Austin8
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Ok, so whey didn't somebody stand up and say You Lie! I don't have a problem with that at all, Go get um Joe!
A Question of, ‘Civility’, Between Opposing Ideologies…
- Thread starter amicus
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Ok, so whey didn't somebody stand up and say You Lie! I don't have a problem with that at all, Go get um Joe!
penandpaper
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Amicus,
I don't know if anyone here has ever met you in person, but there's a general rule one should live up to when discussing civility: If you can't say it to their face (no matter size, race, gender, etc.) then you should find another way to defend your view, or reflect on why you have to defend the view in the first place.
Having the anonymity of the internet just makes fools bold.
penandpaper
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Why does a zebra give up fighting when taken down even though it's not fatally injured? It's a question that can't be answered until your a zebra and taken down by a lion.
Passion for life is found togetherness and caring, not fighting every sense of comformity. If it weren't for conformity, you, nor I, would even exist today.
amicus
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amicus
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~~~
Y'know, Liar, et al, as I pursue history over a lifetime, I discover that few ever wish to admit the Barbarians are about to be at the gates before they actually are at the gates and then, guess what...it is too late.
Somewhere in our founding documents there is the sentiment that men are loathe to change, to give up comfort and safety, to seek engagement and resolve a threatening stituation. I could search and offer it up, but if you have an interest, you will seek it out yourself, if only to affirm my stipulation.
And I, as were the Colonist's way back when, did in fact present a 'civil' defense of their liberties before resigning themselves to action to defend their rights:
http://americanhistory.about.com/od/revolutionarywar/a/amer_revolution.htm
~~~
I have no idea how you view the war of Independence, nor the war of 1812, or the Civil War, I suspicion that you, and most, would say those events never had to occur if they had just 'civily' discussed their differences.
That you choose not to understand reflects the attitude of those who went quietly to their deaths in the events I described before.
I, for one, will not go quietly into that dark night, but exit, if I must, kicking and screaming. At least I will feel like a man and not a sheep.
Amicus
penandpaper
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You obviously have never observed animals eating one another. They give up all the time. Humans even give up on their young if they appear weak and frail. Read Nine Hills to Nambonkaha to understand the experience first-hand.
Conformity helped us build shelter, create languages, and understand each other's ideas. How do you not see that?
The greatest thing our country could do, is adhere to optimism: optimism in people, in leaders, in criminals, in children, and in ourselves. We are a great enough nation to overcome our need to fight, segregate and kill. It is not an atavistic quality!
Think of it, you want our country to do what no one else has ever done - become Edenic. Then the first step is to lay down your arms, accept others, and give them a big hug.
J
JAMESBJOHNSON
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Amicus,
I don't know if anyone here has ever met you in person, but there's a general rule one should live up to when discussing civility: If you can't say it to their face (no matter size, race, gender, etc.) then you should find another way to defend your view, or reflect on why you have to defend the view in the first place.
Having the anonymity of the internet just makes fools bold.
Pish posh. Its what we have. You cant speculate and induce a definte outcome to suit your wishes.
amicus
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Pen&Paper...please do not take this as a harsh invective concerning your stated philosophy, but know, if you don't as yet, that the major portion of all human literature is written by those who do not or cannot achieve and thus the write their dreams and fantasies.
There is an old Tom Selleck movie, "Quigby Down Under" or something like that, where a woman goes insane because she inadvertently suffocated her infant son, trying to keep him quiet durning an Indian attack in America.
Only in the corrupted minds of the limp left would a woman abandon her child or people give up their individuality for the security of conformity.
You have no understanding of homo sapiens at all, nada, none; and false, insipid dreams of peace through appeasement.
To be kind, I suppose, you, like many others, are a product of the education system of the last half century, and not really responsible for what you believe, since you accepted what was offered as 'faith' just like all the religions in the world, without ever engaging your mind.
But ignorance of reality will not protect you when they come to take you away. It will be those like myself, who value individual choice and freedom in opposition to the will of the majority, that will fight and die on your behalf, just because you are a human being and have those innate rights to life and liberty, even though you deny it.
In the event you still fail to understand, I reject, out of hand, your entire philosophy of life. It represents the worst evil man is capable of; that of denying an individual the right to choose how he lives his life.
You exist in a world of comfort provided by gallant men who fought to achieve the, 'civil' civilization and society we have....and you bite the hand that protects you.
Unreal.
Amicus
There is an old Tom Selleck movie, "Quigby Down Under" or something like that, where a woman goes insane because she inadvertently suffocated her infant son, trying to keep him quiet durning an Indian attack in America.
Only in the corrupted minds of the limp left would a woman abandon her child or people give up their individuality for the security of conformity.
You have no understanding of homo sapiens at all, nada, none; and false, insipid dreams of peace through appeasement.
To be kind, I suppose, you, like many others, are a product of the education system of the last half century, and not really responsible for what you believe, since you accepted what was offered as 'faith' just like all the religions in the world, without ever engaging your mind.
But ignorance of reality will not protect you when they come to take you away. It will be those like myself, who value individual choice and freedom in opposition to the will of the majority, that will fight and die on your behalf, just because you are a human being and have those innate rights to life and liberty, even though you deny it.
In the event you still fail to understand, I reject, out of hand, your entire philosophy of life. It represents the worst evil man is capable of; that of denying an individual the right to choose how he lives his life.
You exist in a world of comfort provided by gallant men who fought to achieve the, 'civil' civilization and society we have....and you bite the hand that protects you.
Unreal.
Amicus
Liar
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You're completely, utterly and spectacularly missing the point.
Ok, so let's assume the Barbarians ARE about to be at the gates. Most people don't realise it. You want to warn people, convince them that yes, their way of life and their liberty is under assault, so they join you in resistance.
So what do you do? Burst into the room and yell "YOU ARE ALL A BUNCH OF PUKE-ASS MORONS! THE SKY IS FALLING! THE COMMIES ARE COMING TO RAPE YOU!!!"?
No. Why? Because it doesn't work. People will think "Wtf is up with the crazy person?" Nobody will take you seriously, and you will have achieved negative effect. People will be less likely to join you in your cause, worthy as it is.
I repeat: It...does...not...work.
Wrong. If you had read what I wrote and not in your usual style ascribed me an opinion in order to have something to attack, you would know that.
I'll do what works to bring about what's right. Sometimes that's civil discourse. Sometimes it's screaming the loudest. Sometimes it's full-out war.
Whatever works, that which does the job in the situation I'm in.
amicus
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Chuckles...so...it is my style you disagree with?
My 'style' made a comfortable living for me over a fifty year period, Liar, are you suggesting I change it now to suit your defintion of what is effective and civil?
Not suggesting that you function without a code of ethics or morals, but the cost/benefit ratio is something one does not apply to human life or values.
Were I on a speeding train and could see the rail was out ahead of the train, I would not whisper in a civil manner, I would Shout, STOP THE FUCKING TRAIN!"
You may judge me rude and uncivil; fine.
Thank me later.
Amicus
My 'style' made a comfortable living for me over a fifty year period, Liar, are you suggesting I change it now to suit your defintion of what is effective and civil?
Not suggesting that you function without a code of ethics or morals, but the cost/benefit ratio is something one does not apply to human life or values.
Were I on a speeding train and could see the rail was out ahead of the train, I would not whisper in a civil manner, I would Shout, STOP THE FUCKING TRAIN!"
You may judge me rude and uncivil; fine.
Thank me later.
Amicus
Zeb_Carter
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Putting your head in the sand and closing your ears will not make the problem go away but, I assume you already know that or is my assumption incorrect?
Liar
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Just an advice in al friendlyness. If you're actually serious about changing people's minds in a discourse media, like an Internet message board. Take it or leave it, it's all the same to me. Now you're just doing the equivalence of fisticuffs in a canoe. It ain't the place, man.
Bad analogy. A better one would be that you shout STOP THE FUCKING TRAIN, and when people ask why, you spit on them and call them whores. And the train keeps on going.
amicus
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The late Ayn Rand offered up an analogy in one of her works: that of a person with a rational mind, with full conversant abilities, locked in a cage with a mindless beast whose only intent was to kill you.
No negotiation is possible.
In your country or any occupied country in Europe, I would not have survived until the Allies came marching in and liberated most of Europe.
I suppose you may judge that my perception and style would have dictated a rather short life span for the ole Ami.
The 'mindless beast' I confront is Socialism, large or small 's' and all its' derivatives. You, and most, not just here, do not perceive, 'from each...to each', as an evil concept; I do.
I am not an unreasonable man, as I have stated before, politics is the art of compromise and I accept that and will have nothing to do with public office.
Had I wanted to teach, I would have squelched my, 'gag response', and sipped tea with the rest of the Liberals in the Faculty lounge.
There are ample scholarly texts available that document the philosophical and economic fundamentals that I live by; why be redundant?
That left me a life of speaking before the public through a micro-phone or behind a podium, and that is what I chose.
I retired some years back...the mind still sharp, so I think, but the body weak, I abused it mightily over the years.
This forum is a pass-time for me, a diversion, an entertainment, a means of reminding myself of the coming dark ages and that a lifetime of warning against it did very little to avert it.
I have not the least interest in educating anyone here; if one desires knowledge, one can obtain it as best as one may. Nor do I wish to make friends and create a 'social network', even of like minded individuals.
I am an atheist for I will not bow before any God, King or Tyrant, and I have no patience for fools who seek the comfort of a herd rather than realize the potential they have within them as individuals.
I have attempted, several times, to extend you the courtesy of understanding what occupation did to the various peoples of Europe. I can only imagine the soiled National Soul, like that of the Vichy French, and others who collaborated with the Nazi's. Nor can I imagine the degradation of those trapped behind the Iron Curtain for so many years, likewise with soiled souls, histories and lives.
I have said before and say again; I am fortunate to have been born and raised where I am, I doubt I would have survived otherwise.
Discovering the works of Ayn Rand at an early age, was not a discovery for me, it was an affirmation of life as it should, could and ought to be.
The intense hatred that most express concerning the works of Ms. Rand, confirm my suspicion that most simply do not have the courage to express the individuality within them and choose to settle for a secondhand life as a believer.
Perhaps it was Rand, perhaps someone else, but Religion and Socialism are equally evil; both require the sacrifice of the soul, a virtual 'rebirth', into a collective, be it Christian or Communist, as the price one pays.
The price is always too high to pay.
Amicus
No negotiation is possible.
In your country or any occupied country in Europe, I would not have survived until the Allies came marching in and liberated most of Europe.
I suppose you may judge that my perception and style would have dictated a rather short life span for the ole Ami.
The 'mindless beast' I confront is Socialism, large or small 's' and all its' derivatives. You, and most, not just here, do not perceive, 'from each...to each', as an evil concept; I do.
I am not an unreasonable man, as I have stated before, politics is the art of compromise and I accept that and will have nothing to do with public office.
Had I wanted to teach, I would have squelched my, 'gag response', and sipped tea with the rest of the Liberals in the Faculty lounge.
There are ample scholarly texts available that document the philosophical and economic fundamentals that I live by; why be redundant?
That left me a life of speaking before the public through a micro-phone or behind a podium, and that is what I chose.
I retired some years back...the mind still sharp, so I think, but the body weak, I abused it mightily over the years.
This forum is a pass-time for me, a diversion, an entertainment, a means of reminding myself of the coming dark ages and that a lifetime of warning against it did very little to avert it.
I have not the least interest in educating anyone here; if one desires knowledge, one can obtain it as best as one may. Nor do I wish to make friends and create a 'social network', even of like minded individuals.
I am an atheist for I will not bow before any God, King or Tyrant, and I have no patience for fools who seek the comfort of a herd rather than realize the potential they have within them as individuals.
I have attempted, several times, to extend you the courtesy of understanding what occupation did to the various peoples of Europe. I can only imagine the soiled National Soul, like that of the Vichy French, and others who collaborated with the Nazi's. Nor can I imagine the degradation of those trapped behind the Iron Curtain for so many years, likewise with soiled souls, histories and lives.
I have said before and say again; I am fortunate to have been born and raised where I am, I doubt I would have survived otherwise.
Discovering the works of Ayn Rand at an early age, was not a discovery for me, it was an affirmation of life as it should, could and ought to be.
The intense hatred that most express concerning the works of Ms. Rand, confirm my suspicion that most simply do not have the courage to express the individuality within them and choose to settle for a secondhand life as a believer.
Perhaps it was Rand, perhaps someone else, but Religion and Socialism are equally evil; both require the sacrifice of the soul, a virtual 'rebirth', into a collective, be it Christian or Communist, as the price one pays.
The price is always too high to pay.
Amicus
J
JAMESBJOHNSON
Guest
To the Usual Suspect 'civility' means you embrace her opinion, dont challenge it, and do not create a conflict by offering an alternative hypothesis. The Usual Suspect demands his plastic trophy for whatever and all crap he drools from his lips; terms & conditions subject to change without notice, no warranties expressed or implied.
That is, the precondition for any debate with a Usual Suspect is your stipulation that you bugger deaf, dumb, and blind boys, and George W. Bush is the Great Satan; once you stipulate the Usual Suspect then terminates the debate.
That is, the precondition for any debate with a Usual Suspect is your stipulation that you bugger deaf, dumb, and blind boys, and George W. Bush is the Great Satan; once you stipulate the Usual Suspect then terminates the debate.
Liar
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Your mistake, amucis, is that you confuse civility with compromise or weakness. It's anything but. It's just a choice of strategy. When it is what works best, use it. When it isn't, scream.
Not even in Nazi Germany would it have been a good idea to kick someone's door in and rub your genitals in their face before warning them about Hitler.
And therein lies your confusion. You are not behind a pulpet anymore. The old tactic is ineffectual.
Not even in Nazi Germany would it have been a good idea to kick someone's door in and rub your genitals in their face before warning them about Hitler.
amicus
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~~~
'Pulpet' is your word, not mine.
I rather observe that my old 'tactic' is as effectual if not more so, than any other on this forum. Is that perhaps what irritates you so much?
I have and continue to engage some of the best minds this forum has to offer and with an observable regularity since 2003. You may wish my methods were not successful, but they are, nonethless.
The population of Norway estimated in 2008, is about 4,644,547...just over four and a half million. The entire population is only about half of New York City.
Not that that is particularly pertinent to our discussion, but the population of the US is estimated at about 320 million, it is not unreasonable to suggest the difference in size, in this matter
)), is relevant.Since World War Two, the world, under the protective Nuclear Umbrella, has basically remained stable, with the US and other Allied Nations acting to maintain the peace from expanding into another world conflict.
I do not expect a nation the size of Norway to be more than an ancillary to the larger States that are influential in world affairs. I extrapolate that to the individual and his perceptions of his nation and the world in general.
Were we to magically exchange places in the world, you might find yourself taking on my role.
Amusing thought, eh?
Ami
colddiesel
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~~~
The population of Norway estimated in 2008, is about 4,644,547...just over four and a half million. The entire population is only about half of New York City.
I do not expect a nation the size of Norway to be more than an ancillary to the larger States that are influential in world affairs. I extrapolate that to the individual and his perceptions of his nation and the world in general.
Amusing thought, eh?
Ami
The Museum of the D day landings at Arramanches (That is not quite the right name) in Normandy records the number and origin of the troops in the early landings. There were about 60000 each from UK and USA the next largest was from Canada followed by 18000 each from Poland and Norway, both slightly greater than the number from France.
So the USA put about 3 times as many men on the beaches as the Norwegians despite having a population 75 times greater. Every one of those Norwegians was a volunteer who had to escape from Norway across the North sea to even be there.
Don't disparage these latter day Vikings and then claim to be a historian.These guys fought for their own freedom and then fought for that of their neighbors. And you think you can sit in your cosy little corner and pontificate to the rest of us about freedom!
You were born Amicus with a good brain, but you have abused it a damn sight more than your body to become what you are today, a profoundly ignorant man, a profoundly narrow minded man, a stupid ranting bore but above all a fearful frightened completely self absorbed little man.
Rage on Amicus but do not expect anyone with a fraction of common sense to take the slightest notice.
J
JAMESBJOHNSON
Guest
Amazing COLD-DIESEL selects one piss-ant beach out of many to represent the entire Normandy invasion. This is so he can hand-out plastic trophies to the others who made cameo appearances at the ball.
During the American Civil War virtually every white adult male in Florida served in the military. With a white population of about 75,000 Florida furnished 11 infantry regiments, 2 cavalry regiments, and sundry artillery batteries, etc.
Shit-paper like Norway could have done much more than hold the coats and horses for the others.
During the American Civil War virtually every white adult male in Florida served in the military. With a white population of about 75,000 Florida furnished 11 infantry regiments, 2 cavalry regiments, and sundry artillery batteries, etc.
Shit-paper like Norway could have done much more than hold the coats and horses for the others.
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Pure
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the funny thing
amicus lost civil rights for 8 years, including against arbitrary arrest, being shipped out of the US to a 'black' site, etc.
not a peep. indeed, cheerleading for 'state security.'
now the thought of some poor people getting health insurance, paid for with taxpayer assistance, if needed, has him likening himself to Patrick Henry.
AND calling for armed revolution.
confronted (in his mind) with the "beast", he's reaching for his gun.
funny, back in the 50s and 60s, those calling for armed revolution were said to be treasonous [by amicus!], and the FBI went after them.
==
ami Y'know, Liar, et al, as I pursue history over a lifetime, I discover that few ever wish to admit the Barbarians are about to be at the gates before they actually are at the gates and then, guess what...it is too late.
Somewhere in our founding documents there is the sentiment that men are loathe to change, to give up comfort and safety, to seek engagement and resolve a threatening stituation. I could search and offer it up, but if you have an interest, you will seek it out yourself, if only to affirm my stipulation.
And I, as were the Colonist's way back when, did in fact present a 'civil' defense of their liberties before resigning themselves to action to defend their rights:
==
The late Ayn Rand offered up an analogy in one of her works: that of a person with a rational mind, with full conversant abilities, locked in a cage with a mindless beast whose only intent was to kill you.
No negotiation is possible.
In your country or any occupied country in Europe, I would not have survived until the Allies came marching in and liberated most of Europe.
I suppose you may judge that my perception and style would have dictated a rather short life span for the ole Ami.
The 'mindless beast' I confront is Socialism, large or small 's' and all its' derivatives. You, and most, not just here, do not perceive, 'from each...to each', as an evil concept; I do.
I am not an unreasonable man, as I have stated before, politics is the art of compromise and I accept that and will have nothing to do with public office.
Had I wanted to teach, I would have squelched my, 'gag response', and sipped tea with the rest of the Liberals in the Faculty lounge.
amicus lost civil rights for 8 years, including against arbitrary arrest, being shipped out of the US to a 'black' site, etc.
not a peep. indeed, cheerleading for 'state security.'
now the thought of some poor people getting health insurance, paid for with taxpayer assistance, if needed, has him likening himself to Patrick Henry.
AND calling for armed revolution.
confronted (in his mind) with the "beast", he's reaching for his gun.
funny, back in the 50s and 60s, those calling for armed revolution were said to be treasonous [by amicus!], and the FBI went after them.
==
ami Y'know, Liar, et al, as I pursue history over a lifetime, I discover that few ever wish to admit the Barbarians are about to be at the gates before they actually are at the gates and then, guess what...it is too late.
Somewhere in our founding documents there is the sentiment that men are loathe to change, to give up comfort and safety, to seek engagement and resolve a threatening stituation. I could search and offer it up, but if you have an interest, you will seek it out yourself, if only to affirm my stipulation.
And I, as were the Colonist's way back when, did in fact present a 'civil' defense of their liberties before resigning themselves to action to defend their rights:
==
The late Ayn Rand offered up an analogy in one of her works: that of a person with a rational mind, with full conversant abilities, locked in a cage with a mindless beast whose only intent was to kill you.
No negotiation is possible.
In your country or any occupied country in Europe, I would not have survived until the Allies came marching in and liberated most of Europe.
I suppose you may judge that my perception and style would have dictated a rather short life span for the ole Ami.
The 'mindless beast' I confront is Socialism, large or small 's' and all its' derivatives. You, and most, not just here, do not perceive, 'from each...to each', as an evil concept; I do.
I am not an unreasonable man, as I have stated before, politics is the art of compromise and I accept that and will have nothing to do with public office.
Had I wanted to teach, I would have squelched my, 'gag response', and sipped tea with the rest of the Liberals in the Faculty lounge.
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amicus
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ColdDiesel...even though you are insulting and crude, I will demonstrate how one might be otherwise.
Polish participation in WW2, after their country was overrun, is a sad and tragic chapter in the war effort as Allied Leaders sold them out in a conference dividing up Europe and allowing the Soviets to occupy their homeland.
There was a goodly number who fought with the Allies from all the occupied European Nations, I would like to think I would have been one of those Patriots, fighting to regain the sovreignty of their homeland.
Following the war and the onset of the Cold War, many nations became 'pawns' in the giant struggle between the Soviet Union and the United States, in Eastern Europe and in Asia. The filth of International Communism still colors relationships around the world and still contaminates nations like Korea, Vietnam and the Malay Penisula, not to speak of Caribbean nations, and those in Central and South America.
There are many tragic stories of oppressed peoples still suffering under the aftermath of Nazism and Communism. Had it not been for the United States providing a military presence in all corners of the globe, many might still be under the 'boot' of tyranny in one form or another.
The Israeli Prime Minister is addressing the United Nations at this moment and I am going to give it my attention.
Amicus
Polish participation in WW2, after their country was overrun, is a sad and tragic chapter in the war effort as Allied Leaders sold them out in a conference dividing up Europe and allowing the Soviets to occupy their homeland.
There was a goodly number who fought with the Allies from all the occupied European Nations, I would like to think I would have been one of those Patriots, fighting to regain the sovreignty of their homeland.
Following the war and the onset of the Cold War, many nations became 'pawns' in the giant struggle between the Soviet Union and the United States, in Eastern Europe and in Asia. The filth of International Communism still colors relationships around the world and still contaminates nations like Korea, Vietnam and the Malay Penisula, not to speak of Caribbean nations, and those in Central and South America.
There are many tragic stories of oppressed peoples still suffering under the aftermath of Nazism and Communism. Had it not been for the United States providing a military presence in all corners of the globe, many might still be under the 'boot' of tyranny in one form or another.
The Israeli Prime Minister is addressing the United Nations at this moment and I am going to give it my attention.
Amicus
Austin8
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I understand, but obviously you don't
amicus
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Southern Comfort, Southern Hospitality, idioms in American society, even outside the South.
Now that which is not civil, is Hanging a Census Taker in Kentucky and writing FED! on his chest.
Is something stirring in the South?
Heh
Oh, by the way, had this thought: I can't remember when last I was 'uncivil' in answering or creating a thread...you might look up some years old thingy, but even then you will discover the incivility was in retaliation or response, as it is not my normative state of mind.
Of course, that is never what is meant when addressing my posts as not civil; it is something entirely different.
Abortion is 1st Degree, Premeditated Murder and should be prosecuted as a Capital crime.
Homosexuality is a psychological disorder and should be treated as such.
Women are weaker than men.
Women should tend their children, not daycare centers and babysitters or grandparents.
Socialism is inherently evil.
Those are just a few of the reasons my posts are viewed as uncivil.
There is no need to discuss, debate or argue over any of the above; they are self evident, axiomatic premises by which most of civilized America lives by.
Just because you are unable to deal with these positions intellectually, the progressive left considers themselves unassailable in their faith in the opposite position of all of the above.
I am so uncivil as to disagree. Imagine that!
AmicusVeritas (Friend of Truth) in the Latin...
Now that which is not civil, is Hanging a Census Taker in Kentucky and writing FED! on his chest.
Is something stirring in the South?
Heh
Oh, by the way, had this thought: I can't remember when last I was 'uncivil' in answering or creating a thread...you might look up some years old thingy, but even then you will discover the incivility was in retaliation or response, as it is not my normative state of mind.
Of course, that is never what is meant when addressing my posts as not civil; it is something entirely different.
Abortion is 1st Degree, Premeditated Murder and should be prosecuted as a Capital crime.
Homosexuality is a psychological disorder and should be treated as such.
Women are weaker than men.
Women should tend their children, not daycare centers and babysitters or grandparents.
Socialism is inherently evil.
Those are just a few of the reasons my posts are viewed as uncivil.
There is no need to discuss, debate or argue over any of the above; they are self evident, axiomatic premises by which most of civilized America lives by.
Just because you are unable to deal with these positions intellectually, the progressive left considers themselves unassailable in their faith in the opposite position of all of the above.
I am so uncivil as to disagree. Imagine that!
AmicusVeritas (Friend of Truth) in the Latin...
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What ... not again
Do you specialize in logical fallacies or are you simply confused by what Amicus said?[/FONT]
Loring
Do you specialize in logical fallacies or are you simply confused by what Amicus said?[/FONT]
Loring
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