Depraved Indifference

LincolnDuncan

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Is the US guilty of depraved indifference at the southern border?

Depraved Indifference Law and Legal Definition
To constitute depraved indifference, the defendant's conduct must be 'so wanton, so deficient in a moral sense of concern, so lacking in regard for the life or lives of others, and so blameworthy as to warrant the same criminal liability as that which the law imposes upon a person who intentionally causes a crime. Depraved indifference focuses on the risk created by the defendant’s conduct, not the injuries actually resulting.

In one case, People v Register, 60 NY2d 273, 469 NYS2d 599 (1983),while exploring the meaning of "depraved indifference recklessness" the Court of Appeals ruled that intoxication is not a defense or excuse to "depraved mind murder," although it may be to intentional murder. Its analysis started with distinguishing reckless manslaughter from the "depraved indifference recklessness" necessary for murder:

"to bring defendant’s conduct within the murder statute, the People were required to establish also that defendant’s act was imminently dangerous and presented a very high risk of death to others and that it was committed under circumstances which evidenced a wanton indifference to human life or a depravity of mind. . . . . The crime differs from intentional murder in that it results not from a specific, conscious intent to cause death, but from an indifference to or disregard of the risks attending defendant’s conduct." 60 NY2d at 274.

https://definitions.uslegal.com/d/depraved-indifference/
 
Is the US guilty of depraved indifference at the southern border?

Depraved Indifference Law and Legal Definition
To constitute depraved indifference, the defendant's conduct must be 'so wanton, so deficient in a moral sense of concern, so lacking in regard for the life or lives of others, and so blameworthy as to warrant the same criminal liability as that which the law imposes upon a person who intentionally causes a crime. Depraved indifference focuses on the risk created by the defendant’s conduct, not the injuries actually resulting.

In one case, People v Register, 60 NY2d 273, 469 NYS2d 599 (1983),while exploring the meaning of "depraved indifference recklessness" the Court of Appeals ruled that intoxication is not a defense or excuse to "depraved mind murder," although it may be to intentional murder. Its analysis started with distinguishing reckless manslaughter from the "depraved indifference recklessness" necessary for murder:

"to bring defendant’s conduct within the murder statute, the People were required to establish also that defendant’s act was imminently dangerous and presented a very high risk of death to others and that it was committed under circumstances which evidenced a wanton indifference to human life or a depravity of mind. . . . . The crime differs from intentional murder in that it results not from a specific, conscious intent to cause death, but from an indifference to or disregard of the risks attending defendant’s conduct." 60 NY2d at 274.

https://definitions.uslegal.com/d/depraved-indifference/


I presume this is the death to which you refer: https://wgntv.com/2018/12/14/7-year-old-migrant-girl-held-at-us-border-dies-in-custody/

This is truly a shame, but I don't see what the border patrol could have done differently, short of throwing open the border and letting everyone in. If anybody committed "depraved indifference" it was the parents of the child tho put her through this dangerous and exhausting trek.
 
I presume this is the death to which you refer: https://wgntv.com/2018/12/14/7-year-old-migrant-girl-held-at-us-border-dies-in-custody/

This is truly a shame, but I don't see what the border patrol could have done differently, short of throwing open the border and letting everyone in. If anybody committed "depraved indifference" it was the parents of the child tho put her through this dangerous and exhausting trek.

That is the incident which motivated this thread but that's far from the only horrible story at the border. The actions I read about and see are beyond depraved indifference which I read to mean being able to render assistance but failing to do so. In many cases it seems that they are intentionally creating conditions which cause physical and emotional harm.

You can blame the parent and that's another discussion but when you assume custody of someone, you are also assuming a moral responsibility to a reasonable degree for their care. Even in war between allegedly civilized countries.
 
In these times, I don't blame the United States for much of anything. In these times I separate what increasingly looks like a rouge Trump administration from United States anything. The Trump administration is an asset of the Russian oligarchs that conned and cheated itself into position and is looting the national treasury for the Trump family as quickly and as long as possible before someone stops the circus. With the complicity of the Republicans in Congress, the Trump administration is being "other" than the United States.
 
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In these times, I don't blame the United States for much of anything. In these times I separate what increasingly looks like a rouge Trump administration from United States anything. The Trump administration is an asset of the Russian oligarchs that conned and cheated itself into position and is looting the national treasury for the Trump family as quickly and as long as possible before someone stops the circus. With the complicity of the Republicans in Congress, the Trump administration is being "other" than the United States.

I feel some complicity if I say or do nothing. This is an issue I won't joke about. We can't stand for this.
 
That's not really responsive. Your reference was the United States. And I don't feel complicity because I'm not saying or doing nothing. I don't see why it is assumed for anyone else either, including the United States. I'll stick with I don't equate the Trump administration with the United States, so I'm not accepting the premise of the OP.
 
That's not really responsive. Your reference was the United States. And I don't feel complicity because I'm not saying or doing nothing. I don't see why it is assumed for anyone else either, including the United States. I'll stick with I don't equate the Trump administration with the United States, so I'm not accepting the premise of the OP.

Keith, I understand your point. I'm in no way comparing what is being done at the southern border with the extermination of millions of people in Germany but I also think that those German citizens who didn't identify with Nazis had some complicity in the killing if they were aware and indifferent.

Keith, have you seen Band of Brothers? I'm thinking of the very well done episodes when the allies liberated camps and drafted German citizens to participate in burying the dead.
 
While it is obvious that Trumpistan is depraved, the indifference comes from Congress, who are supposed to counterbalance the President.

Mitch and Paul, Grassley, Hatch and many others should have their cocks punched firmly, then jailed. Not to forget Nunes, of course.:)
 
Keith, have you seen Band of Brothers? I'm thinking of the very well done episodes when the allies liberated camps and drafted German citizens to participate in burying the dead.

No I haven't seen Band of Brothers. And the point I see you making that I reject is that either the United States or everyone in the United States is guilty/complicit because of what the Trump administration is doing. They aren't. He was even rejected by a majority of the individual voters. Folks are doing what they can to weed him out. Only those directly supporting him (and those who aren't doing/saying anything) are complicit. The rest of us make up the vast majority. I do not accept responsibility for what Trump is and does. I don't think everyone else need do so, either.
 
Specific incident aside I would say that, yes, the US in general is often guilty of depraved indifference in the implementation of some of our national and international policies. History is rife with examples - the one that immediately pops to my mind is our nearly indiscriminate use of drones and stand-off weaponry with "acceptable" levels of collateral damage. Another one that pops to mind is our national tendency to get into bed with foreign governments that support our policies and then prop them up with CIA and black operations, both actively engaging in extra-legal activities and passively supporting the folks who are engaged in them. For me, that criticism cuts cleanly across party lines.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boxlicker101 View Post
I presume this is the death to which you refer: https://wgntv.com/2018/12/14/7-year-...es-in-custody/

This is truly a shame, but I don't see what the border patrol could have done differently, short of throwing open the border and letting everyone in. If anybody committed "depraved indifference" it was the parents of the child tho put her through this dangerous and exhausting trek.

That is the incident which motivated this thread but that's far from the only horrible story at the border. The actions I read about and see are beyond depraved indifference which I read to mean being able to render assistance but failing to do so. In many cases it seems that they are intentionally creating conditions which cause physical and emotional harm.

You can blame the parent and that's another discussion but when you assume custody of someone, you are also assuming a moral responsibility to a reasonable degree for their care. Even in war between allegedly civilized countries.

I somewhat agree with you, but I would describe "depraved indifference"as being an action, rather than the lack of action. Even so, I can't help but think the migrants should be treated better than they are. Ordinary human decency should mandate providing food and water to those who are extremely in need, especially young children. I have seen pictures of the little girl who died and she reminded me of some of my grandchildren.

And, yes, there was a moral responsibility to take care of urgent needs. Once the BP was aware of the distress of the child in question, they took her to the hospital, but it was too late by then.
 
In these times, I don't blame the United States for much of anything. In these times I separate what increasingly looks like a rouge Trump administration from United States anything. The Trump administration is an asset of the Russian oligarchs that conned and cheated itself into position and is looting the national treasury for the Trump family as quickly and as long as possible before someone stops the circus. With the complicity of the Republicans in Congress, the Trump administration is being "other" than the United States.

Are you saying the Trump administration uses makeup on their faces?
 
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Depraved Indifference
Casual Cruelty
Indifferent Cruelty
Deliberate Cruelty

The de facto policy of this administration* is to make the refugee experience so deadly as to discourage people from attempting to flee to this country. The de facto policy of this administration is to whiten the population of this country by any means necessary. (That's why a racist goon like Stephen Miller works in the White House, whereas, with any other president, he wouldn't be allowed within 100 miles of the District of Columbia.) This policy is general throughout the government. While this child was dying in custody, the folks over at ICE once again used her fellow refugees as bait, rounding up people who'd come forward to "sponsor" an immigrant child. As I said, cruel, but not unusual.

Article IX of the international Convention on the Rights of the Child which, in 1989, the U.S. government bravely signed, only to have the U.S. Senate bravely refuse to ratify it, pretty much spells out everything that's wrong with the current policy that has led to this child's death.


(gsgs comment- A fine picture of Homeland Security Secretary Kirstjen Nielsen, in her usual state- simmering with resentment and anger.)

https://www.esquire.com/news-politi...girl-die-trump-administration-cruelty-casual/
 
I don't start many threads and I didn't give this one much thought but it occurred to me as a citizen of the US, that wise people with a sense of humanity determined that to merely be indifferent to and failing to render assistance to those in harms way was criminal. Aside from that, I feel a moral responsibility to be concerned about the rest of humanity each day.
 
It's so cute how you made fun of his typo with your typo . . .

BoxedLiquor is a big bucket o' cuteness. He is the one who astutely pointed out that migrants cannot walk from Arizona to California because of this thing called the Grand Canyon.

He's truly an expert on migrant issues, so pay close attention to what he has to say about depraved indifference.
 
The reason this is happening is because of this exterminationist thinking towards Mexican immigrants--promoted by Trump but pervading the whole "right" or whatever you want to call it.

It is INFURIATING and makes me feel so helpless and hopeless I simply don't know what to do. They've been on a jihad against brown people. Deporting fathers and mothers, kidnapping kids, gassing and dumping out water so they die in the desert. It doesn't bother them because they all think like Bellisarius. It's just filth, cockroaches, etc.

That evil Nazi Stephen Miller has been let loose, and it's all being enabled and protected by the Republicans in power.

Yes it is depraved indifference to human life. And it applies to their attitudes towards mass shootings, and while we're at it health care of Americans and the very existence of the planet as well.

It's probably the primary reason I come here to these Boards to vent in whatever way. It makes me so mad and I hate these people with a burning passion.


I don't start many threads and I didn't give this one much thought but it occurred to me as a citizen of the US, that wise people with a sense of humanity determined that to merely be indifferent to and failing to render assistance to those in harms way was criminal. Aside from that, I feel a moral responsibility to be concerned about the rest of humanity each day.
 
The reason this is happening is because of this exterminationist thinking towards Mexican immigrants--promoted by Trump but pervading the whole "right" or whatever you want to call it.

It is INFURIATING and makes me feel so helpless and hopeless I simply don't know what to do. They've been on a jihad against brown people. Deporting fathers and mothers, kidnapping kids, gassing and dumping out water so they die in the desert. It doesn't bother them because they all think like Bellisarius. It's just filth, cockroaches, etc.

That evil Nazi Stephen Miller has been let loose, and it's all being enabled and protected by the Republicans in power.

Yes it is depraved indifference to human life. And it applies to their attitudes towards mass shootings, and while we're at it health care of Americans and the very existence of the planet as well.

It's probably the primary reason I come here to these Boards to vent in whatever way. It makes me so mad and I hate these people with a burning passion.

We are on the same page as far as this goes. I'm also frustrated by my inability to affect change in a substantial way. I try to be aware and to make small contributions when I can.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hMxkxBGJbFg
 
The point is to be cruel—to perform the cruelty against The Other so the Ralph Steadman figures who show up to the rallies will keep whooping and hollering and chanting the president's name.

Our callousness will not make the border region safer, or stop desperate people from coming. The most dependable effect is that it will get people's blood pumping at a campaign rally. But with all this happening, all around us and under our noses, how much longer can we continue to read ourselves the bedtime stories about America—the Shining City on a Hill, the Nation of Immigrants, the Land of the Free and the Home of the Brave—before the book starts to crumble in our grasping hands?

https://www.esquire.com/news-politi...irl-immigrant-die-ice-deport-foster-families/
 
BoxedLiquor is a big bucket o' cuteness. He is the one who astutely pointed out that migrants cannot walk from Arizona to California because of this thing called the Grand Canyon.

He's truly an expert on migrant issues, so pay close attention to what he has to say about depraved indifference.

Ah . . . I get him. Had been completely ignoring him up until now.
 
I don't start many threads and I didn't give this one much thought but it occurred to me as a citizen of the US, that wise people with a sense of humanity determined that to merely be indifferent to and failing to render assistance to those in harms way was criminal. Aside from that, I feel a moral responsibility to be concerned about the rest of humanity each day.

I am inclined to agree with you, although my heart apparently doesn't bleed as much as yours. I don't have any figures, but I would venture to say the USA renders more assistance to victims of things such as earthquakes, tsunamis, volcanic eruptions and similar events than any other nation in history. That's in addition to the financial assistance to much of the third world.

As for the child who is the subject of this thread: Her problems were pre-existing, and her parents should never have left their homes with her. They became worse on the trek north, while she was in Mexico. They became much worse after she crossed the border and, when her plight became known, she was given medical assistance, but it was too late by then.

This was a very sad thing, but I don't see what I or anybody else on this forum could have done about it. Some would say the USA should invite in everybody in the world, but we are not capable of supporting everybody who comes to us with tin cups extended. During the great wave of immigration in the 19th century, people who immigrated to this country had families and/or jobs waiting for them or were well enough off financially that they would have been no burden. That is not the case with the migrant caravans.
 
I am inclined to agree with you, although my heart apparently doesn't bleed as much as yours. I don't have any figures, but I would venture to say the USA renders more assistance to victims of things such as earthquakes, tsunamis, volcanic eruptions and similar events than any other nation in history. That's in addition to the financial assistance to much of the third world.

As for the child who is the subject of this thread: Her problems were pre-existing, and her parents should never have left their homes with her. They became worse on the trek north, while she was in Mexico. They became much worse after she crossed the border and, when her plight became known, she was given medical assistance, but it was too late by then.

This was a very sad thing, but I don't see what I or anybody else on this forum could have done about it. Some would say the USA should invite in everybody in the world, but we are not capable of supporting everybody who comes to us with tin cups extended. During the great wave of immigration in the 19th century, people who immigrated to this country had families and/or jobs waiting for them or were well enough off financially that they would have been no burden. That is not the case with the migrant caravans.

I’m looking at the situation at the southern border politically and spiritually. I’m sure that the US helps during world - wide humanitarian crisis. I’m also aware that neither you or on or anyone at Lit is directly responsible for the conditions in South America which cause people to walk for months to a country where they know they’re not welcome by many. I also am aware that the US can’t absorb every refugee in the world.

Spiritually, I was raised with Christian values that still have meaning for me, but I also believe in karma. What you do to the least of my brothers, you do to me. It is in giving that we receive. Cast your bread upon the water. Evangelical Christians should be concerning themselves with doing what is best for humanity and have faith that in doing so God will provide.

I appreciate your honest and forthright posts on this thread.
 
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