Pope Bashing?

...

Ineffability is about divine guidelines, but as a Catholic you have to accept everything the Vatican says until they change their mind down the line.

The main argument about the Catholic Church is the same one that started Protestantism:

If you are a Catholic, you can only address God, and obtain forgiveness for your sins, through an ordained priest.

If you are Protestant, you can address God directly.

Og
 
Mr Blackitt: Look at them, bloody Catholics. Filling the bloody world up with bloody people they can't afford to bloody feed.

Mrs Blackitt: What are we, dear?

Mr Blackitt: Protestant, and fiercely proud of it...

Mrs Blackitt: Why do they have so many children...?

Mr Blackitt: Because every time they have sexual intercourse they have to have a baby.

Mrs Blackitt: But it's the same with us, Harry.

Mr Blackitt: What d'you mean...?

Mrs Blackitt: Well I mean we've got two children and we've had sexual intercourse twice.



Complete sketch on youtube. :devil:
 
SO the Pope can be fallible, except when he speaks ex cathera, and the Church can be fallible except on doctrine and stuff, when that is the "Truthiness"?

But they can't be held accountable for some hard working archbishop, buried in the bowels of the bureaucracy and isolated from the damage to the population, only sensitive to the "needs of the Church", when he decides to protect the institution rather than follow the teachings of Christ? :eek:

Is that about it?

Very strange religion?:confused:

Nearly.
ex cathedra stuff is to do with doctrine, faith and belief.

But is there much difference in actions between the the church and a government ? Both have secretive members doing things that would not be popular if discovered by the general populace.
It just takes the church longer to do something.
 
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The main argument about the Catholic Church is the same one that started Protestantism:

If you are a Catholic, you can only address God, and obtain forgiveness for your sins, through an ordained priest.

If you are Protestant, you can address God directly.

Og

Protestants are given God's personal cell number. Catholics still have to go through the receptionist and personal assistant.

After reading the latest news, I find Ratzinger to be a curious choice for Pope. He was elected by his peers, who certainly knew him better than most.

The pedophile sex scandal has been hanging over the church for more than 30 years. It cost them a fortune before it became generally known and its only gotten more expensive since it was exposed.

There are a lot of questions about Ratzinger's election. Why would the Cardinals choose a man who essentially covered up and perpetuated the problem. They may have believed he was the person most qualified to deal with the scandal.

Some people believe it was his J Edgar Hoover type files, which held personal information on all top level church Clergy.

Another idea is that the election was malicious. He was elected Pope because in that office, he could not escape responsibility for his past actions.
 
This is from Tuesday's Times. Bertone doesn't speak without knowing he has the Popes 100% backing! He is his mouthpiece.

www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article7096149.ece

As an aside, a few years ago I was called in to advise an overseas Insurance Company that had decided to exit Australia. Obviously they wanted to repatriate their capital but couldn't do that until they had satisfied the regulators that they were leaving enough money in the country to pay their liabilities. We looked at their claims book and discovered some 30 claims against the priests of a particular church estimated to cost $3.8million. We re-assessed the liabilities under this heading at just under $11 million.

This was a protestant evangelical church specialising in missionary work. It is not just a Catholic problem but I think that the RC church's default response is always to hush things up which makes it much worse.
 
to ogg and bronze; note to allardch

Originally Posted by oggbashan
The main argument about the Catholic Church is the same one that started Protestantism:

If you are a Catholic, you can only address God, and obtain forgiveness for your sins, through an ordained priest.

If you are Protestant, you can address God directly.


Og

Bronze: Protestants are given God's personal cell number. Catholics still have to go through the receptionist and personal assistant.

==

this is a kind of protestant 'urban legend' --as i'm sure ogg and bronze are aware. there is no evidence supporting this claim.

The truth is that Catholics besides God, ALSO pray to Mary and saints *for intercession*.

http://runningmom.wordpress.com/2007/04/24/why-dont-catholics-just-pray-directly-to-god/

http://www.catholic-pages.com/prayers/other.asp

[examples of prayers directly to God:] see “act of faith” --of hope, love, contrition.

grace before meals

prayer before a crucifix

http://www.catholic.com/library/Common_Catholic_Prayers.asp [nihil obstat; imprimatur--- i.e. officially sanctioned]

act of contrition,

anima christi

===

And like many protestants, Catholics pray to Jesus, though sometimes as intercessor.

No, i'm not a catholic.

==

note to allardch:

The fact that Catholics must believe the dogma without question makes it difficult for me to believe it. Not that the Catholics care if I believe, unlike the born-agains.

sorry, but you are mistaken if youre saying Catholic differ from protestants on this issue; i realize your intentions are not dishonorable: you have heard of the Apostle's Creed, and the Nicene Creed? these are *defining* and are repeated in many mainstream protestant churches. they are *dogma*, i.e. NOT exactly biblical, but based in tradition, church councils, etc. IF you don't believe them, arguably you're not a protestant because you're not a xian; they are widely used in conversion or membership-related ceremonies.

as to your second point: if catholics didn't care, it's hard to explain the Church fathers who went to what is now California, what is now Quebec, not to speak of current missions in Bolivia, where i'm personally acquainted with a priest involved.

they simply don't go knocking on your door like some protestants and other related sects (mormons, jehovah's witnesses).
=====
to all posters--

this thread despite its initial factual basis, is becoming a moral superiority thread. i challenge posters to name any multimillion dollar, structured [i.e. administratively hierarchical] protestant, outreach or educational organization/entity -esp. one dealing with young persons or children-- that has not suffered from corruption, including sexual misconduct and its coverup. indeed this holds for NON religious organizations/entities as well. did you read about oprah's school in south africa?

money and power corrupt, especially with lack of transparency or of accountability; it's a human thing. that's my contention.

[note this is an unofficial, personal opinion and reaction having nothing to do with my being a moderator]
 
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this is a kind of protestant 'urban legend' --as i'm sure ogg and bronze are aware. there is no evidence supporting this claim.

The truth is that Catholics besides God, ALSO pray to Mary and saints *for intercession*.

...
this thread despite its initial factual basis, is becoming a moral superiority thread. i challenge you to name any multimillion dollar, structured [i.e. administratively hierarchized] protestant, outreach or educational organization/entity that has not suffered from corruption, including sexual misconduct and its coverup. indeed this holds for NON religious organizations/entities. did you read about oprah's school in south africa?

money and power corrupt, especially with lack of transparency or of accountability; it's a human thing. that's my contention.

[note this is an unofficial, personal opinion and reaction having nothing to do with my being a moderator]

"Urban legend" is not the best term for it, but it's close. It is a common theological misconception in Protestant churches.

In many Protestant sects, a lay persons personal revelation is given as much weight as the words of his educated and trained minister. This is the main reason there are so many Protestant sects, each with their own peculiar twist of the theology. Most of the differences are of no consequence to anyone but members of that church.

The Catholic Church tries to keep this kind of thing under control by keeping all authority on spiritual matters in the hands of the clergy.
 
I had a lot to catch up on here this morning and it was very enjoyable as well as informative.

I was kidding about the Catholics not caring if I believe, I married into a family of Italian Catholics from a bohemian background, quite a shock!

Now I can sleep again knowing the Vatican has forgiven the Beatles. Par for the course, only two Beatles are still alive because the church waited so long.

HOMOSEXUALS are the cause of priestly pedophilia? OMG Is the Vatican completely insane? Just because a person likes his own sex does NOT mean they like sex with KIDS!

This has become a very interesting thread, indeed!
 
Protestants are given God's personal cell number. Catholics still have to go through the receptionist and personal assistant.

After reading the latest news, I find Ratzinger to be a curious choice for Pope. He was elected by his peers, who certainly knew him better than most.

The pedophile sex scandal has been hanging over the church for more than 30 years. It cost them a fortune before it became generally known and its only gotten more expensive since it was exposed.

There are a lot of questions about Ratzinger's election. Why would the Cardinals choose a man who essentially covered up and perpetuated the problem. They may have believed he was the person most qualified to deal with the scandal.


Some people believe it was his J Edgar Hoover type files, which held personal information on all top level church Clergy.

Another idea is that the election was malicious. He was elected Pope because in that office, he could not escape responsibility for his past actions.

The other Cardinals probably covered up worse. What if Joey Ratz was the only non-ped Cardinal? "Alright, we need a new Pope. So...who in here hasn't been caught diddling an altar boy? Anyone??"
 
I was pleased to see others viewed the Catholic Church as a large corporation, protecting itself even when they know they are wrong, like so many businesses across the world. Being in the business of God does not make their business practices any more honorable than the men who ran Wall Street into the ground. It seems the Vatican is on a similar destruct pattern with the latest headlines targeting homosexuals.
 
Ever wondered about the difference......

The fact that Catholics must believe the dogma without question makes it difficult for me to believe it. Not that the Catholics care if I believe, unlike the born-agains.

How true!!

There's been several posts about the differences between Catholicism and Protestantism. (Is that a word?)

Here's how I see it.

I was brought up attending one of the Protestant churches. You went in, sat down and generally stayed down except to get up a sing a few hymns.

Then in a (futile) attempt to impress a Catholic girl, I went with her to Mass several times. You go in, make these gestures over your chest before getting into and also upon leaving the church and/or a pew. During Mass you stand up and sit down repeatedly. At some point during Mass everyone else gets to have a snack and wash it down with a drink. I thought this was great until my almost girlfriend told me I wasn't qualified. At another point you are supposed to shake hands with all those around you in a gesture of peace. This forced me to shake hands with her father who had other things on his mind towards me. Then there is that body of Jesus on the cross. He wasn't there in my Protestant church. I wasn't sure why this difference existed but by now I had enough sense not to ask. Finally after the last Mass I attended some guy walked up and asked me if I wanted to become a Knight of Columbus. I thought that sitting on a horse while decked out in shining amour and waving around a sword would be way cool and just might salvage the relationship. Alas...it turned out that I wasn't qualified.

So, the difference is....Protestant churches will take anybody!!! :D
 
The first defense when someone is accused is "I didn't do it." The second is, "It wasn't as bad as you're making it out to be. You're a sensationalist trying to sell a story, trying to tear me down for personal reasons."

At a certain point the business of media is a business and is trying to sell a story. Most people will believe everything that comes out about someone or a group in the media all the way down to "Saddam Hussein is equivalent to Hitler, that's why we must attack Iraq!" It's been part Pope bashing since he became Pope. Was he a Nazi youth? Was he a protector of child molesters? It's really irrelevant what he is or was, he's either the Pope or the Great Satan depending on which organization you aligned yourself with when you were sixteen or eight or thirty-eight.
That's the political breakdown, now how about the whole question of "character"?
 
I do remember reading somewhere that in the 50s especially homosexual men sought the sanctity of the church for a livelihood free from judgment. Priests could not marry and, therefore, these men did not stand out in society as being strange for not dating women. This did not make them pedophiles, IMO. That is an entirely different thing.
 
I do remember reading somewhere that in the 50s especially homosexual men sought the sanctity of the church for a livelihood free from judgment. Priests could not marry and, therefore, these men did not stand out in society as being strange for not dating women. This did not make them pedophiles, IMO. That is an entirely different thing.

Whenever I see a priest I assume he's asexual or in fear of his sexuality. I didn't think there existed a priest who desired women until that one priest from Miami left the priesthood because he found a vagina that was that fucking good. Imagine if your vagina was good enough to make a priest quit his covenant to God? This guy wasn't going to hide it either, he was proud and pretty much declared: "This woman's vagina is too good. I can't possibly keep it a secret like my homo and pedo brethren."
 
priest-on-the-beach-with-ruhama-buni-canelles.gif


This woman's vagina vs. God and the One True Catholic and Apostolic Church

Vagina: 1 Church: 0
 
This is from the article by Top Cardinal Tarcisio Bertone,

"At least one of the paedophile priests in the Chilean Church victimised young girls, including a teenager who became pregnant.

At the time the archbishop of the capital, Santiago, received multiple complaints about Father José Andrés Aguirre. However, the priest — known to his parishioners as Father Tato — continued serving at a number of Catholic girls schools in the city.

Later the Church sent Aguirre out of Chile twice amid abuse allegations. He was eventually sentenced to 12 years in prison for abusing 10 teenage girls.

One of the girls, identified as Paula, said that she and the priest started to have sex when she was 16 and that it lasted until she was 20.

She told the Chilean newspaper La Nacion: “I thought it wasn’t that bad to have sex with him because when I told priests about it at confession they just told me to pray and that was it. They knew, and some of them guessed that it was Father Tato. But everyone looked the other way. No one corrected or helped me.” She said that one of the priests to whom she confessed about Aguirre was Bishop Francisco José Cox, who himself was facing allegations of paedophilia."


Priestly celibacy is the blame for this, I would assume.
 
Celibacy doesn't make priests pedophiles of boys or girls. They were pedophiles all along, got their chance and took it.
 
I guess the question becomes, "What makes a pedophile do what he does?" It seems it is like rape in the sense that it is not about the sexual act so much, it is more about the power they feel during the episode.
 
The Brits are thinking about arresting the Pope when he visits there in September for crimes covered up by him before becoming the Pope.

Here is the Vatican's response as quoted from the yahoo.news article, Vatican Scoffs at idea of arresting pope in Britain,

"Vatican spokesman Father Federico Lombardi scoffed. This is a bizarre idea to say the least. It looks like the intent is to make a public opinion splash. I think they should look for something more serious and concrete before we can respond to it," he said.

"The pope's visit (to Britain) is a visit of state, and so it would be very strange if during a state visit the person who is invited to make a state visit is arrested," he said.

Dawkins, a scientist and outspoken critic of religion, has asked human rights lawyers to examine whether charges could be brought against the pope during the September 16-19 trip.

The Vatican has rejected accusations the pope helped to cover up abuse by priests in jobs he held before his election in 2005 and has accused the media of waging a "despicable campaign of defamation" against him."
 
Celibacy doesn't make priests pedophiles of boys or girls. They were pedophiles all along, got their chance and took it.

Amen. When this stuff had been going on for a while, Georgetown University (a Catholic university that has a Catholic seminary) started checking on who they were letting into the seminary--and finding a lot of them were coming for the sex opportunities with children. There's a shortage of priests, though, so . . .
 
The so it would be very strange if during a state visit the person who is invited to make a state visit is arrested," he said.

Strange, but not out of the realm of possibilities. The United States didn't even wait for Panama's Noreiga to visit--they went to Panama and dragged him out on U.S. charges.
 
Strange, but not out of the realm of possibilities. The United States didn't even wait for Panama's Noreiga to visit--they went to Panama and dragged him out on U.S. charges.

Yeah but Noriaga wasn't the Pope, leader of the RCC, and besides, he wasn't sharing the money with the "right people."
 
Personal thought:
The sooner the RC church permits (I was going to use 'insists on') the use of condoms,
and
permits it's clergy to be married,

the better and more open it will be. It will force the paedophiles more into the open for prosecution.

Incidentally, the age of consent in the Vatican is 12.
 
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