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Old 02-22-2018, 09:35 PM   #26
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Hence England's dilemma. They banned guns and murder rates stayed the same but murder by stabbing/slashing went up So they banned most knives one would carry and murders stayed the same, stabbing/slashing stayed the same but kitchen knives were used for nearly all of them. So they banned the sale of kitchen knives with sharp points. Haven't heard the results on that one yet but I'm betting anything sharper than a plastic butterknife will be banned soon.
The US and the UK (handily co-located on this table) have homicide rates of 4.88 and and 0.92 per 100,000 respectively. I'm not stupid enough to suggest guns are the only reason for one figure being five times the other figure, but it seems unlikely that they don't contribute to that fairly significant difference.
I'd be interested to see your evidence for homicide rates staying the same in the UK after guns were 'banned'. (I'm also a bit puzzled, as I thought widespread gun ownership hasn't been legal in the UK in modern times at all - so when exactly did this 'ban' happen?)
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Old 02-22-2018, 09:35 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Carnal_Flower View Post
RIght wing nuts don't care about kids getting their brains blown out in classrooms, that's been well established since Sandy Hook.
So why is it that the "right" wants to put armed security in our schools and the "left" just continues the "Gun Free Zone" because it's working SOOOO fucking great?
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Old 02-22-2018, 09:37 PM   #28
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A better argument to the car straw man is to point out that automobiles are actually tremendously useful tools in our society, to the point that we're willing to put up with the accidents and deaths and injuries because the benefits far outweigh those costs.

There really is no benefit to society in owning a firearm of any kind, much less an assault weapon.
To be honest i vehemently disagree with the arguement that there is no benefit to society in owning a firearm of any kind. I say that because if the sane responsible people had guns and were allowed to carry them there would be signficantly less casualities during school attacks and during short range lone wolf style attacks. Second the proverbial genie is out of the bottle, most of the gun laws i've read usually only hurt the honest gun owners. Not to mention de-militarizing machine guns and heavy weapons is kinda pointless unless the president wants to ban all welding technology.

THat being said, i'm not opposed to things like background checks and mental exams before being issued a gun liscense. Just so the guns can get into the hands of responsible and sane people. Though i also admit i am on the fence when it comes to gun registration, because while i don't oppose the idea of being to track down the history of ownership of a firearm when it comes to criminal matters i also think keeping an exact record of who owns what gun is the start of a slippery slope. Take the 1980's version of "red dawn" among the first things the commander of the invading force ordered a subordinate to get the gun registrations and hunting liscenses and collect the guns the people in town had.
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Old 02-22-2018, 09:46 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by KimGordon67 View Post
The US and the UK (handily co-located on this table) have homicide rates of 4.88 and and 0.92 per 100,000 respectively. I'm not stupid enough to suggest guns are the only reason for one figure being five times the other figure, but it seems unlikely that they don't contribute to that fairly significant difference.
I'd be interested to see your evidence for homicide rates staying the same in the UK after guns were 'banned'. (I'm also a bit puzzled, as I thought widespread gun ownership hasn't been legal in the UK in modern times at all - so when exactly did this 'ban' happen?)
Ummmm.... 1997. In the 1997 Firearms Act. You might want to look it up. After the Dunblane shooting. You might want to look that up too. Banned everything but single shot firearms. BTW: you have to obtain a licence to own those and applying for one is going mean the police are going to be asking your doctor if you are being treated for any mental illness.
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Old 02-22-2018, 09:49 PM   #30
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Ummmm.... 1997. In the 1997 Firearms Act. You might want to look it up. After the Dunblane shooting. You might want to look that up too. Banned everything but single shot firearms. BTW: you have to obtain a licence to own those and applying for one is going mean the police are going to be asking your doctor if you are being treated for any mental illness.
OK - it's not a piece of legislation that I'm familiar with. Were gun as accessible as they are in the US prior to 1997?
Still awaiting the evidence that homicide rates stayed the same.
And a response to the noted different in homicide rates between the UK and the US.
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Old 02-22-2018, 09:49 PM   #31
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BTW:

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Old 02-22-2018, 09:51 PM   #32
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To be honest i vehemently disagree with the arguement that there is no benefit to society in owning a firearm of any kind. I say that because if the sane responsible people had guns and were allowed to carry them there would be signficantly less casualities during school attacks and during short range lone wolf style attacks. Second the proverbial genie is out of the bottle, most of the gun laws i've read usually only hurt the honest gun owners. Not to mention de-militarizing machine guns and heavy weapons is kinda pointless unless the president wants to ban all welding technology.

THat being said, i'm not opposed to things like background checks and mental exams before being issued a gun liscense. Just so the guns can get into the hands of responsible and sane people. Though i also admit i am on the fence when it comes to gun registration, because while i don't oppose the idea of being to track down the history of ownership of a firearm when it comes to criminal matters i also think keeping an exact record of who owns what gun is the start of a slippery slope. Take the 1980's version of "red dawn" among the first things the commander of the invading force ordered a subordinate to get the gun registrations and hunting liscenses and collect the guns the people in town had.
So the benefit of owning a gun is entirely contingent on other people owning guns. I think that's sort of an expansion of the point that was originally being made.
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Old 02-22-2018, 09:53 PM   #33
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OK - it's not a piece of legislation that I'm familiar with. Were gun as accessible as they are in the US prior to 1997?
Still awaiting the evidence that homicide rates stayed the same.
And a response to the noted different in homicide rates between the UK and the US.
Try here for starters:

https://crimeresearch.org/2013/12/mu...fter-gun-bans/

Homicide rates actually went UP after the ban.
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Old 02-22-2018, 09:53 PM   #34
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BTW:

The US seems remarkably absent from that table. You're also conflating 'violent crime' (which is a relatively subjective concept and is probably measured quite different in different places) and 'homicide' (which has a roughly similar definition everywhere). The UK's violent crime figures could easily be conflated by drunk Glaswegians.
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Old 02-22-2018, 10:05 PM   #35
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The US seems remarkably absent from that table. You're also conflating 'violent crime' (which is a relatively subjective concept and is probably measured quite different in different places) and 'homicide' (which has a roughly similar definition everywhere). The UK's violent crime figures could easily be conflated by drunk Glaswegians.
You might keep in mind that the US has has a 'slightly' larger population the the UK and those numbers are per 100,000
. There may be more total crime in the US than the UK, and that's what most liberal media outlets point to, but when compared on even terms... Well, go research it yourself so you actually KNOW.
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Old 02-22-2018, 10:12 PM   #36
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You might keep in mind that the US has has a 'slightly' larger population the the UK and those numbers are per 100,000
. There may be more total crime in the US than the UK, and that's what most liberal media outlets point to, but when compared on even terms... Well, go research it yourself so you actually KNOW.
I think you'll find that rates per 100,000 indicate a proportion, not a total. So basically they're saying for each 100,000 people in the population, there are X number of homicides. It's a %. Basically, they're saying that 0.00488% of American people die from homicide, vs 0.00092% of people in the UK.
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Old 02-22-2018, 10:26 PM   #37
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I think you'll find that rates per 100,000 indicate a proportion, not a total. So basically they're saying for each 100,000 people in the population, there are X number of homicides. It's a %. Basically, they're saying that 0.00488% of American people die from homicide, vs 0.00092% of people in the UK.
Look, I'm done being your research assistant for the night. Why don't you come up with some valid, verifiable facts of your own to prove me wrong. SHOW me that the gun ban has prevented crime in the UK. LOOK IT UP! Then link it here and show me what you learned. Or you can sit there and question everything everyone says that you disagree with while not presenting any evidence of your own and look like a TOTAL FUCKING IDIOT.
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Old 02-22-2018, 10:51 PM   #38
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Explain how this is going to work, please.

I should look up the stats, but I think Columbine and Parkland both had "armed security" and look how that turned out. I would guess a lot of the other schools did, too.

Do you want teachers to be armed? How's that going to work? No? More security guards? How many per school, and what--should they have semi-automatics or what?

I'd like to have a serious analysis--like, considering ALL the schools in the U.S., how many guards per kid, and what kind of guns.

And what kind of people are you going to hire? I presume you would want "trained" marksmen, correct? I mean, you don't want the minimum wage "security" forces from CVS would you? You'd want serious guys. Depending on the size of the school, you'd want a lot to make any difference--5, 10, 20--in EVERY school in America. You can't pick and choose, you have to protect everyone.

And these guys are going to get paid how much to do nothing but stand in an empty hallway from 9 to 5 everyday? I assure you trained marksmen aren't going to settle for minimum wage, and anyone who has to stand in a hallway from 9-5 is probably going to go batshit crazy, but hey

What about insurance? You better add that on, too, otherwise the School Board is going to be paying out hundreds of millions every year for all the accidental deaths.

Where's the legislation? Where's any legislation? If the wing nuts cared about kids they'd introduce a plan and legislation.

Yes, the "left" wants schools to be gun free zones, that's why they want a ban on all automatic weapons.

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So why is it that the "right" wants to put armed security in our schools and the "left" just continues the "Gun Free Zone" because it's working SOOOO fucking great?
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Old 02-22-2018, 10:56 PM   #39
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You might keep in mind that the US has has a 'slightly' larger population the the UK and those numbers are per 100,000
. There may be more total crime in the US than the UK...
USA isn't on that list so comparing to UK or anywhere doesn't work. And as mentioned, "violent crime" is an ambiguous term. Who wants to gargle "international crime rates per capita" ??
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Old 02-22-2018, 10:57 PM   #40
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Look, I'm done being your research assistant for the night. Why don't you come up with some valid, verifiable facts of your own to prove me wrong. SHOW me that the gun ban has prevented crime in the UK. LOOK IT UP! Then link it here and show me what you learned. Or you can sit there and question everything everyone says that you disagree with while not presenting any evidence of your own and look like a TOTAL FUCKING IDIOT.
I never asked for a research assistant - I just asked for evidence to back up your statements. Given that you clearly don't understand how statistics work, it's unsurprising that you couldn't really find any.
I've presented clear states that show a marked difference in homicides rates between the UK and the US, in response to your suggestion that guns have no effect on homicide rates.
The graph you presented showing that homicide rates 'increased' in the UK after 1997 actually shows a spike, and since then a steady decline (which isn't quite the same as saying an 'increase' in statistical terms), to rates that are now lower than they were, on average, prior to 1997. I suggest the spike is due, at least in part, to the fact that you remove the legal guns fairly immediately, but it takes longer to remove the illegal guns. However, there could be other variables at play that neither you nor I are aware of. You really need a longer time period to really identify a consistent pattern though, but the graph you've shown me supports my contention just as much as it supports yours.

I've pulled stats in these arguments before that clearly show that in states within the US that have higher rates of gun ownership, rates of homicide are higher, and the difference almost exactly mirrors the increase in gun ownership rates. Researchers with more statistical nous than me (and definitely more than you) say that the different in rates are almost solely explained by the rates of gun ownership. In terms of violent crime more generally, if you compare the ten states with the highest rates of violent crime, theres almost no pattern in relationship to gun ownership - the correlations don't support the theory that more guns cause more violent crime OR that more guns cause less violent crime.
Unfortunately the thread that had all that stuff in it got pulled for some reason ... I have no idea why ... and I can't be bothered replicating the research because ultimately barely anyone in here ever really reads evidence - they just ignore it and move onto the next ramble. I was spending hours putting together stats to create a more rounded picture, and only really proving something to myself. (It was interesting, when I was a bit bored, but I quite literally have better things to be doing now that chasing up research that isn't directly related to my actual work.)
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Old 02-22-2018, 10:59 PM   #41
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Explain how this is going to work, please.

I should look up the stats, but I think Columbine and Parkland both had "armed security" and look how that turned out. I would guess a lot of the other schools did, too.

Do you want teachers to be armed? How's that going to work? No? More security guards? How many per school, and what--should they have semi-automatics or what?

I'd like to have a serious analysis--like, considering ALL the schools in the U.S., how many guards per kid, and what kind of guns.

And what kind of people are you going to hire? I presume you would want "trained" marksmen, correct? I mean, you don't want the minimum wage "security" forces from CVS would you? You'd want serious guys. Depending on the size of the school, you'd want a lot to make any difference--5, 10, 20--in EVERY school in America. You can't pick and choose, you have to protect everyone.

And these guys are going to get paid how much to do nothing but stand in an empty hallway from 9 to 5 everyday? I assure you trained marksmen aren't going to settle for minimum wage, and anyone who has to stand in a hallway from 9-5 is probably going to go batshit crazy, but hey

What about insurance? You better add that on, too, otherwise the School Board is going to be paying out hundreds of millions every year for all the accidental deaths.

Where's the legislation? Where's any legislation? If the wing nuts cared about kids they'd introduce a plan and legislation.

Yes, the "left" wants schools to be gun free zones, that's why they want a ban on all automatic weapons.
[Irony font]Arm the kids! It's the only sensible solution![Irony font]
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Old 02-23-2018, 12:47 AM   #42
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I don't care how we kill each other

I want to know why.
No other mammal kills for no reason
We are the worst example of earthly life
Violence,guns,knives who cares how.
Lets,find a solution to human depravity
It will never happen
Mans dual nature ,good and evil will prevail, because of free will and the absence of spiritual providence
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Old 02-23-2018, 12:49 AM   #43
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I'm dying to hear the Republican Plan for School Security.

They've only had five years to introduce it, since Sandy Hook, during which they voted down and then refused to vote on ANY OTHER GUN CONTROL LEGISLATION and have taken NO ACTION on school safety AT ALL.

I call that not giving a shit about dead kids. Not one bit. It's just the price of freedom, everybody.

But I can't wait for the arm everyone up the wazoo plan, especially since the Trump Budget SLASHES FUNDING for school security.

Meanwhile:

Northeast Governors Form Coalition To Combat Gun Violence


DEMOCRATIC governors from NY, NJ, CT and RI are doing something.
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Old 02-23-2018, 04:20 AM   #44
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Nearby, I suggested a vivid demonstration. At a school where some of the student body gather to protest guns, the NRA can arm counter-protesters to shoot the anti-gun mob, showing that they've have survived if they'd only been armed. That's the logic, right?
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Old 02-23-2018, 05:11 AM   #45
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I call that not giving a shit about dead kids. Not one bit. It's just the price of freedom, everybody.
If itís really dead kids youíre worried about, we really need to relitigate Roe v Wade, cause that has prevented millions from even being born to go need protected in public schools.
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Old 02-23-2018, 08:36 AM   #46
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OK - it's not a piece of legislation that I'm familiar with. Were gun as accessible as they are in the US prior to 1997?
Still awaiting the evidence that homicide rates stayed the same.
And a response to the noted different in homicide rates between the UK and the US.
No, they were never as lax as they are in the US. Prior to 1987 (The Hungerford Massacre), semi-automatic rifles were allowed. You had to obtain a licence from the police. To get that you needed to have no criminal record, no history of mental illness, a lockable steel cabinet in which the weapons would be stored and belong to a registered gun club.

After 1987 semi-automatic weapons were banned. We work on the basis that a good hunter only needs one shot.

The Dunblane school shooting was carried out using a handgun. Following that, handguns were banned completely. since then there have been no mass shootings.

Following each of these incidents, the murder rate rose at the same rate that it had been rising before indicating the bans had no overall effect on the murder rate. This is hardly surprising since the restriction on the ownership of firearms prior to that meant that the gun was rarely the weapon of choice for murder.
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Old 02-23-2018, 09:02 AM   #47
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Hence England's dilemma. They banned guns and murder rates stayed the same but murder by stabbing/slashing went up So they banned most knives one would carry and murders stayed the same, stabbing/slashing stayed the same but kitchen knives were used for nearly all of them. So they banned the sale of kitchen knives with sharp points. Haven't heard the results on that one yet but I'm betting anything sharper than a plastic butterknife will be banned soon.
Wher do you get this rubbish? From a bloke down the pub?
For the record, in the UK, kitchen knives are available in any supermarket or hardware store. Folding knives and hunting knives are still available in shops for hunters and fishermen. The only restriction is that they are not to be sold to minors.

The UK has had strict restrictions on the ownership of firearms since 1946. The return of men from the war, complete with their guns resulted in a huge spike in the murder rate. Despite the increasing population, the 1946 figure was not exceeded until 1974. Since 1946 all guns had to be licensed. The granting of a licence was the job of the police and largely at their discretion.
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Old 02-23-2018, 09:19 AM   #48
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I want to know why.
No other mammal kills for no reason
We are the worst example of earthly life
Violence,guns,knives who cares how.
Lets,find a solution to human depravity
It will never happen
Mans dual nature ,good and evil will prevail, because of free will and the absence of spiritual providence
Does man kill for no reason? I don't believe he does though sometimes the reasons are hard to understand. Many animals will fight to the death over things like territory, food and access to the females.

Man has two close relatives with which we share equal amounts of DNA. One that we all know is the chimpanzee. They rule their community through violence and aggression. The other is the Bobono they rule their communities in a more peaceful way. with them, sex is the motivation for everything. Looks like it comes down to whether you are more Bobono or Chimpanzee.
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Old 02-23-2018, 10:19 AM   #49
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So the benefit of owning a gun is entirely contingent on other people owning guns. I think that's sort of an expansion of the point that was originally being made.
Keeping up with the Smiths and the Wessons?
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Old 02-23-2018, 11:23 AM   #50
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to mandate the purchase and conceal carry of a firearm by all citizens
How many dead kids will it take for you to realize guns are bad?

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Originally Posted by My I View Post
So do you have a licence and insurance to operate you cell phone?????
Yes, I do because cell phones are EXACTLY equivalent to guns and cars. Fucking moron, came on here and got yourself destroyed in one post.
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