the marks of a slave

catalina_francisco said:

While I get what you are saying, what I was referring to was in part as Homburg said, but also some of what you speak of in that you keep coming back to it is important for you to be content and happy to be able to serve him best and enhance his contentment. While we all like to believe our PYL will not break or harm us, I think once TPE is entered into nothing is written in stone and if it so happens that the PYL decides on an action they know will not affect their slave well, be well accepted etc., it is their right to put their needs ahead of the slaves contentment. It may not make for a blissful existance at times, but then I have always felt if I wanted guarantees and my needs to be paramount I would have nominated to remain a submissive at best.

For me to say I have given my life to him, it translates to he now owns me totally and makes the decisions about how he treats me, what happens to me. With that I cannot expect he will do only those things I react and feel positively about and that he be forever mindful that his happiness and contentment must necessarily rely on how happy and content he keeps me with the understanding if he doesn't do what makes me happy, it will then come back on him in a negative way. I can't give myself to him and then insist or expect he act in a certain manner which pleases me 100%. Similarly, if he feels I can improve myself in a particular way which will please him, he will tell me and expect me to remodel myself accordingly, not so much me deciding how I can improve myself and acting on it. For others it may be different, but for me, as much as I may not be happy, sometimes downright depressed and/or shattered about something he does/decides/says, it is what I agreed to do my best at accepting and adapting to when giving him power over me and my life.

Catalina

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I've been thinking a lot about this statement, Catalina.

He has made unilateral decisions that have left me reeling. Destroying something I'm working on. Challenging my sense of personal security. Requiring me to do something that I couldn't handle at all.

These are not events that I can overcome in a day, or even a month. These are not the type of moments that tender aftercare soothes.

These are the events that make me question everything.

I can say, in retrospect, that every time I lost something, I gained something else. And every time I thought he put me in danger, I was never hurt.

The problem is that moment when you're shattered.

***************************************

It was always my own actions that brought me back.

And when I was finally able to pick up the pieces, I had the chance to put them together in new ways. In ways that more closely conformed to the truth that I'm learning. In ways that allow more open space inside.

If I can keep from crowding myself with plans and ambition, thoughts and desires, I can be more receptive to the truth of the world around me, and the actions that need to be taken.

And if I focus on my actions, there's really nothing to lose.

****************************************

I know this is vague. Perhaps I'll explore the details another time.
But I am interested in how other people have dealt with these shattering moments.

this slave's fantasy

It’s a dark winter night. There’s a club in the warehouse district that we like to frequent. You, dark and devilish, are dressed in black - your long wool coat open to the night. My soft leather trenchcoat is buttoned. Only my boots are visible. You’re carrying your crop and a satchel. We’ve known each other a long time.

When we arrive at the club, the doorman nods us in. We walk past the long bar to the back. We’ve been here before. We know where we’re going. When we find our wall, you put down your bag. I take off my coat. I am naked. My legs are long and lovely. My waist is narrow. My breasts small and firm. My hair falls down my back in loose curls. I am divine.

On the wall behind me are two soft cords. Turning me, you take my right hand and, kissing my neck, my arm, the inside of my elbow, you gently place my hand in the noose of the cord and pull it tight. With one hand raised, I stand silent and passive. A small crowd has begun to gather, curious, expectant.

You walk behind me, tracing the line of my arm until you reach my back. Gently you lift my hair and place it over my shoulder. On my back, vines are tattooed. Curling over my left shoulder, across my back, down my waist and wrapping around my right hip, where the tips of the vines disappear into my thighs. I am Eve. You are Adam. We have tasted the fruit of knowledge and come back for more. Ejected from the garden, we have painted it on my body, and return again and again to seek entry into Paradise.

You press the crop between my legs. I open them. Standing close to me, you trace the vines from my inner thigh, around my hip, up my back to my shoulder, where again, kissing my neck and arm and hand, you raise my left hand to the second noose.

I stand now, legs spread, arms raised. You step back to admire me. The men in the crowd who have women on their arms begin to search out their breasts and thighs. The lone wolves cross their arms, or place their hands in their pockets. No one but you will touch me.

- December 2005

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I wrote this a few years ago, based on a scene I witnessed at the Zone in NYC, circa 1992.

I have wanted to be this woman ever since.

She, and Polly Peachum, are my sexual role models.

the problem with a slave's fantasy. . .

I may want to be that woman. He does not want to be that man.

He called me over to the table last night. His manner made me nervous. So I approached him, smiling uncomfortably. "Yes?"

"Why do you get that stupid shit-eating grin when you're supposed to be serving me?"

"I don't know." I'm unsettled, self-conscious, my voice falters. "Nerves, I guess."

"Stop."

I giggle.

"Stop giggling."

I pull my face straight.

"I don't want you to laugh. Or smile. You laugh too much."

I try to adopt a serious tone. "Ok."

I'm wrestling with my impulses, trying to contain myself. Trying to adopt a more reverential attitude.

When suddenly, he sticks his fingers in his ears, his tongue out at me, and wiggles them all wildly.

I nearly piss myself laughing.

He turns his attention back to his laptop, with a slight shrug. I feel like I have a long way to go.

Oh I do this all the time. He'll grab my hair or catch me at an unguarded moment and I suddenly get the giggles. Cue a stand off and even an impactplay session until he feels he is receiving the proper respect.

The more he tells me to stop, the more impossible it is.

Sometimes if he's speaking to me harshly, it'll happen. It's partly a nervous thing but he can beat my ass raw and I'll often still be chuckling, it's really hard to stop once I've started.

Once he put me on my knees and had me suck his cock to shut me up.

That didn't last long. Few Ms can enjoy a blowjob while their s is crying with laughter on their cock.

HC would have been livid I imagine.

VelvetDarkness said:

Oh I do this all the time. He'll grab my hair or catch me at an unguarded moment and I suddenly get the giggles. Cue a stand off and even an impactplay session until he feels he is receiving the proper respect.

The more he tells me to stop, the more impossible it is.

Sometimes if he's speaking to me harshly, it'll happen. It's partly a nervous thing but he can beat my ass raw and I'll often still be chuckling, it's really hard to stop once I've started.

Once he put me on my knees and had me suck his cock to shut me up.

That didn't last long. Few Ms can enjoy a blowjob while their s is crying with laughter on their cock.

HC would have been livid I imagine.

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in any event where HC has found his way in my mouth to stop my laughing, Master has been laughing like crazy too. it usually works that way.

Kathykitten said:

When I think of silent treatment as a form of abuse is when it is used regularly, intentionally, and in full knowledge to distanse the slave, and in general bring her emotional and mental torment. Using it as a tool to shape the slave by breaking her down from the inside to build her as something else. (as opposed to inspiering her to becomming what the master seeks).
I am just convinced that the intended use of silent treatment as a tool of teaching can give a lot of long term scars.

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I just saw this - the somewhat subtle distinction between abuse and inspiration. And I have to agree with Catalina's earlier point here. As a "slave" in a TPE, you aren't guaranteed that your experience will be either pleasurable or inspiring. It might be painful and difficult for long periods of time without a clear benefit in sight.

In fact, I'd like to suggest that the real benefit a "slave" derives from her experience is not self-improvement, or even the pleasure of becoming a better "slave." It is simply the learned wisdom and behavioral tools that come from working with the negative feelings that inevitably arise when you put someone else's well-being ahead of your own. (Usually the same negative feelings we try like hell to avoid in life.)

I think I agree that most of us "slaves" hope that our experience will make us better people, but really, if you look closely, that's just our own desire talking. . .

Homburg said:

When I am forced to punish (and by "forced" I mean that one of the few standing rules that have actual punishment as a consequence have been broken), I despise it. I spend the time before the punishment raking myself over the coals, trying to figure out where I went wrong, where I failed to communicate the virtuous path. Far too often, _I_ am the one to blame, because I did not set expaectations, rewards, and consequences up properly to prevent what happened. The punishment occurs because those are the consequences, and to help to prevent the same behaviour from recurring. And I hate it.

Part and parcel to TPE is realising that _I_ am wholly responsible for my chattel, and her mistakes in judgement are my mistakes in preparation.

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This statement has been haunting me for a few days because it is EXACTLY how I feel in that situation. The last time I was faced with something like that, my hands were shaking, but it wasn't out of anger at her, not at all. It was out of upset with myself for letting that situation come about, and concern that nothing I could now do would be the same as having prevented it in the first place.

"Hate" isn't a word I use casually, but I absolutely do hate it.

Zoots_owner said:

This statement has been haunting me for a few days because it is EXACTLY how I feel in that situation. The last time I was faced with something like that, my hands were shaking, but it wasn't out of anger at her, not at all. It was out of upset with myself for letting that situation come about, and concern that nothing I could now do would be the same as having prevented it in the first place.

"Hate" isn't a word I use casually, but I absolutely do hate it.

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Yes. Very much so.

I remember one incident in particular and I shall never forget it, as my stomach was churning so badly that I honestly wanted to vomit afterwards.

Yay for uber bad-ass Master-ful control, right?

eastern sun said:

I just saw this - the somewhat subtle distinction between abuse and inspiration. And I have to agree with Catalina's earlier point here. As a "slave" in a TPE, you aren't guaranteed that your experience will be either pleasurable or inspiring. It might be painful and difficult for long periods of time without a clear benefit in sight.

In fact, I'd like to suggest that the real benefit a "slave" derives from her experience is not self-improvement, or even the pleasure of becoming a better "slave." It is simply the learned wisdom and behavioral tools that come from working with the negative feelings that inevitably arise when you put someone else's well-being ahead of your own. (Usually the same negative feelings we try like hell to avoid in life.)

I think I agree that most of us "slaves" hope that our experience will make us better people, but really, if you look closely, that's just our own desire talking. . .

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Well, I think it does. But that's between you and you. It really has very little to do with your Owner. You can credit them if you want, and a lot of romanticized-hoo-ha does. Shaping and molding all that. Really it's the internalized shaping that's interesting to me. What's seri's sigline, it's not that you're hurt it's how you take it?

Homburg said:

Yes. Very much so.

I remember one incident in particular and I shall never forget it, as my stomach was churning so badly that I honestly wanted to vomit afterwards.

Yay for uber bad-ass Master-ful control, right?

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I tried one physical punishment with M, who is NOT a slave. Ick. It felt like hitting a cat with a newspaper. Anyone who knows anything about cats knows how pointless and icky that is.

Physical/elaborate punishment with H is pretty much unneccessary, there's nothing I've ever been unable to get back on track with a talk, but that's just how I roll. I'm not a punishment fan, but that's for having tried it a few times. Can I just say, yuck. Nothing in my makeup enjoys this. And I love beating people and making them upset, but only for no/fun/any reason, not because they're ticking me off.

Maybe it's a Femme thing. Adore my awesome or whatever, someone else will? I have no idea. I still think my cats and dogs theory has some validity, too. Some people are cats and chiding them is never going to get them to get it right, while inspiring them, making them feel even safer, giving them their food when they sit - will. (I have a cat who gives high-5's. They WILL train, but not like dogs, obviously.)

99 percent of the time, if H fails it's because I've failed in communicating the import of the task, the way to get it done or something. It's not "oh A for effort" it's simply been demonstrated time and again that the focus and will to do it ARE there if I don't muck up the communication of it. He's definitely a dog, a very very submissive one where a simple NO will have him piddling in fear.

Netzach said:

Well, I think it does. But that's between you and you. It really has very little to do with your Owner. You can credit them if you want, and a lot of romanticized-hoo-ha does. Shaping and molding all that. Really it's the internalized shaping that's interesting to me. What's seri's sigline, it's not that you're hurt it's how you take it?

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Yes, I totally agree. But it's still based on my own desire that it be so. My desire to be a better person. And my ability to make my desires come true.

Maybe it isn't possible to be totally free from desire. Maybe it isn't even desirable.

But if I hold on too tightly to what I want, I will definitely suffer.

***********************************************

He threw a new one at me the other night, probably in response to something I'd written. . . "Your actions don't matter. The only thing that matters is that you're an empty vessel ready to be filled by me." Apart from the obvious, I'm not quite sure what he meant.

I know he doesn't want me to be a cipher, or a mimic, or even a mirror. It would bore him immensely.

So what does he mean?

I know he wants me to be in that state of readiness that allows me to respond spontaneously to his desires with creativity and without hesitation. I know he wants me to be unafraid. I know he wants me to stop putting up defenses that enable me to wrest just that bit of control away from him.

I think what he means is that I've been using my actions like a hook to hang my "slavery" on. "See? See what I'm doing. See what I've done." (Isn't that the basic hypocrisy of this thread?)

And I am still hanging on to the idea of "slavery" as the doing of things. Yes, the doing of difficult things. Even the doing of things I don't want to do. And the many layers of experience that accompany the doing of things (the feelings, the consequences, the cause and effect, etc. etc.)

I'm not sure what would happen if I let go of my actions. Do I just wait? (I don't think that's what he meant.)

I'm reminded of the Buddhist monk who claims "there is nothing to do. nowhere to go."

Does anyone know what then?

Oh and after he threw that at me, he threw the empty lube bottle. I felt it bounce off my back, as he said "you need to get some more."

Netzach said:

<snip>I still think my cats and dogs theory has some validity, too. Some people are cats and chiding them is never going to get them to get it right, while inspiring them, making them feel even safer, giving them their food when they sit - will. (I have a cat who gives high-5's. They WILL train, but not like dogs, obviously.)

99 percent of the time, if H fails it's because I've failed in communicating the import of the task, the way to get it done or something. It's not "oh A for effort" it's simply been demonstrated time and again that the focus and will to do it ARE there if I don't muck up the communication of it. He's definitely a dog, a very very submissive one where a simple NO will have him piddling in fear.

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Hmm. I play like a cat, but I think I'm a dog! Not sure how literally I should take this.

There are areas within which I can play bratty, princess, etc., but beyond that I don't go there. But it wouldn't work if my PYL were to micromanage me to the nth degree.

eastern sun said:

<snip>I think what he means is that I've been using my actions like a hook to hang my "slavery" on. "See? See what I'm doing. See what I've done." (Isn't that the basic hypocrisy of this thread?)

And I am still hanging on to the idea of "slavery" as the doing of things. Yes, the doing of difficult things. Even the doing of things I don't want to do. And the many layers of experience that accompany the doing of things (the feelings, the consequences, the cause and effect, etc. etc.)

I'm not sure what would happen if I let go of my actions. Do I just wait? (I don't think that's what he meant.)

I'm reminded of the Buddhist monk who claims "there is nothing to do. nowhere to go."

Does anyone know what then?

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It's an interesting wrinkle that your Master reads this, and you write with the perspective of that awareness. I guess that's neither here nor there, except maybe that it makes me feel like a total voyeur (not necessarily a bad thing ).

It's funny you mention control (and Buddhism!). Control is an illusion. I can follow all the rules you set before me, but it's not actions that make a slave. It's the mindset.

Heh. I like the cat/dog thing. He has so many cat metaphors for me that it's not even funny. And he's right, of course.

intothewoods said:

It's funny you mention control (and Buddhism!). Control is an illusion. I can follow all the rules you set before me, but it's not actions that make a slave. It's the mindset.

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Yes, I think you're right.

But I'm also reminded of the famed chicken and the egg.

On any given day, which comes first. . . the mindset or the action?

Netzach said:

I tried one physical punishment with M, who is NOT a slave. Ick. It felt like hitting a cat with a newspaper. Anyone who knows anything about cats knows how pointless and icky that is.

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wow. the cat and the newspaper is a hard image to shake. . . .

When I was a little tiny girl (maybe three or four years old), I used to think cats and dogs were in the same species, just that cats were the girls and dogs were the boys.

I'm not sure it's relevant or anything. It's just what I thought.

I'm angry at him. Mostly for being an insensitive clod and doing something I've complained about when others did. He's not doing it for effect because he isn't that kind of person. I'm sure he honestly just forgot. It still hurt my feelings, though.

Why am I putting this in the "marks of a slave" thread? I'm not sure, really. Maybe because if it were anyone else, I'd either a.) overlook it and say something like, "Well, consider the source", or b.) be like, "Hey, you're acting like a jackass. Knock it off."

With him, it's different. Even though it's my feelings that were hurt, I feel like I still need to take his into account somehow. I can talk to him about pretty much everything, but I have a hard time talking to him about how I feel about him, and I know I lean on him too much as it is. So I never know how to approach the "dude, you fucked up and really hurt my feelings by being an insensitive clod" type of conversations.

He's not one of those "I demand complete 100% transparency" Masters. If I didn't mention it, he'd never know anything was wrong, and that'd be ok. It's probably something small and stupid to get all worked up over, anyhow. But it still hurts. I never know if I should tell him these things or not. On one hand, I know I'll get over it in a day or two. There's probably not much sense in bugging him about something so trivial. But on the other hand, I know how I let resentments build up inside me, too. I never know what to do in these situations.

It reinforces my place, the uncertainty does. How do you tell the person who holds your mind, body, and spirit in the palm of his hand that he's fucked up? SHOULD you even tell him? "Sir, I'm pouty" seems a bit too juvenile, even for me. Maybe I should just suck it up and go on.

I always feel so slave-like and little girl-ish when I have something I need to tell him.

BiBunny said:

I'm angry at him. Mostly for being an insensitive clod and doing something I've complained about when others did. He's not doing it for effect because he isn't that kind of person. I'm sure he honestly just forgot. It still hurt my feelings, though.

Why am I putting this in the "marks of a slave" thread? I'm not sure, really. Maybe because if it were anyone else, I'd either a.) overlook it and say something like, "Well, consider the source", or b.) be like, "Hey, you're acting like a jackass. Knock it off."

With him, it's different. Even though it's my feelings that were hurt, I feel like I still need to take his into account somehow. I can talk to him about pretty much everything, but I have a hard time talking to him about how I feel about him, and I know I lean on him too much as it is. So I never know how to approach the "dude, you fucked up and really hurt my feelings by being an insensitive clod" type of conversations.

He's not one of those "I demand complete 100% transparency" Masters. If I didn't mention it, he'd never know anything was wrong, and that'd be ok. It's probably something small and stupid to get all worked up over, anyhow. But it still hurts. I never know if I should tell him these things or not. On one hand, I know I'll get over it in a day or two. There's probably not much sense in bugging him about something so trivial. But on the other hand, I know how I let resentments build up inside me, too. I never know what to do in these situations.

It reinforces my place, the uncertainty does. How do you tell the person who holds your mind, body, and spirit in the palm of his hand that he's fucked up? SHOULD you even tell him? "Sir, I'm pouty" seems a bit too juvenile, even for me. Maybe I should just suck it up and go on.

I always feel so slave-like and little girl-ish when I have something I need to tell him.

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Hey, BiBunny. I think I understand how you feel, though I don't know what you should do. Take some time before you choose how you'll react. Or what you'll say.

Speaking only for myself, I try not to mention it while I'm still hurting. I used to, and it was almost always because I wanted him to make me feel better, and change the way he treated me. I wanted him to be nice to me to make up for the insensitivity I hoped wasn't really going to last. (However, many years have passed now, and unfortunately, the only time he isn't insensitive is when he isn't. )

It has helped me immensely to fold the fact of his insensitivity into his identity as "master." In other words, maybe I might expect something different from my boyfriend, or my husband, but from my "master" I simply get what I get.

Then it's up to me to take care of my hurt feelings. Not him.

That might mean bringing them to a forum like this, and hearing other people say good things about me. That might mean wrestling with some painful ideas about what I do and don't "deserve" in life.

I think it always means remembering that I am deep down wonderful, and his insensitivity is just his way of doing things. (In other words, he could be doing it to someone else, and probably would.) Once I decide to be with him, I get all of him, the good and the bad.

Life is trial and error. Once you choose to do something, you'll have the chance to see how the situation changes (or doesn't). And then choose again. . . .

Anyone who chooses to be a "slave" will have to wrestle with pain, both petty and profound. (Actually, every living creature I know has to wrestle with pain. As a "slave," I just do it a tiny bit more consciously, without "comfort" as my final goal.)

And as I'm sure you know that can be a very interesting experience. . . .

BiBunny said:

I never know how to approach the "dude, you fucked up and really hurt my feelings by being an insensitive clod" type of conversations.

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On a practical level, if he has a strong "masterly" persona, he might not want to be chided or made to feel like he was an insensitive clod. As you mentioned already, he probably doesn't even know what he did.

When I have to tell him something he won't want to hear, I try to be as gentle as possible. Giving him enough space to let him make the choice of how he will respond, rather than hinting at how I think he should respond.

And when I do criticize him, I try to make sure I'm right. (And know that he knows I'm right.) And fill it with humor and love.

I should say, too, that I have spent many, many years working with this. I have had a lot of opportunities for trial and error! (And I'm sure he will puncture my little self-satisfied hot air balloon when he reads this. . . .)

I hope you will let us know what you decided to do, and how it worked out between you.

eastern sun said:

Yes, I think you're right.

But I'm also reminded of the famed chicken and the egg.

On any given day, which comes first. . . the mindset or the action?

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Heh. Well, I just know that when I compare my actions to a slave's actions, I may or may not see a difference. Thinking of myself as property is when it becomes difficult for me. It's hard for me to get what it is that makes a slave, since there isn't really a single model or definition.

To just say that someone is property doesn't really make it all clear. My cell phone and a piece of family jewelry are both property, but I obviously treat them differently. I have said before, well, I can't be a slave because I don't do x. And inevitably someone will come back and say, well, that's not our model of slavery anyway. Ultimately, the word that comes to mind when I think of me and my PYL, again and again, is partnership. Not equal, but still, a partnership.

eastern sun said:

Hey, BiBunny. I think I understand how you feel, though I don't know what you should do. Take some time before you choose how you'll react. Or what you'll say.

Speaking only for myself, I try not to mention it while I'm still hurting. I used to, and it was almost always because I wanted him to make me feel better, and change the way he treated me. I wanted him to be nice to me to make up for the insensitivity I hoped wasn't really going to last. (However, many years have passed now, and unfortunately, the only time he isn't insensitive is when he isn't. )

It has helped me immensely to fold the fact of his insensitivity into his identity as "master." In other words, maybe I might expect something different from my boyfriend, or my husband, but from my "master" I simply get what I get.

Then it's up to me to take care of my hurt feelings. Not him.

That might mean bringing them to a forum like this, and hearing other people say good things about me. That might mean wrestling with some painful ideas about what I do and don't "deserve" in life.

I think it always means remembering that I am deep down wonderful, and his insensitivity is just his way of doing things. (In other words, he could be doing it to someone else, and probably would.) Once I decide to be with him, I get all of him, the good and the bad.

Life is trial and error. Once you choose to do something, you'll have the chance to see how the situation changes (or doesn't). And then choose again. . . .

Anyone who chooses to be a "slave" will have to wrestle with pain, both petty and profound. (Actually, every living creature I know has to wrestle with pain. As a "slave," I just do it a tiny bit more consciously, without "comfort" as my final goal.)

And as I'm sure you know that can be a very interesting experience. . . .

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That part in bold is good advice for anyone!

Netzach said:

I tried one physical punishment with M, who is NOT a slave. Ick. It felt like hitting a cat with a newspaper. Anyone who knows anything about cats knows how pointless and icky that is.

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Cat punishment is possible, but it is not always effective and requires that you look absolutely stupid while doing it (just like a cat to make you pay for punishing them). That said, my cats are very well behaved because they DESPISE being punished.

I know what you mean though. Punishing either of my girls feels both pointless and icky. Discussion is generally the most effective thing to do. Making sure they fully understand beforehand is the most effective method.

*sigh*

Maybe it's a Femme thing. Adore my awesome or whatever, someone else will? I have no idea. I still think my cats and dogs theory has some validity, too. Some people are cats and chiding them is never going to get them to get it right, while inspiring them, making them feel even safer, giving them their food when they sit - will. (I have a cat who gives high-5's. They WILL train, but not like dogs, obviously.)

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*shurg* If it is a Femme thing, I'm apparently Femme-ish on this topic. Serve because you need to serve me, if you don't, someone else will.

99 percent of the time, if H fails it's because I've failed in communicating the import of the task, the way to get it done or something. It's not "oh A for effort" it's simply been demonstrated time and again that the focus and will to do it ARE there if I don't muck up the communication of it.

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This is something I know the feeling of all too well.

The more I've thought about this, the more I realize I need to talk to him, even if it something that seems petty and stupid. Thank you, Eastern Sun, for your words, by the way. They helped reinforce what I was already thinking myself.

I worked for a bit and then drove to my parents' house. It's about an hour and a half drive, most of it just open country roads, so I had plenty of time to think. I realized that what I'm upset about is only the tip of the iceberg. I'm having an insecure moment, I guess, and need reassuring that my place is still secure. Or something.

So I reckon I have to talk to him, as bad as I hate to. I'm going to feel like a real fool saying, "Oh, I'm just as fragile as a china doll around this time of year and need you to pet my head and tell me how special I am."

Seriously, it feels like it's a waste of his time for me to even go to him with this. But I know if I don't do it, I'll just be a pain in the ass. So, after the weekend, I'm going to speak with him, I suppose.

Neither of us are big on talking about our feelings. When I have to approach him, I always feel five years old and intimidated. I hate this shit....

It has helped me immensely to fold the fact of his insensitivity into his identity as "master." In other words, maybe I might expect something different from my boyfriend, or my husband, but from my "master" I simply get what I get.

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Again, this just seems like an especially prime mature relationship.

The expectations we have on some of these things are fantasies, and the moments when our significant others remind us, rather stunningly, that they are independent of us, our desires, and our motives, are usually somewhat painful if you can't separate yourself.

That wonderful soul-merging-fondue-melting-thing is good sex and only OK policy.

Netzach said:

Again, this just seems like an especially prime mature relationship.

The expectations we have on some of these things are fantasies, and the moments when our significant others remind us, rather stunningly, that they are independent of us, our desires, and our motives, are usually somewhat painful if you can't separate yourself.

That wonderful soul-merging-fondue-melting-thing is good sex and only OK policy.

Click to expand...

You're right, Netzach. But should an M/s relationship be something other than a "mature relationship"?

What's interesting to me is that the only way we've been able to discover how to have a mature relationship is by entering into the M/s dynamics.

Maybe a bigger question is "why do I need to feel like a "slave" in order to treat him well"?