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what makes a poem good?

Tsotha said:
I might try submitting something, soon... Indeed, there are people commenting over there that don't come here, so it might be interesting, to see how different people react.
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heads me up.
Did you suggest, or was it someone else, GM do a thread on his edits? Excellent idea. In PF&D, not in the dugout.
 
twelveoone said:
heads me up.
Did you suggest, or was it someone else, GM do a thread on his edits? Excellent idea. In PF&D, not in the dugout.
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Yea, that was me. It would be interesting to see what the experienced poets here alter over time.

...and it seems Matryoshka didn't see my message. *sigh* And I put such effort into it. :cool:
 
Tsotha said:
Yea, that was me. It would be interesting to see what the experienced poets here alter over time.

...and it seems Matryoshka didn't see my message. *sigh* And I put such effort into it. :cool:
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Somewhere in the dawn of history, when Platoes roamed the earth, I did a series that tried to get them to do so. Interact. circa 2004 Most can't or won't talk, but #3 and #4, jd4george and patcarrington did, I forget what else was there. jd4george was one of lit's nicest people, innovative, wide range, tragic loss. Pat escaped, think he has three books out and is one the front end of not for the thinned skin thread. Notice the two that set on his ass. One of them seems to be missing, a shame.
Now, I'm fucking depressed. Good going Tso. Memory lane is full of ghosts. All with fingers, mostly middle (yah fuck you too). I don't know if you know that sign.
 
twelveoone said:
Somewhere in the dawn of history, when Platoes roamed the earth, I did a series that tried to get them to do so. Interact. circa 2004 Most can't or won't talk, but #3 and #4, jd4george and patcarrington did, I forget what else was there. jd4george was one of lit's nicest people, innovative, wide range, tragic loss. Pat escaped, think he has three books out and is one the front end of not for the thinned skin thread. Notice the two that set on his ass. One of them seems to be missing, a shame.
Now, I'm fucking depressed. Good going Tso. Memory lane is full of ghosts. All with fingers, mostly middle (yah fuck you too). I don't know if you know that sign.
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Oh, you mean the middle finger, which we use here to say "hello" to others? :D I jest. That has the same meaning everywhere, I think.
 
Tsotha said:
Oh, you mean the middle finger, which we use here to say "hello" to others? :D I jest. That has the same meaning everywhere, I think.
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yeh the you're number 1 on some momentary list of gets
I'm probably #1 on sj's, maybe, I got competition, #1 on Em's, was #1 on erectus's lists, got two poems out of it. I'm just the all around #1 guy around here, you have quite a way to go. The anon's darling. Hell, I made it to my own list at times.
 
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twelveoone said:
yeh the you're number 1 on some momentary list of gets
I'm probably #1 on sj's, maybe, I got competition, #1 on Em's, was #1 on erectus's lists, got two poems out of it. I'm just the all around #1 guy around here, you have quite a way to go. The anon's darling. Hell, I made it to my own list at times.
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Me? Number 1? But I'm such a nice person. :cattail:
 
butters said:
tell me.

for you, as an individual, how do you KNOW if a poem is good or not? :cool:
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I don't know whether a poem is good or not in the abstract.

I do know whether I, and only I, think it is good.

What makes it good for me is vision. Does the poem make me look at a thing, an emotion, a thought in detail, showing me something I didn't see before the poem?

If it does, it is good - for me.

If it makes me think "I know that", or "Other people have expressed that better", or "That is obvious" - then that poem hasn't worked for me.

The mechanics, structure, form, metre and other aspects of a poem are unimportant. It could be stylised, formal or completely free of any constraints. If the vision is there I don't care whether it has rhyme or not, if it is a sonnet, or apparently formless.

The complexity of the poem and its references are irrelevant. But if the references are too obscure, or too linked to the writer's culture that I don't share, then I don't think the poem is good.

If it can make me look at a tiny oil slick on a puddle and see the rainbow - it's good.
 
oggbashan said:
I don't know whether a poem is good or not in the abstract.

I do know whether I, and only I, think it is good.

What makes it good for me is vision. Does the poem make me look at a thing, an emotion, a thought in detail, showing me something I didn't see before the poem?

If it does, it is good - for me.

If it makes me think "I know that", or "Other people have expressed that better", or "That is obvious" - then that poem hasn't worked for me.

The mechanics, structure, form, metre and other aspects of a poem are unimportant. It could be stylised, formal or completely free of any constraints. If the vision is there I don't care whether it has rhyme or not, if it is a sonnet, or apparently formless.

The complexity of the poem and its references are irrelevant. But if the references are too obscure, or too linked to the writer's culture that I don't share, then I don't think the poem is good.

If it can make me look at a tiny oil slick on a puddle and see the rainbow - it's good.
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nice one, mr ogg :)

this illustrates how the decision is such an individual thing - you 'know' it because of how you interact with it. this kind of knowing asks no permission from others for it to be - it simply is.
 
Throughout the course of today I've read this entire thread (ok, I skimmed over some of the back and forth with the dude) and I still have an itch to contribute my own thoughts, so being the chatty thing that I am here goes.

There are as many things that make a good poem as there are types of poems. The main things for me are...
Feeling: did it make me feel SOMETHING, fear, loathing, (Las Vegas :D), lust, love, sadness, just something.
Language: did it either flow so smoothly I didn't notice the language or assault me with words
movement: I'm unschooled in the terminology but here I mean did it actually make me move, like music does. Did it make me shake my head, sway, rock, flinch
voice: can I hear a voice other than my own the second time I read it

For me it doesn't have to be the entire poem, it could be just a single stanza or even a really good line that makes it a keeper. For instance, from Maya Angelou's On Diverse Deviations it's one line that does it for me "And life a weary whore." The rest of the poem makes my eyes cross, but that line makes them bug out and I nod my head and think YES!

For me a great poem has at least 4 of the above elements and one more, it makes me wish that I'd thought it first. :D
 
Trixareforkids said:
Throughout the course of today I've read this entire thread (ok, I skimmed over some of the back and forth with the dude) and I still have an itch to contribute my own thoughts, so being the chatty thing that I am here goes.

There are as many things that make a good poem as there are types of poems. The main things for me are...
Feeling: did it make me feel SOMETHING, fear, loathing, (Las Vegas :D), lust, love, sadness, just something.
Language: did it either flow so smoothly I didn't notice the language or assault me with words
movement: I'm unschooled in the terminology but here I mean did it actually make me move, like music does. Did it make me shake my head, sway, rock, flinch
voice: can I hear a voice other than my own the second time I read it

For me it doesn't have to be the entire poem, it could be just a single stanza or even a really good line that makes it a keeper. For instance, from Maya Angelou's On Diverse Deviations it's one line that does it for me "And life a weary whore." The rest of the poem makes my eyes cross, but that line makes them bug out and I nod my head and think YES!

For me a great poem has at least 4 of the above elements and one more, it makes me wish that I'd thought it first. :D
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i really like your answers; it's all about personal impact - that's the decider in almost every case despite all the elements that go into a work's creation. ultimately, it's our own judgement that counts for us despite what critters might say on the topic.

your last point - yes! i am left wishing i'd have written that line/phrase, the one/s that linger beyond the page with a life all their own.

recently, harry and i visited the national gallery in london - i mean, chock full of rembrandts and reubens and (insert lots of uber famous artists' names here).... some of them amazed me, in how they could make things look: water that you could feel yourself slipping your hand down into, or polished metal whose warmth you could feel as the sun sparked off it, or the fur on a dog, the expression on a face... but, as pictures i'd want to look at again and again? most left me unmoved. and then we walked into room 16 - and harry and i both were arrested but by two very different paintings. for harry, it was Rembrandt's Ecce Homo - for me, it was A Man seated at a table reading in a lofty room. i could barely tear my eyes from it, a smallish picture, and it haunts me still. oil on oak and there's such a watery sheen to the light - i could revisit that piece and sit for hours, waiting for the shadows to move it is that captivating to me. and it's by an unnamed early ''follower'' of rembrandt. if i was ever tempted to steal a work of art, all the others could stay put despite their value. i would take that one.

i guess my point is that, in a gallery full of works declared the very best, most had little impact on me personally. the one that did just blew me away, and it's how i ''knew'' that for me it was good (great!) art. and it applies just the same when it comes to poetry, at least for me.
 
I know if it has been cooked to golden perfection. Add a little butter, a little salt, and LOTS and LOTS of ketchup!
:D
 
butters said:
oh, sorry about that. i wasn't disparaging yer man parts :D

new yorkers can kick ass. got poetry here?
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Yeah, be careful there, man parts don't like to go unnoticed. :(
XD


I guess you have signatures turned off too. I have links to all my latest stuffs there. To answer you; yes, but only one. A bit of fluff, an homage of sorts that I penned many years ago.
 
I guess the first thing is defining what makes a poem (here I'd argue the use of poetic devices to communicate). I consider a poem successful if it elicits a response from the reader. What makes a poem good for me is visceral or philosophical resonance that makes me go "ah."
 
Tristesse2 said:
Sorry to be negative but why encourage this? You're on the GB enough that you must be familiar with his MO. :confused:
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because no matter what my personal opinion of his persona, he said something i thought rather sad: that poetry was his first love and it hadn't fared too well, or words to that effect. got me wondering if he'd actively repressed his creativity, and what would that do to any of us who love to write?

now, i don't hold much hope that this might work out, but since jbj's announcing he's talented (and he might be) and is already telling us our poems suck when writing poetry is easy, i thought i'd bump this for him to elaborate on his opinions. they can't hurt us, and might even be interesting. i give everyone a chance - crikey, i put up with senna for wayyyy too long.
 
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