What is a poem?
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twelveoone
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no, you have a story
butters
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perhaps... an author of stories tells you what you've heard, what to think, believe, see, takes you where they intend you to be, a mapping out of things - the narrative poem kind of follows this?
but with most poetry i've read there are signposts and diverging paths; the poet wants you to end up in the right place but allows you to find your own route, even if it means spending time in the wilderness . . . poetry has far more emotional impact than the majority of stories, despite its condensed form.
but with most poetry i've read there are signposts and diverging paths; the poet wants you to end up in the right place but allows you to find your own route, even if it means spending time in the wilderness . . . poetry has far more emotional impact than the majority of stories, despite its condensed form.
twelveoone
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i.e. there is always something below the surface, it some cases it is what drives the surface
In Mutt's latest there probably four different things driving it. As a "story' it is not, tso's banzai tree is not a "story", both allow the reader to create one, again very similar to what Senna has always said but without the bullshit numbers.
twelveoone
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BTW, fair warning, so it doesn't come as a surprise, I'm using this, you will be credited. It will be used as an intro to a dissection on something that is Not a "story". In a day or two.
bogusagain
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Surely we should dispose of any preconceived ideas of what a poem is? Well crafted poems can often be tedious, while punkish roughneck poems can be exciting. I remember The Poetry Society (UK one) being accused on several occasions of trying to kill off poetry by promoting preconceived ideas of what poetry is, namely poetry being the message as well as the medium and being intelligent, articulate, intellectual and correct. Which sort of makes one ask, what's wrong with that? Well, nothing if poets don't mind disappearing up their own semi-colon but sometimes to get an audience excited, you have to engage with the world. Though poetry has been likened to throwing a feather into a canyon and waiting for an echo. Maybe poetry should throw a bomb into the canyon.
Senna Jawa
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You're not talking about art. Instead, you're talking about PR. ...about business. ...about politics. ...about popularity for the sake of popularity.
Magnetron
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Be my guest.
Magnetron
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Ahhh ..... this explanation is a lot easier to digest. Thank you for that.
twelveoone
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no, he is also talking about Art...
being accused on several occasions of trying to kill off poetry by promoting preconceived ideas of what poetry is, namely poetry being the message as well as the medium and being intelligent, articulate, intellectual and correct. Which sort of makes one ask, what's wrong with that?...
Perhaps, the question would be better if it was asked:
Where is the poetry in a poem?
If you look for something in a poem and it isn't there, you are disappointed.
If you find it there and there and there.
you have found a vegetable on a machine
and you can say in the deepest, most innermost recesses of your soul
Are we not, kindred spirits kept alive by artificial means.
Senna at this time in history or in the near future, there are probably more machine generated poems than there ever where poets, and everyone claims to be a poet.
Perhaps, a dose of Ludditism is in order, eh, Bog?
bogusagain
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Art is business, always has been and always will be. The greatestr artists were the greatest businessmen.
butters
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except those who died penniless and other business men used their art to make money....
Senna Jawa
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bogusagain
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Like who?
You could probably name such artists on one hand. People often cite van Gogh but van Gogh was an art insider and came from an affluent family. He was an obnoxious individual who thought his brother had a duty to keep him. If he hadn't died, whether through suicide or murder, he would have died rich and famous. Then there is Vermeer, who we know little about but appeared to be sussessfully locally in Delft and Den Haag. However, he seemed to rely on his affluent wife quite a lot. His economic struggles actually go up and down with the economy and the economic struggles of his local butcher, tailor and candlestick maker. Rembrandt died poor because he went bankrupt, a fate that can often befall a business when you change you product line without attracting new clients and customers.
Artists who tend to examine their own navel fluff tend to get nowhere.
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bogusagain
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No I'm not. Very very few people who are not famous and successful in their own life time become successful after death because of the quality of their work. A person's success in the arts largely depends on an artist/writer's family and social connections or their business acumen and their ability to network and promote themselves. Having done a lot of studying art, it is quite clear one can dig up some wonderful art which never got widely appreciated because of the artist's inability to promote themselves and do business in their own life time.
butters
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hi, bogus
i know jack about the art world, it's true - only know if i like a picture when i look at it. i suppose i was running with that old, romanticised notion of the starving artists in their parisian garettes and not bothering to take time to think.
art, though, in all its forms, are those that garner the most rewards financially always necessarily the same as those who create the best art? you can write the finest poetry, paint the finest paintings, but without promotion/exposure still be as nothing in the fame game. it's true i don't understand about paint much at all - but when i walk around a gallery, a lot of it leaves me cold - including some of the esteemed classics.
twelveoone
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twelveoone
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and you are overlooking the key overlaps
manipulation and motive
neither sells anything that can be remotely considered as tangible, they sell dreams
a con artist may be the more honest of the two as he is prone to less self delusion, possibly, even then there are exceptions
twelveoone
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Magetron, I gave you what I thought qualifies. In the level three thread, you will see I used your quote. Simple words, simple message, with an immense amount of operations right below the surface as I see it. Despite the fact that Mutt has made the same reference to 'story' as you did, it is not much of a 'story', more a poem.
What makes it a 'poem' in my opinion are operations below the surface text in a consistent pattern. He has those, he has also run an interference pattern though it.
You can accept what I just said as total bullshit if you want. But a direct question here, what are your thoughts on Mutt's poem?
Magnetron
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To me, it is a story - that of someone feeling isolated and subsequently as though his/her actions have little impact on the outside world, so why bother making any effort?
Traditional stories tend to have beginnings and endings in which the in between is usually comprised of conflicts between opposing forces and events happening which culminate in changes and resolutions - a shift in overall reality.
A story about nothing changing is best told with the begining and ending remaining the same. This one starts out with I and ends with I and throughout there is just existence from start to finish in the form of coping with the absence of "her". No shift. Reality stays the same.
Futher details about "her" or of anything else independent of I would really defeat the story.
The repetative I's also set the reader up for a sense of isolation.
It flows without any interruption in the momentum throughout, almost to the point of monotony:
which reinforces the entire story.
I would rate it 5 ..... which I just did.
Wether all this was by design or unconscious or a mixture of both, it remains to be seen. I would have to read more of Mutt's work to get a better sense of that or he could always explain this himself.
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bogusagain
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One shouldn't get sentimental about these guys, they were hard nosed business people. Well, van Gogh wasn't, he relied on his brother. It was then his sister in law's business and PR acumen which we have to thank for us knowing his name and art. That said, people seem to think van Gogh was an art outsider, he wasn't, he was a 100% insider who understood the fashions and styles of his day.
Angeline
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Five more posts and we make you write your own poem.
Also, I know what you mean. I know poetry when I see it, too. Sometimes the simplest most succinct answer is the best one.
Adre
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Five more posts and we make you write your own poem.
Also, I know what you mean. I know poetry when I see it, too. Sometimes the simplest most succinct answer is the best one.
I'm a shite poet but a pretty okay limericker, so I'll have to limit my posts.
