Shame and Humiliation

The entire process is, in fact, employed explicitly in religion, where shame and humiliation are tools of behavioral modification employed according to institutional design - again, there's a reason BDSM retains the trappings of medieval control/disciplinary fashion and paraphernalia, and is often rife with ritualism and spiritual overtones, it's really the flip side of Christianity - not it opposite, necessarily, just the other side of the coin: shame, humiliation, and discipline employed explicitly for sexual gratification rather than it suppression for socio-political goals, which again, becomes a subversive act of rebellion against both the methodology and goals of institutionalism - transforming it into an existential act.

Stella_Omega said:

How would you set up an erotic situation around a personal and solely self-referential emotion?

I just can't see whacking off to the memory of the money I've squandered on nothing, or the time I failed to ... I dunno, perform in some way expected of me, in relation to my fellow human beings or my world.

Shame is about as unsexy an emotion as I can think of. It is not the same as humiliation.

Expiation for something shaming? With a sexual content? I'm not coming up with it, it seems like an incredibly slimy thing to visit on the shamed person.

(edited to say-- damn, if only I'd known varian was posting at the same time! )

Sex as an act-- is not even on my horizon of shame, although interpersonal issues between the actors of sex-- those might factor in.

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I don't know. I work in shame like an artist works in oils when I write. Female sexual shame. Female shame over sexual pleasure, over being thought a whore or slut, over violating her own sexual limits or codes. Or like Varian says, over desiring rape. I think this is a sexual phenomenon that's distinctly female. There is no male counterpart. Men don't feel shame over their sexual desires.

No, wait. I lie. For religious people, ethically rigid people, it affects men and women both. Shame and guilt over sex.

Is this cultural or biological. We'd no doubt say cultural, huh? But I wonder.

BlackShanglan said:

I'd say yes. What is the desire for erotic humiliation, but the desire for one's shame to be uncovered?

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Beautiful, Shang!

Uncovered and punished?

dr_mabeuse said:

No, wait. I lie. For religious people, ethically rigid people, it affects men and women both. Shame and guilt over sex.

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I think this is a cliche: it's more that women express shame as passivity, men are more likely to express it as aggression and project it - that's why men often reject the object of their basest desires: after getting your nut, she's just a whore/slut, and you kick her to the curb - the shame and humiliation come afterwords, and the entire process can be interpreted as one of dissociation and projection, very much still motivated by shame.

Staying on the secular side of the phenomena, I think it's more of a competitive thing with women, i.e., your competition is always sluttier than you are.

Either way, it provides a ready made excuse for a man to attempt impregnation and dissociate himself from the possible results, while for the "less slutty" female it's an opportunity to monopolize the male's resource contribution, as it implies social ostracism.

"Sluts" traditionally, function as sort of free range breeders, and biologically speaking, their social costs are offset by potential greater genetic diversity in their offspring.

xssve said:

I think this is a cliche: it's more that women express shame as passivity, men are more likely to express it as aggression and project it - that's why men often reject the object of their basest desires: after getting your nut, she's just a whore/slut, and you kick her to the curb - the shame and humiliation come afterwords, and the entire process can be interpreted as one of dissociation and projection, very much still motivated by shame.

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Yeah, a cliche, but I still maintain there's an erotic dimension to shame.

We were just talking about all the fun we miss out on by not being raised Catholic. That's shameplay. The sheer joy of transgression is shameplay.

What happens in BDSM when a sub is taken "beyond his/her limits"? The limits are either physical or moral, i.e., bounded by shame.

In fact, what is it that makes something "dirty" or "obscene" in the first place? It's not its purely biological nature. It's the association with guilt and shame.

dr_mabeuse said:

I don't know. I work in shame like an artist works in oils when I write. Female sexual shame. Female shame over sexual pleasure, over being thought a whore or slut, over violating her own sexual limits or codes. Or like Varian says, over desiring rape. I think this is a sexual phenomenon that's distinctly female. There is no male counterpart. Men don't feel shame over their sexual desires.

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I wish you would learn to limit your statements to your personal artistic viewpoint and refrain from sweeping statements, doc. I'm glad you said "I think" but-- you are one writer. You are not in contact with all the women out there, or all men-- you are not an authority, you're an artist.

You're a damn good artist, but.

(ETA)

No, wait. I lie. For religious people, ethically rigid people, it affects men and women both. Shame and guilt over sex.

Is this cultural or biological. We'd no doubt say cultural, huh? But I wonder.

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If this only affects religious and ethically rigid people, then-- it's cultural.

My friend's Cuban grandmother gave him some advice before she died, that I've always wished I had the discipline to use:

"To keep your dignity, you have to give up your pride."

Humility may be the one thing that can protect anyone from being humiliated.

dr_mabeuse said:

Beautiful, Shang!

Uncovered and punished?

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Only if you're doing it right.

(Thanks to Woody Allen)

shereads said:

Humility may be the one thing that can protect anyone from being humiliated.

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Beautifully thought and beautifully put, Shereads.

I think Dr. M is right (eventually) about shame being a cultural thing. I'd add that shame about sex is a capable of infinite variation. While shame that one feels desire for traditional heterosexual intercourse is perhaps most commonly assigned to or seen in women in Anglo/American culture of this time period, I think that the sheer awkward number of qualifiers in that sentence hints at how many other ways this can play out. For every variation imaginable to sex, there's the possiblity of shame attaching itself to that specific desire or behavior, given the right cultural conditions.

BlackShanglan said:

Beautifully thought and beautifully put, Shereads.

I think Dr. M is right (eventually) about shame being a cultural thing. I'd add that shame about sex is a capable of infinite variation. While shame that one feels desire for traditional heterosexual intercourse is perhaps most commonly assigned to or seen in women in Anglo/American culture of this time period, I think that the sheer awkward number of qualifiers in that sentence hints at how many other ways this can play out. For every variation imaginable to sex, there's the possiblity of shame attaching itself to that specific desire or behavior, given the right cultural conditions.

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Leaving us with the question of what about the person who discards shame and therefore cannot be humiliated? The forgoing set of statements would indicate that such a person also discards eroticism? I'm sure that is not what is meant. Thus must it be that the one who is erotically stimulated by shame and humiliation is neither shamed nor humiliated because it's fun.

voluptuary_manque said:

Leaving us with the question of what about the person who discards shame and therefore cannot be humiliated? The forgoing set of statements would indicate that such a person also discards eroticism? I'm sure that is not what is meant. Thus must it be that the one who is erotically stimulated by shame and humiliation is neither shamed nor humiliated because it's fun.

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Personally, I wouldn't go with either of the conclusions. A person without shame and therefore incapable of humiliation would have all sorts of erotic options open - just not eroticized shame or humiliation, because s/he did not feel those emotions. I feel that eroticism can attach to a very wide array of feelings and behaviors; to be unable to feel it in connection with those two leaves the person still with a very wide range of erotic options.

As for the latter - "Thus must it be that the one who is erotically stimulated by shame and humiliation is neither shamed nor humiliated because it's fun" - I'd answer by analogy that the person who is erotically stimulated by pain doesn't fail to feel the pain. It's just considered pleasurable under the right circumstances. Similarly, the person who eroticizes shame and humiliation doesn't fail to feel them. Feeling them is central to the experience.

I would add, too, that everything sexual occurs within a context. Just as one can't say that even obvious sorts of physical stimulation are always erotic, given that they aren't when performed by the wrong person or in the wrong setting, so too with pain, shame, or humiliation. I don't know of any pain fetishist, however dedicated, who looks forward to accidentally slamming a finger in a car door, nor anyone who eroticizes shame and humiliation to such a degree as to enjoy being made to feel stupid in front of a group of co-workers. Part of what eroticizes any behavior is its appearance in the erotic context, a sort of give-and-take in which the two create each other.

voluptuary_manque said:

Leaving us with the question of what about the person who discards shame and therefore cannot be humiliated? The forgoing set of statements would indicate that such a person also discards eroticism? I'm sure that is not what is meant. Thus must it be that the one who is erotically stimulated by shame and humiliation is neither shamed nor humiliated because it's fun.

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Huh? Lol.

Allow me to sum up my argument.

The ability to feel shame is a biological trait, and therefore must have originally served some biological purpose, and/or still does.

This purpose presumably has something to do with socialization, if only because it's difficult to imagine what other purpose it might possibly serve.

Given that shame is is a trait that serves some social purpose, and is subject to enculturation, and cultural influence (authority figures, peer pressure, etc.), whatever anoetic purpose it might have originally served has been overlaid by noetic cultural influences.

Shame is different than humiliation in that shame is an admission of guilt and an admission of guilt implies the need for forgiveness, whereas nobody gives a shit how the humiliated person feels, that's sort of the idea: it implies the utter disregard of another persons emotional state for whatever reason, and forgiveness is dependent upon a display of shame followed by contrition, or, as I mentioned previously, you just don't give a shit.

Shame is highly eroticized, for all these reasons, but primarily because it is most commonly employed as a social control tactic to repress erotic energy, real or imagined. And that energy has to go somewhere - in this culture, presumably into Narcissistic compulsion, buying more personal care products, clothes, cars, electronics, and other consumer goods to... make yourself more sexually attractive. Hey, it works, no?

Humiliation is less eroticized, not eroticized at all in fact for the average person as a regular thing, as it implies a disregard for ones emotional state and sexual response is largely emotional and said emotions tend to rather more center on the emotional sensitivity of ones partner, even if objectification/humiliation/shame is the explicit goal.

Not to say there may not be certain exceptions: individuals who crave or respond erotically for largely existential reasons, and presumably it can be eroticized either through circumstance or conditioning.

That about sums it up for my part, thus far - as an example, Eskimos share their wives, a shameful thing for Europeans, and most peoples who live in densely populated areas, where competition tends to override cooperation, as a general rule, whereas a people living on the very edge of survival prioritize their status values and social relationships differently.

Given the competitive nature of human culture, shame is most often employed w/regard to sexual activity, it's most closely associated with sexual activity, and in contemporary urban culture, broadly, in the official culture, shame is associated almost exclusively with sex. George Bush can fuck up everything in sight, but as long as he keep it in his pants, or at least manages not to get caught he's merely lame (see Victor Ashe, Jeff Gannon) whereas Clinton getting outed about a blowjob is reason to stop the presses, and the official reaction is "outrage", with some conservatives going so far as to mention "ethnic cleansing".

So, yeah, shame is deeply associated with sex, we don't want our daughters getting pregnant by their callow friends, our wives getting pregnant by our callow friends, etc., and shame is one way to keep people, women in particular, in line, when the burden of taking care of them is officially on the man - not to do so is a very shameful thing for men, and that's pretty much the dynamic in European culture.

Europeans themselves, of course, appear to have moved on in many ways, and at least appear to be well into a sexual revolution of their own, while in America, we have rediscovered shame and momism is alive and well in the Red states, i.e., where female roles are largely confined to that of sexless disciplinarian, and consequently, the old school shame dynamic is back with a vengeance.

I think the question becomes, can we ever actually get away from it, as a culture? Certainly individuals can overcome it, if you have enough money you can just tell everybody to get stuffed, you can move to friendlier environs, etc.

My feeling is, the pendulum swings, people can only get so uptight before they crack, and all hell breaks loose, liek that episode of Star Trek where everybody raves once a year before going back to their joyless homogeneous existence (an actual phenomena, I'm convinced of it, repressed sexual energy comes out in weird ways, and not just among Vulcans, Catholic priests too) - then of course, you must live with the shame.

So, I guess it's there no matter what you do, might as well have fun with it.

dr_mabeuse said:

Yeah, a cliche, but I still maintain there's an erotic dimension to shame.

We were just talking about all the fun we miss out on by not being raised Catholic. That's shameplay. The sheer joy of transgression is shameplay.

What happens in BDSM when a sub is taken "beyond his/her limits"? The limits are either physical or moral, i.e., bounded by shame.

In fact, what is it that makes something "dirty" or "obscene" in the first place? It's not its purely biological nature. It's the association with guilt and shame.

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Definitely.

BlackShanglan said:

I would add, too, that everything sexual occurs within a context. Just as one can't say that even obvious sorts of physical stimulation are always erotic, given that they aren't when performed by the wrong person or in the wrong setting, so too with pain, shame, or humiliation. I don't know of any pain fetishist, however dedicated, who looks forward to accidentally slamming a finger in a car door, nor anyone who eroticizes shame and humiliation to such a degree as to enjoy being made to feel stupid in front of a group of co-workers.

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You're so right, I wish everyone understood that.

So many guys think because women like being complimented, his female coworker will like it when he says "you look nice in that sweater."

Stella_Omega said:

I wish you would learn to limit your statements to your personal artistic viewpoint and refrain from sweeping statements, doc. I'm glad you said "I think" but-- you are one writer. You are not in contact with all the women out there, or all men-- you are not an authority, you're an artist.

You're a damn good artist, but.

(ETA)If this only affects religious and ethically rigid people, then-- it's cultural.

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Okay, guilty, guilty. But you're an exception, and ignorant generalizations are the artist's prerogative, aren't they?

But you're right. I'm talking about my characters only, the stereotypes I portray, and I apologize. I'll try to limit my statements in the future. You're not the only one who's complained.

voluptuary manque said:

Leaving us with the question of what about the person who discards shame and therefore cannot be humiliated?

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For this person, sex is no longer dirty, but an entirely open and wholesome activity. They're no fun at all. If you ask me, what gives sex its power and profundity is its hidden and occult nature, its dirtyness and the fact that strong and puissant emotions like shame and fear are associated with it.

exxsve said:

Shame is highly eroticized, for all these reasons, but primarily because it is most commonly employed as a social control tactic to repress erotic energy, real or imagined. And that energy has to go somewhere - in this culture, presumably into Narcissistic compulsion, buying more personal care products, clothes, cars, electronics, and other consumer goods to... make yourself more sexually attractive. Hey, it works, no?

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That's a pretty brilliant point, talking about existential shame driving the consumer culture.

Another example comes to mind: shame and political conservatism. Conservatives are willing to forgive anyone who shows an acceptable (to them) level of shame over misdeeds no matter how heinous. They exhibit nothing but hatred for those who don't share their level of shame. Shame -- whether over failure to work & provide, physical weakness, deviance -- is at the heart of conservatism, and shame is met with punishment.

BlackShanglan said:

I don't know of ... anyone who eroticizes shame and humiliation to such a degree as to enjoy being made to feel stupid in front of a group of co-workers.

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V. well-known Japanese sexual fantasy. And it undoubtedly tips into reality.

Many Japanese people would have a very different take on the eroticism of shame.

dr_mabeuse said:

For this person, sex is no longer dirty, but an entirely open and wholesome activity. They're no fun at all. If you ask me, what gives sex its power and profundity is its hidden and occult nature, its dirtyness and the fact that strong and puissant emotions like shame and fear are associated with it.
.

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Foo on that! I'd much prefer to be a healthy animal with a rollicking, giggly sex life, thank-you very much. It's taken me a very long time to ditch the pathology of guilt, shame and disgust and I'm not about to backtrack for mere aestheticism. Art, BAH!

Note that I have no respect for German Expressionism, Mid-Century New York Expressionism or any other forms of depicted angst. What a bore!

voluptuary_manque said:

Foo on that! I'd much prefer to be a healthy animal with a rollicking, giggly sex life, thank-you very much. It's taken me a very long time to ditch the pathology of guilt, shame and disgust and I'm not about to backtrack for mere aestheticism. Art, BAH!

Note that I have no respect for German Expressionism, Mid-Century New York Expressionism or any other forms of depicted angst. What a bore!

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Right on. May you poop in the woods in Sylvan anarchy

dr_mabeuse said:

Okay, guilty, guilty. But you're an exception, and ignorant generalizations are the artist's prerogative, aren't they?

But you're right. I'm talking about my characters only, the stereotypes I portray, and I apologize. I'll try to limit my statements in the future. You're not the only one who's complained.

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Good form!

For this person, sex is no longer dirty, but an entirely open and wholesome activity. They're no fun at all. If you ask me, what gives sex its power and profundity is its hidden and occult nature, its dirtyness and the fact that strong and puissant emotions like shame and fear are associated with it.

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Yanno, this strikes a chord with me-- but although I eschew shame in my erotic leanings, fear-- that's a component That my characters play off of to a degree.

Also need tension, and relief, and a sense of being no longer in control. These are very strong emotions, without the element of shame.

I'm writing something now by request. It's a retraining story. This woman's previous master used to discribe how ashamed she was of her needs-- which she never was, but she never contradicted him since it seemed so important to him...
Now she's found a master more to her liking, more playful. He's done things like knock her into the mud and roll her in it, (which is how she found me and my writing) and lick into her nostrils. He's retraining her to ask for what she wants, which her old master never allowed. And, she says, the man nearly had her believing him when he talked about shame. He was teaching her this very crummy habit of thought.

That's a pretty brilliant point, talking about existential shame driving the consumer culture.

Another example comes to mind: shame and political conservatism. Conservatives are willing to forgive anyone who shows an acceptable (to them) level of shame over misdeeds no matter how heinous. They exhibit nothing but hatred for those who don't share their level of shame. Shame -- whether over failure to work & provide, physical weakness, deviance -- is at the heart of conservatism, and shame is met with punishment.

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WAAAH! I'm soo tired of politics!

When I first started to read this thread, I couldn't help but think WTF? Why would no one guess that the thread was about sex? lol, but then Shang and Stella, Joe, Sher and others came along (thankfully). I think this a fantastic query with some equally intriguing responses. I can't add anything that hasn't already been said, so I will simply leave you with this:

Shame is masturbating while thinking all your dead relatives are watching and chastising,"Why can't you get a husband!" Embarrassment is knowing they are watching while you masturbate and they are RIGHT!

CharleyH said:

...

Shame is masturbating while thinking all your dead relatives are watching and chastising,"Why can't you get a husband!" Embarrassment is knowing they are watching while you masturbate and they are RIGHT!

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You're so seeelee

I agree with CharleyH. Those dead relatives can put a real damper on a great masturbation session. In my case, I am married, although separated sexually, and have four children, so, the bad news is that those lurking relatives don't ever go away. I can hear them say, "Why are you still so sexual at 56? Don't you have anything better to do?"

Shamed by my sexual needs, I feel humilated and thrilled by my simple, rebellious act.

AllardChardon said:

I agree with CharleyH. Those dead relatives can put a real damper on a great masturbation session. In my case, I am married, although separated sexually, and have four children, so, the bad news is that those lurking relatives don't ever go away. I can hear them say, "Why are you still so sexual at 56? Don't you have anything better to do?"

Shamed by my sexual needs, I feel humilated and thrilled by my simple, rebellious act.

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lol

AllardChardon said:

I agree with CharleyH. Those dead relatives can put a real damper on a great masturbation session. In my case, I am married, although separated sexually, and have four children, so, the bad news is that those lurking relatives don't ever go away. I can hear them say, "Why are you still so sexual at 56? Don't you have anything better to do?"

Shamed by my sexual needs, I feel humilated and thrilled by my simple, rebellious act.

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Only 56? You're a baby!

My folks just recovered from honymoon-itis-- a shared bladder infection. They are in their late 70's. The nurses were thrilled.

Your av makes me smile right back at you, every time I see it, by the way.