Combatting Denial.

Okay, So I have a burning question that maybe some of the brilliant minds of LIT can help me tackle. Denial, and how to deal with it. More specifically, denial in relationships. I'm pretty good at figuring out people and how to work around their issues, but this is one issue that has me stumped, and people ask me about it quite often. How do you deal with a close friend or significant other when they absolutely deny the writing on the wall? They deny how they feel about you? Deny saying something, when they just said it five minutes before, and you have a recording of it? lol.

I am or was involved with someone who was in deep denial about their feelings, I won't go into detail right now, ((though its a whopper of a story)) but for over a year its been a struggle to figure out. Then there is my mom, who asked me "How do you deal with this?" Shes involved with someone who literally denies everything. "No, I didn't call you," despite call logs, "No I didn't say/do that." despite other evidence. " and they say it with such conviction, they might actually believe it to their very core. How do you fight against that? Now I know her S/O has some deep emotional problems, bad childhood, Vietnam related PTSD, a whole host of other issues, and I think the person I was around has some serious emotional issues going on as well.

Everyone I've asked this question, has said the same, I wish I could tell you, because I'd like to know too. Maybe there is no way to combat it, if a person wants to believe something, maybe that's just it? The only thing I've ever been able to do is just drop the issue, and let them prattle on about their view of reality, and eventually they run out of steam and things return to normal. Until the last exchange, and it was an epic rage fueled denial melt down that still has my mind blown.

So really, does anyone know how you get anywhere with someone who denies their actions, denies the facts and is not wrong?

You cannot make someone see things that they are not ready or are unwilling to see. No amount of joking, cajoling, finger pointing, or discussion is going to change that. Only when they are open to seeing their reality can you offer assistance of any value.

If you value your sanity, then it is important to recognize those who are ready for help, as opposed to those who are not, and allocate your time and energy accordingly.

One thing that ALL people do, particularly those in denial, is to try to pull you into their drama, they feed off of you, which is why it is important to recognize them and how detrimental they can be. I'm not saying you should ostracize them, however, you should be very careful how you interact.

Yes, anger can be a sign of denial, and it can be particularly prickly when you don't buy into their drama, it is how they manipulate the situation and those around them.

Sounds more like a case of compulsive lying

Just call me Cleopatra, the queen of denial
(That was a country song)

Yep I agree with jp sounds like a compulsive liar, I dated one once.
Great sex but she drove me insane.

You can't make them change. Hopefully you've confronted these people and told them your feelings. You'll have to decide how much denial/crazy/lies/whatever it is you are willing to put up with.

Several years ago I made a decision to end relationships that come with too much math. I don't wanna spend my time figgering folks out when they make no sense. This includes old friends, relatives, and my children. My life is serene and pleasant without all the puzzles.

Simply ruling anyone with serious denial issues as a compulsive liar is a gross over simplification of the issue. The two cases I cited are different though, my moms case? The man is a serious narcissist jackass and its about him being right period, no matter what, cite whatever emotional issues he has, but thats how he is.. Which is funny, since my mom is almost as bad as he is, yet she complains.. Its kind of like.. sweet justice on that front!

My situation? I've read that some think denial is a psychological defense mechanism that protects us from things we're not ready to cope with, feelings, loss, whatever. And honestly? That concept fits like a glass slipper. She's swayed back and forth from flirting and being open about having something more with me, to out right denying it. She even admitted once that maybe she was running from me, amongst other things. Our problem is, shes sort of a pillar of the community, and about 15 years older then me, in a small town, with judgmental parents who still matter a whole lot.

Every thing thats been said/done/happened suggests shes massively torn over her feelings. Shes tried to push me away twice, using the tactic ive seen her use on her ex husband and a boyfriend, try to provoke them so they';re the villain, but I know her game, I dont play it, and it makes it worse. The last exchange we had was honestly sad, im not sure what happened, but she was almost hysterical, and denied any feelings, said it was all on me, and when I said "okay, thats fine, im ok with that." It pissed her off more, so she started attacking me personally, didnt bite, got even more angy.. lol she said she wasnt going to argue about it, for 5 minutes, repeated that it was all on me a dozen times, hung up, called back and did the same damn thing for another ten minutes, but with personal attacks.

I wish I was delusional, I wish she was right, it'd be much more understandable. But I can't ignore whats been said/done. But even if she had a valid reason to protect herself emotionally, I didn't deserve it and if she realizes what shes done, she can try to fix it. Its sad, we were damn close, and I know through mutual friends that shes more stressed then ever, i worry that something will happen to her, because I know her life is about to get even more stressful. But I'm out of options. ANYWAY.

My other problem? Complex people fascinate me, they're like a puzzle, and shes been a puzzling one.. One ive become able to predict very well, but not one thats easily solved. And like I said, i might need to understand these things down the road someday. Thanks for the input so far, its made for an interesting read.

Neither you nor your mom should be wasting your time or energy on people like this. Why do it? You're in love? Did it ever occur to you that you could fall in love with someone who isn't like this? Seriously, you both need to get rid of the losers and make your lives not only simpler but better too. By dating people like this you deserve what you get. You have a choice to choose better and if you settle for crap like this then that is your fault, not theirs. I also agree with the poster who said that if there is too much math in the relationship then you should move on.

Neither you nor your mom should be wasting your time or energy on people like this. Why do it? You're in love? Did it ever occur to you that you could fall in love with someone who isn't like this? Seriously, you both need to get rid of the losers and make your lives not only simpler but better too. By dating people like this you deserve what you get. You have a choice to choose better and if you settle for crap like this then that is your fault, not theirs. I also agree with the poster who said that if there is too much math in the relationship then you should move on.

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My mother is a glutton for punishment, I told her to accept him for the basket case he is or move on. She's done neither unfortunately. So that is basically the advice I've given her. But I think some of you are missing the point.

As far as my situation? Its done, outside of some miraculous turn of event, its done. Because I'm not going to suck up, and shes built such a wall of denial around herself, nothing will change until she realizes what shes done. So its unlikely. Its more of an academic point, for the sake of conversation, the question is, is there any actual way to deal with people in denial?

And honestly, there are going to be situations with people who are in denial, that you cannot walk away from. Oh, my daughter has a serious problem that she won't admit to.. So fuck her and be done with her? I don't think so.
A friend of mine has a father who's a denier, but totally casting him out of her life isn't an option yet. Not every situation is so easy.

In my situation, I'm well aware of the whole damn thing, a lack of self-awareness is not a problem I have. We never really crossed the relationship line, the potential was there, but we didn't. But we were damn good friends, close, and when you see or talk to someone almost every day for two years straight, you do tend to care about them, even if only friends.
The good generally outweighed the bad. But on the other hand, not having to be that emotional support like I was, has been a huge weight off my shoulders these last few weeks.

I guess my issue is, simply comprehending the power of denial, the exchange we had was just mind blowing, startling, so absolute.. It honestly reminded me of the times I've went through the path of a Tornado, it was hard to comprehend the absolute power that did it.

Then again, compared to the other women around here, she was light years ahead of them in stability lol. Now thats the truly sad part.

For what it's worth, I'd just keep this one at arms length. Denial or no she's clearly got some issues and your in danger of being sucked into it. It sounds to me like you'd want more than friendship. I've been in a similar situation with a girl. The lines were constantly blurred with her constantly embracing me and pushing me away. Confused and conflicting messages I just simply never knew where I stood. She had a quirky and addictive personality and I'd have given everything for her. I was in love, blinded from logic and common sense. I got sucked into her world and in the end all that love and desire for her turned to confusion, frustration then resentment and finally bitterness. I tried to be just friends with her but that just made things worse.

Basically I'm saying just be careful.

R_Hughes1905 said:

And honestly, there are going to be situations with people who are in denial, that you cannot walk away from. Oh, my daughter has a serious problem that she won't admit to.. So fuck her and be done with her? I don't think so.

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If it's a child you're responsible for, that's one thing. But with adults... you can't make somebody do what they're not willing to do, and in trying to support them you can actually end up enabling their problems by protecting them from the consequences of their own behaviour. If you hang on long enough, there's a good chance of getting sucked down with them.

One of the hardest decisions my partner and I had to make was evicting a family member who was unemployed, depressed, and making suicide threats. We were scared that eviction might push him to act on those threats - but we weren't mental health professionals, we had no way of getting him out of it when he refused to get professional help, and letting him stay in our spare room playing computer games for the next few decades didn't seem like a good outcome for anybody. I won't say that things are 100% better now, but they've certainly improved since we drew that line.

It doesn't have to be "walking away" altogether; if you're worried that somebody might need your support you can tell them "my door is always open, under these conditions" (e.g. "seeing a mental health professional who can confirm to us that you're working on your issues").

But it's a hard situation and no fun to be where you are - hope you can find a good way out of it.

jp_2012 said:

Sounds more like a case of compulsive lying

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This.

I'm not reading this as denial, but as lying.

Is she an alcoholic?
I ask because today the old man next door to a job we are doing had a fit that someone parked across the street from his driveway in a legal parking space. I said to my Democrat worker "He must be a Democrat, just because he can't drive anymore he wants everyone to change their behavior for him." He having been married to one and knowing a lot of alcoholics said no that what alcoholics want you to do.
Just a thought.

Bramblethorn said:

If it's a child you're responsible for, that's one thing. But with adults... you can't make somebody do what they're not willing to do, and in trying to support them you can actually end up enabling their problems by protecting them from the consequences of their own behaviour. If you hang on long enough, there's a good chance of getting sucked down with them.

One of the hardest decisions my partner and I had to make was evicting a family member who was unemployed, depressed, and making suicide threats. We were scared that eviction might push him to act on those threats - but we weren't mental health professionals, we had no way of getting him out of it when he refused to get professional help, and letting him stay in our spare room playing computer games for the next few decades didn't seem like a good outcome for anybody. I won't say that things are 100% better now, but they've certainly improved since we drew that line.

It doesn't have to be "walking away" altogether; if you're worried that somebody might need your support you can tell them "my door is always open, under these conditions" (e.g. "seeing a mental health professional who can confirm to us that you're working on your issues").

But it's a hard situation and no fun to be where you are - hope you can find a good way out of it.

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Once again Bramble's right on the money.

I have many issues, and denial was a huge part of it. Consequences for my actions were the only thing that got me to change, make me realize I was the problem, not everyone else. It took me many years and life changing circumstances for me to finally realize I was the problem. Stick to your guns and hopefully others in her life will to, and she may realize one day.

KrazyWhiteBoy said:

Once again Bramble's right on the money.

I have many issues, and denial was a huge part of it. Consequences for my actions were the only thing that got me to change, make me realize I was the problem, not everyone else. It took me many years and life changing circumstances for me to finally realize I was the problem. Stick to your guns and hopefully others in her life will to, and she may realize one day.

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This.

Also, OP, with all due respect, as I understand the position that you are in; however, a lack of personal boundaries comes from a lack of self love.

Doing the most loving thing toward yourself, in this case, creating personal boundaries, will only benefit you in attracting healthier people into your life in the future.