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#metoo

Nezhul said:
It is a factual thing that does cause behavioral changes, you know?
It is FACT that all teenagers, both men AND women are more unhinged during puberty, and make a lot of dumb things.

No, this is not an excuse. But it's a valid part of cause. And the point was never about hormones or age. Let's replace the teenager with a 30-year-old idiot who thinks he can grab things he should not. The point stands - you CAN NOT lump him in with rapists, or the act with experiencing actual rape for a woman. While this is extremely unpleasant, this is still FAR from being as traumatizing as rape.

Also, while there is no completely symmetrical problem for men, there are other types of abuse that men suffer from women that would be equally unpleasant and traumatizing as molesting. The difference is - we aren't supposed to talk about it. And we normally don't - I only do this in scope of this discussion to bring perspective that your side lacks. I'm not here to complain to you how hard the man's life is made by women. I keep quiet about it exactly because I know that women in general don't have it any better than me.
But because most men are never complaining, you get the impression that only one gender suffers from another, and not vice versa.
Then you come here with claims how tough woman's toll is, and how men can't understand anything. While completely, completely failing to see that intergender abuse is far from one-sided.

Again, due to the difference in gender psychology the problems are not symmetrical. Women suffer more physical abuse, while men much more often fail victim to psychological or cultural. But you are being hypocritical if you say that no bruises means no foul play.

You aren't even thinking about things. You are concentrated on the problems that are close you you, and you turn a complete blind eye on the others. To be clear, I'm not saying that you shouldn't complain or try to change things - but you shouldn't present it by only victimizing one gender while shaming the other.

Your entire line in this argument boils down to women suffering greatly from abuse from men, while men are clearly much better off and have no right to over-dramatize their problems. Let alone compare our made-up issues to woman's.

I do not try and make woman's problems smaller than they are.
What I ask in return is merely the same courtesy from you, women. Instead you have completely derailed this thread and made it about YOU, while mocking and shaming that the OP had an audacity to be concerned about male side in an inter-gender problem.
You don't even want to accept that men have issues and women have faults, because YOU are the only heavily abused gender.

You are completely one-dimensional, Kim.
Click to expand...

You this ALL the time - you're constantly telling women there isn't that much of a problem with street harassment or sexual assault or whatever.

When, ever, have I suggested that men don't have issues, or that women are faultless? Really - find ONE post in among the thousands I have here where I've said anything like that. I actually think, for example, that the risk taking behaviour exhibited by young is totally a problem that needs to be addressed ... but that's not what this thread is about. If you want to start a thread about men's issues, go hard. But the increasing requirement that they (a) actually get consent for sex and (b) man up a bit and stop harassing women, especially young women, isn't an 'issue'.

In the last few days, a woman in posted on our local community FB page about how she can't run through our neighbourhood - in broad daylight - without getting harassed by men, and that in some instances the behaviour has been pretty threatening. And underneath that are numerous other women saying the same thing. And before you say anything, no, this isn't peculiar to where we lived. You constantly tell people they live in bad places, or in bubbles of negativity - have you ever considered that maybe you're the one in the bubble, and that when women say that yes, they are regularly harassed on the street, and that it's unpleasant, they're telling the truth?

(Also 'thinking about things' is, quite literally, my job description. So yeah, I do think about things.)
 
Bramblethorn said:
Another way for guys to think about this...

2.7 million American soldiers served in Vietnam. Of those: about 60,000 were killed, and another 150,000 were injured badly enough to require hospitalisation.

So do we tell Vietnam vets "that wasn't so bad, more than 90% of you came home unharmed"?

Of course we fucking don't. Because we understand that even for the "lucky" 90%, it's seriously damaging to see friends killed or injured, trying to maintain constant alertness for months and years in case this is the day that your lucky streak ends. The National Vietnam Veterans Readjustment Study estimated that about one million soldiers experienced PTSD at some point in their life as a result of the war.

So maybe apply that kind of thinking to sexual assault?

Not every woman has been or will be sexually assaulted. Probably less than half. But it's a significant threat in EVERY woman's life, and even the women who never get assaulted still pay a price for it.
Click to expand...

This. Exactly. Because we have the 'risk' drilled into us from the moment we can comprehend such a thing - even earlier, really. You don't need to actually be assaulted - you just need to live with the constant risk that it might happen, and the constant message that if you have temerity to walk on a street after dark ... well, what do you expect really.

Sorry all you straight cis guys, but unless you've been in some very specific set of circumstances, you literally have no idea what it's like to live like that.
 
What #MeToo is about is reporting sexual abuse. Period, not women making false accusations, or men making accusations of false accusations, but finally getting over this sytematic denial, about sex in general, that abusive people (Men, and women, even some children) take advantage of.

The opposition tries to make it about Feminism. It's isn't, it's about reporting sexual abuse. If you're a man, and you're sexually abused, stand up, and say #MeToo. You feel harassed? #MeToo. Pressured, stereotyped because of sexist standards?

It's not for women to abuse men. It's not. It's not for making false allegations, it's so we can finally talk about this, and stop trusting people because he played a family man in the 90s. We need to stop this anti-feminist narrative though. We need to stop making this about evil feminists trying to get back at men, because it's a distraction.

Consciously, or subconsciously, you're aiding, and abetting the sexist stereotype that men abuse women, by attacking feminism whenever a woman reports being abused. You can see that, right? That attacking feminism doesn't help your point that #NotAllMen abuse women? We don't have to point that out any more?
 
KimGordon67 said:
This. Exactly. Because we have the 'risk' drilled into us from the moment we can comprehend such a thing - even earlier, really. You don't need to actually be assaulted - you just need to live with the constant risk that it might happen, and the constant message that if you have temerity to walk on a street after dark ... well, what do you expect really.

Sorry all you straight cis guys, but unless you've been in some very specific set of circumstances, you literally have no idea what it's like to live like that.
Click to expand...

Your last paragraph.
It’s part of our lives. We face it every day.
Don’t tell us we don’t. Then you become part of it.
 
I'm getting really sick of the false accusations of false allegations every time someone comes forward. She must be lying, because he's a pillar of the community, and we all know that a pillar of the community has never abused his position, while women just naturally get something out of subjecting themselves to ridicule for attention.

No, it doesn't work like that. Sexual harassment happens. Sexual abuse happens, and the default assumption of guilt on the victim's part is what we need #MeToo for. There is no other crime where the victims have to prove our innocence. None, if I break into your car, and steal the change out of your dashboard, the cops don't ask you if you left it there to entice thieves. They don't interrogate you about all the strangers you gave money out to in alleys, and if you left your windows rolled down, they don't drop the case, because you should have locked your doors. You shouldn't have parked it there.

This is how they treat women's bodies, in a court of law, and the court of public opinion. Victims are interrogated, and investigated like criminals, while abusers are presumed innocent until proven guilty. That guy, who broke your window, and stole your stereo? We don't have to consider his future. Of course, he probably wasn't "A pillar of the community," because guys like that don't break into cars for fun.

They hit on interns, because they can, and they know they can get away with it.
 
psiberzerker said:
I'm getting really sick of the false accusations of false allegations every time someone comes forward. She must be lying, because he's a pillar of the community, and we all know that a pillar of the community has never abused his position, while women just naturally get something out of subjecting themselves to ridicule for attention.

No, it doesn't work like that. Sexual harassment happens. Sexual abuse happens, and the default assumption of guilt on the victim's part is what we need #MeToo for. There is no other crime where the victims have to prove our innocence. None, if I break into your car, and steal the change out of your dashboard, the cops don't ask you if you left it there to entice thieves. They don't interrogate you about all the strangers you gave money out to in alleys, and if you left your windows rolled down, they don't drop the case, because you should have locked your doors. You shouldn't have parked it there.

This is how they treat women's bodies, in a court of law, and the court of public opinion. Victims are interrogated, and investigated like criminals, while abusers are presumed innocent until proven guilty. That guy, who broke your window, and stole your stereo? We don't have to consider his future. Of course, he probably wasn't "A pillar of the community," because guys like that don't break into cars for fun.

They hit on interns, because they can, and they know they can get away with it.
Click to expand...

Well said. Thanks. Like I said before, having to explain this to “no time al men” again and again I say really tiresome.
 
KimGordon67 said:
Thanks for this ... I couldn't even be bothered addressing the Islamaphobia in Blue's comment, but I'm glad someone else did.

I sure some dude'll be along momentarily to explain to you why you're wrong though.
Click to expand...
Right, because I'm a 19th-century misogynist who thinks women have nothing intelligent to say.
Good luck being considered a credible source on any issue when you brush off even mild disagreement as sexist, you've lost my interest for sure.
 
Last edited:
Angedesoleil said:
Without calling anyone out... Would those who feel it appropriate to make vast sweeping comments about religious motivations they clearly know *nothing* about please knock it off?
Hijab means modesty. It has not hide nor hair to do with what it *causes* men to do. That ain't it kid, that ain't it. If you'd like to discuss the fiq ( reason/ wisdom) behind hijab I welcome you to my inbox. In any which case, hijab as a statement of faith is very different from that which is culturally expected. I'm not defending culture, I WILL argue religion with you. I'll tell you this: I'm a hijabi Muslim woman. I am not opressed in the middle east, I'm respected. I'm not harassed, I'm protected. I'm not shamed or hidden, ridiculed, cat called or judged. I've never felt afraid for my safety.
[..]
Back to the point: the reason for the belief in hijab has nothing to do with ? Preventing men from not bring able to help themselves?? If you misunderstand the phrase " guard the gaze" I'll gladly explain it and provide references as well.

Peace.

Because the song says it way better than I can
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xg_8-LPq5qY
Click to expand...
I'd totally like to discuss it but I'd prefer to do it outside of an inbox since that hides what I believe from other people. I'm thinking of Kim in particular since now she seemingly thinks I'm a raging islamophobe or something.
If you're against having it here, elsewhere is cool with me.
 
Blue said:
I'd totally like to discuss it but I'd prefer to do it outside of an inbox since that hides what I believe from other people. I'm thinking of Kim in particular since now she seemingly thinks I'm a raging islamophobe or something.
If you're against having it here, elsewhere is cool with me.
Click to expand...

I don't think you're a 'raging Islamophobe' at all, but you did make an Islamophobic statement, and it was hardly 'mild disagreement'. And when I said 'some dude', I wasn't referring to you specifically. I also don't think you're a 19th century misogynist - I'm actually genuinely surprised by your position in this debate, and your apparent assertion that rape culture isn't a thing in 21st century western societies, because usually you do actually listen to what other people have to say about something.

I'm not saying all men are rapists, obviously. But most of the people who commit sexual assault/harassment are men, and most of the people who experience sexual assault/harassment are women, and pretty much all women have to consider this as a risk in their day-to-day lives. That does make it a gendered problem - and it's a problem for which women are shouldering the burden. Non-rapist-men should be doing a bit better than saying '#notallmen, therefore not my problem'. The cultural climate in which this happens rests on a particular version of masculinity that most men do benefit from (not all, but most) - it's really up to all those men to recognise this and do something about it. And it's not up to us to work out what that 'something' is.
 
I'll take you up on it, Blue, I'm not sure where it belongs though as it is clearly not lifestyle related, and far off topic for this thread. My desire to discuss it "privately" had nothing to do with hiding your or my stance, and more to to with the fact that while I'm prepared to discuss it one on one, I do not want it turning into what this thread has devolved to. So let me know where you'd like to set that up and I'll gladly do. I appreciate your willingness to listen to another perspective on the concept.
 
KimGordon67 said:
I don't think you're a 'raging Islamophobe' at all, but you did make an Islamophobic statement, and it was hardly 'mild disagreement'. And when I said 'some dude', I wasn't referring to you specifically. I also don't think you're a 19th century misogynist - I'm actually genuinely surprised by your position in this debate, and your apparent assertion that rape culture isn't a thing in 21st century western societies, because usually you do actually listen to what other people have to say about something.

I'm not saying all men are rapists, obviously. But most of the people who commit sexual assault/harassment are men, and most of the people who experience sexual assault/harassment are women, and pretty much all women have to consider this as a risk in their day-to-day lives. That does make it a gendered problem - and it's a problem for which women are shouldering the burden. Non-rapist-men should be doing a bit better than saying '#notallmen, therefore not my problem'. The cultural climate in which this happens rests on a particular version of masculinity that most men do benefit from (not all, but most) - it's really up to all those men to recognise this and do something about it. And it's not up to us to work out what that 'something' is.
Click to expand...
You said in that post at the top that I will dismiss or listen to arguments based on the sex of the person making them. AKA 'A 19th century misogynist'.
If you don't think that describes me then why did you say it?

I've already said that I realize it's a gendered problem, twice, I made posts toward you and JS telling you that I am in support of altering the cultural climate, and my argument isn't "#notallmen", it's that I think your particular argument is inconsistent in application of responsibility and that I too don't know what that "something" you mentioned would be or that it's even obtainable. You're mixing my stuff up with Nezhul's a bit. I guess a concise summary would be that I think even though we obviously should work to reduce the frequency of any bad thing happening, I don't see any reason to believe that training men to feel personally responsible for gendered problems is a desirable or effective solution.
Angedesoleil said:
-Islam-
Click to expand...
I was recently talking with yuukonnights about New Age spirituality on a thread called God and Stuff which would be more on topic than here.
 
Blue said:
You said in that post at the top that I will dismiss or listen to arguments based on the sex of the person making them. AKA 'A 19th century misogynist'.
If you don't think that describes me then why did you say it?

I've already said that I realize it's a gendered problem, twice, I made posts toward you and JS telling you that I am in support of altering the cultural climate, and my argument isn't "#notallmen", it's that I think your particular argument is inconsistent in application of responsibility and that I too don't know what that "something" you mentioned would be or that it's even obtainable. You're mixing my stuff up with Nezhul's a bit. I guess a concise summary would be that I think even though we obviously should work to reduce the frequency of any bad thing happening, I don't see any reason to believe that training men to feel personally responsible for gendered problems is a desirable or effective solution.

I was recently talking with yuukonnights about New Age spirituality on a thread called God and Stuff which would be more on topic than here.
Click to expand...

I don't know which post you're referring to.

If it's a gendered problem, but men aren't responsible for trying to fix it, then who is?

Yes, you've recognised that it's a gendered issue, but you've also denied the existence of rape culture in 21st century western societies. So what is this 'cultural climate' that needs to be changed?
 
KimGordon67 said:
I don't think you're a 'raging Islamophobe' at all, but you did make an Islamophobic statement, and it was hardly 'mild disagreement'. And when I said 'some dude', I wasn't referring to you specifically. I also don't think you're a 19th century misogynist - I'm actually genuinely surprised by your position in this debate, and your apparent assertion that rape culture isn't a thing in 21st century western societies, because usually you do actually listen to what other people have to say about something.

I'm not saying all men are rapists, obviously. But most of the people who commit sexual assault/harassment are men, and most of the people who experience sexual assault/harassment are women, and pretty much all women have to consider this as a risk in their day-to-day lives. That does make it a gendered problem - and it's a problem for which women are shouldering the burden. Non-rapist-men should be doing a bit better than saying '#notallmen, therefore not my problem'. The cultural climate in which this happens rests on a particular version of masculinity that most men do benefit from (not all, but most) - it's really up to all those men to recognise this and do something about it. And it's not up to us to work out what that 'something' is.
Click to expand...

This. And I’m surprised, too. And kind of let down. Which is why I’ve been more quiet than usual.
 
KimGordon67 said:
I'm not saying all men are rapists, obviously. But most of the people who commit sexual assault/harassment are men, and most of the people who experience sexual assault/harassment are women, and pretty much all women have to consider this as a risk in their day-to-day lives.
Click to expand...
Which basically sums up the #metoo movement. It's impossible to argue with this, despite the best attempts by some.

That does make it a gendered problem - and it's a problem for which women are shouldering the burden. Non-rapist-men should be doing a bit better than saying '#notallmen, therefore not my problem'. The cultural climate in which this happens rests on a particular version of masculinity that most men do benefit from (not all, but most) - it's really up to all those men to recognise this and do something about it. And it's not up to us to work out what that 'something' is.
Click to expand...

While I agree with what you've just said, I believe that the problem can be largely attributed to the hashtag that was often found with #metoo; #allmen.
It comes across as an accusation. A very blunt and offensive accusation that if you're a man, then you're a rapist. You don't need to be a great thinker to follow the logical steps.
rapists = scum
men = rapists
i = man
but i =/= rapist
therefore #allmen is bullshit
by extension #metoo is bullshit

If the hashtag was "all men need to be part of the solution" then I'd be behind it 100% but that's probably too unwieldily as a hashtag.
 
Zionisacat said:
Which basically sums up the #metoo movement. It's impossible to argue with this, despite the best attempts by some.



While I agree with what you've just said, I believe that the problem can be largely attributed to the hashtag that was often found with #metoo; #allmen.
It comes across as an accusation. A very blunt and offensive accusation that if you're a man, then you're a rapist. You don't need to be a great thinker to follow the logical steps.
rapists = scum
men = rapists
i = man
but i =/= rapist
therefore #allmen is bullshit
by extension #metoo is bullshit

If the hashtag was "all men need to be part of the solution" then I'd be behind it 100% but that's probably too unwieldily as a hashtag.
Click to expand...

Have you checked the numbers on those hashtags? Just curious
 
Zionisacat said:
Which basically sums up the #metoo movement. It's impossible to argue with this, despite the best attempts by some.



While I agree with what you've just said, I believe that the problem can be largely attributed to the hashtag that was often found with #metoo; #allmen.
It comes across as an accusation. A very blunt and offensive accusation that if you're a man, then you're a rapist. You don't need to be a great thinker to follow the logical steps.
rapists = scum
men = rapists
i = man
but i =/= rapist
therefore #allmen is bullshit
by extension #metoo is bullshit

If the hashtag was "all men need to be part of the solution" then I'd be behind it 100% but that's probably too unwieldily as a hashtag.
Click to expand...

This would work if there was an #allmen.
Not that I’ve seen, ever.

It’s just another attempt to take this off the woman and make it about the man.
 
Farawyn said:
This would work if there was an #allmen.
Not that I’ve seen, ever.

It’s just another attempt to take this off the woman and make it about the man.
Click to expand...

That’s why I asked about numbers. I don’t remember ever seeing it either,
Though I was seriously perplexed to read an article today that said 39% of men were unaware of the #metoo movement
 
LostGirlTink said:
Have you checked the numbers on those hashtags? Just curious
Click to expand...

I hadn't but now that I have (or think that I have) I realise that it's probably all in my head.

Farawyn said:
This would work if there was an #allmen.
Not that I’ve seen, ever.

It’s just another attempt to take this off the woman and make it about the man.
Click to expand...

My bad. I could have sworn there was. Probably one tweet that stuck in my brain burrowing away.
 
KimGordon67 said:
I don't know which post you're referring to.

If it's a gendered problem, but men aren't responsible for trying to fix it, then who is?

Yes, you've recognised that it's a gendered issue, but you've also denied the existence of rape culture in 21st century western societies. So what is this 'cultural climate' that needs to be changed?
Click to expand...
I was referring to the post that I've re-read and only now realize I interpreted so completely ass-backwards that I can't actually understand the logic I was using in those responses. I might have been having a small delusion, just disregard it. I get what you meant now.

So far I've actually tried to ignore the "rape culture" thing because I have no idea what you mean by it.
I'm not actually denying the existence of anything you've said so far. I know there are areas where social progress has stagnated and act as hold-outs for outdated concepts of abuse, or that there are still mechanism men can exploit to harass and abuse women, or that there is sometimes a lack of proper awareness of consent, etc etc. My problem is with the frequency you seem to be saying these things occur at. When you say 'rape culture' that takes it to an extreme in that what I'm hearing is a claim that there is rampant society-wide tolerance or permissiveness of sexual abuse, specifically rape and not unwanted attention, when, while not refusing to acknowledge that does exist to a degree, our cultural zeitgeist as a whole blatantly and demonstrably doesn't contain that. We live in the single most zealously (rightly so) anti-abuse culture in the world.

That's sort of why I was so miffed at that tumblr post which implied the existence of such a reality where enough men care so little about sexual abuse that it could be applied as a blanket statement similar to "men like war games". How can I be expected to not be annoyed by that? Just to be clear; I don't think all I just said is what you believe but its the framework which my mind is building based on the language.
 
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