accept the scraps of affection for what they're worth. Because some sort of relationship with her is better than nothing at all. And the forgiveness on my part is directed towards her but even more importantly at myself. It's an acceptance that yes, I am in a bad situation, but I can make the best of it, take what I can, learn and grow. An acknowledgement that I have a choice. There is a realization there that I don't need to beat myself up for choosing one way or another. I can forgive myself for being caught up in this. Just as I could forgive myself for leaving and cutting my family out should the situation escalate to the point it became necessary. I choose to stay. Because family is family and I love them, warts and all

Click to expand...

I'm not big on forgiving but I agree if you are going to do it, do it for yourself.

I can forgive my parents. IMO, they were simply doing thier best with the knowledge and skills they had at the time. I don't hold blame on them for that.

I can't forgive my ex at all. Even though he is dead. I can't forgive what he did to my little girl. I suppose that is hers to forgive or not. Somethings are just unforgivable IMO.

VelvetDarkness said:

This is just wonderful. I am exactly the same and have warred with myself for years over being selfless and thought gullible or weak as a result. These are the impulses that started me on a career in nursing and they're the same impulses that get me walked over and taken advantage of on a fairly regular basis. The knowledge that someone like Recidiva feels the same as I do and is at peace despite being the person perpetually clearing up other people's messes is a very big thing for me. I simply can't express how grateful I am for this post and it's beautiful philosophy.

Thankyou

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Thank you so much for saying something so kind.

It wasn't peaceful getting to where I am now. I bitched and whined and resented my way to relative bliss Getting through the resentment stage was really hard.

My daughter just came home from a trip with her father. She said her family on that side do a ton of complaining and were flat out rude to each other, which made her feel uncomfortable. She was at a buffet restaurant at Epcot. Everyone in line was being rude to the waitstaff. She waited through the line and sat down with her relatives. Then she excused herself, found her way back into the kitchen and said "I just wanted you guys to know I noticed out there that you're working really hard for people who don't appreciate it. Thank you. I appreciate it." She made their day.

It's that sort of pride that keeps me doing what I do. You can't build grace with crappy materials. You gotta pony up for the good stuff.

FurryFury said:

I'm not big on forgiving but I agree if you are going to do it, do it for yourself.

I can forgive my parents. IMO, they were simply doing thier best with the knowledge and skills they had at the time. I don't hold blame on them for that.

I can't forgive my ex at all. Even though he is dead. I can't forgive what he did to my little girl. I suppose that is hers to forgive or not. Somethings are just unforgivable IMO.

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It's almost impossible to forgive someone for harming someone else. That's the trick for me.

I can forgive almost anything done to me. But I'll rip your throat out if you look at my kids funny.

The balance between those two ideals is what makes the whole thing sorta dynamic.

A Desert Rose said:

Assuming that you are a masochist, what kind are you? A physical or emotional one? Or a combination of the two? Why do you think so?

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Hmmm. I guess I would be an emotional masochist as physical pain wouldn't hurt me so much - and without pain I couldn't enjoy it, being a masochist - right?

Recidiva said:

I think that's my fetish, if we're going to name it. It does have to be transformative. There's always a larger emotional issue to confront. I need to be with someone who is going to learn and progress. Acting out the same thing over and over, and I will grow somewhat despairing in someone's inability to move forward.

(third marriage...)

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I can understand that but at the same time if your goal to help others change that's often unrealistic and frustrating.

People do change in some ways. It can't be helped. It's just often not the way we'd like to see happen.

Recidiva said:

Thank you so much for saying something so kind.

It wasn't peaceful getting to where I am now. I bitched and whined and resented my way to relative bliss Getting through the resentment stage was really hard.

My daughter just came home from a trip with her father. She said her family on that side do a ton of complaining and were flat out rude to each other, which made her feel uncomfortable. She was at a buffet restaurant at Epcot. Everyone in line was being rude to the waitstaff. She waited through the line and sat down with her relatives. Then she excused herself, found her way back into the kitchen and said "I just wanted you guys to know I noticed out there that you're working really hard for people who don't appreciate it. Thank you. I appreciate it." She made their day.

It's that sort of pride that keeps me doing what I do. You can't build grace with crappy materials. You gotta pony up for the good stuff.

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I'd be very proud too!

FurryFury said:

I can understand that but at the same time if your goal to help others change that's often unrealistic and frustrating.

People do change in some ways. It can't be helped. It's just often not the way we'd like to see happen.

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I used to be pretty cynical about the concept that people didn't change and people didn't learn.

However, when I started really making an attempt to change, learn and grow myself...

Things changed around me. Whether or not it was my intended change, it'd be "Girl, you ain't much fun since I quit drinkin'" or real, positive transformation. Couldn't predict which one it was gonna be unless I made the change myself.

When I finally gave up on pulling people along with me, but making a personal change, change just happened on its own. I'd see people in entirely different ways. And I know that my family has been inspired by what I've tried to overcome, how far I've traveled. I've inspired them, and in turn they're inspiring me in return. I'm lucky.

Recidiva said:

I used to be pretty cynical about the concept that people didn't change and people didn't learn.

However, when I started really making an attempt to change, learn and grow myself...

Things changed around me. Whether or not it was my intended change, it'd be "Girl, you ain't much fun since I quit drinkin'" or real, positive transformation. Couldn't predict which one it was gonna be unless I made the change myself.

When I finally gave up on pulling people along with me, but making a personal change, change just happened on its own. I'd see people in entirely different ways. And I know that my family has been inspired by what I've tried to overcome, how far I've traveled. I've inspired them, and in turn they're inspiring me in return. I'm lucky.

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I agree with you, when we change it does have an effect on others and we can't predict what it will be.

Good for you!

What a bunch of amazing women! You're all so smart and insightful!

Such a pleasure to read women who are talking TO each other and not picking ON each other.

Thank you for posting here and moving such a great discussion along.

And that was my own hijack. ;-)

Primalex said:

Hmmm. I guess I would be an emotional masochist as physical pain wouldn't hurt me so much - and without pain I couldn't enjoy it, being a masochist - right?

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And not to ignore you. You're a funny guy.

lol

Recidiva said:

I used to be pretty cynical about the concept that people didn't change and people didn't learn.

However, when I started really making an attempt to change, learn and grow myself...

Things changed around me. Whether or not it was my intended change, it'd be "Girl, you ain't much fun since I quit drinkin'" or real, positive transformation. Couldn't predict which one it was gonna be unless I made the change myself.
When I finally gave up on pulling people along with me, but making a personal change, change just happened on its own. I'd see people in entirely different ways. And I know that my family has been inspired by what I've tried to overcome, how far I've traveled. I've inspired them, and in turn they're inspiring me in return. I'm lucky.

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The Secret. Have you read it? A lot of what you're saying reminds me of that book.

A lot of times, I think you bring onto yourself what's in your mind. When you change the patterns in your thinking, the world changes with it.

Who was that Greek philosopher who talked about that? Plato?

God I've been out of college too many years now....