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punctuation: intrusion or guide?

Tsotha said:
Could you elaborate? Why not read him? Do you disagree with what he said, then?
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I was quoting and replying to KatieJones' post that said that if punctuation is used, it is used according to the rules of grammar. e.e. disdains rules, thus KatieJones would be displeased with his style according to her first 2 paragraphs.

I wasn't commenting on if I liked cummings' poetry or if anyone else should or shouldn't ... Are you not reading the quoted post along with the comment? I don't think I was unclear when you look at it all together.
 
champagne1982 said:
I was quoting and replying to KatieJones' post that said that if punctuation is used, it is used according to the rules of grammar. e.e. disdains rules, thus KatieJones would be displeased with his style. I wasn't commenting on if I liked cummings' poetry or if anyone else should or shouldn't ... Are you not reading the quoted post along with the comment? I don't think I was unclear when you look at it all together.
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Yes, I thought you might be recommending her not to read him, given her preference. Then again, I haven't read most of the poets discussed here, and it was just as likely that you were giving your opinion on the "poem as painting" thing, which I would have been interested in reading (if it were the case).
 
Tsotha said:
Yes, I thought you might be recommending her not to read him, given her preference. Then again, I haven't read most of the poets discussed here, and it was just as likely that you were giving your opinion on the "poem as painting" thing, which I would have been interested in reading (if it were the case).
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I see. Well, I do feel that it's my responsibility to put the poem out there as I want people to see it and read it. If they follow my recommendations then they're twice as likely to understand what my message (if any) is. I've done my work in writing the piece (the percentage of work is always up for discussion here) and once I publish it I give it to my readers. Now, the audience can decide how much work they want to contribute.

The choice is to read the poem as it is written and glean my view from how it sounds to them in that style OR they can change the way it's read and gain a different perspective from how it sounds at that time. When the reader chooses to read it with pauses in different spots, or with a different inflection and accent on words than what I intended with my sign posts (be they breaks, a caesura, enjambment, or punctuation) then they are doing much of the work themselves. That's why poetry is wonderful. Interpretation is everything.
 
champagne1982 said:
I was quoting and replying to KatieJones' post that said that if punctuation is used, it is used according to the rules of grammar. e.e. disdains rules, thus KatieJones would be displeased with his style according to her first 2 paragraphs.

I wasn't commenting on if I liked cummings' poetry or if anyone else should or shouldn't ... Are you not reading the quoted post along with the comment? I don't think I was unclear when you look at it all together.
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I have read him and he is right. A poet is in charge of what a poem looks like just as a reader is completely in charge of their reaction to how the poet made the poem look.

My reaction to half-using punctuation is that it is personally distracting. If I am distracted when reading a poem then it will lose its power to communicate with me.
It's just a personal statement of preference. If poets want to use commas and periods however they wish to because they like how it looks then no one is stopping them.
 
KatieJones said:
I have read him and he is right. A poet is in charge of what a poem looks like just as a reader is completely in charge of their reaction to how the poet made the poem look.

My reaction to half-using punctuation is that it is personally distracting. If I am distracted when reading a poem then it will lose its power to communicate with me.
It's just a personal statement of preference. If poets want to use commas and periods however they wish to because they like how it looks then no one is stopping them.
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I wasn't really in conflict with your thoughts on that. I pretty much wanted to keep the discussion going. Punctuation as a poetic device works for both visual and spoken/written word poems. :) Many people tend to use punctuation incorrectly as far as grammar goes, but if the reader interprets them much as you would musical scores, ie. A period is a half rest, the strophe break a whole rest, and so on, I think it opens up the metrics of a poem to more than just syllables and stresses.

Partial punctuation is hard to interpret and I can never be certain, either if the poet is doing this intentionally or if the individual just doesn't know any better. Interesting view.
 
champagne1982 said:
I wasn't really in conflict with your thoughts on that. I pretty much wanted to keep the discussion going. Punctuation as a poetic device works for both visual and spoken/written word poems. :) Many people tend to use punctuation incorrectly as far as grammar goes, but if the reader interprets them much as you would musical scores, ie. A period is a half rest, the strophe break a whole rest, and so on, I think it opens up the metrics of a poem to more than just syllables and stresses.

Partial punctuation is hard to interpret and I can never be certain, either if the poet is doing this intentionally or if the individual just doesn't know any better. Interesting view.
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That's what I figured :) but I didn't want anyone to think I was telling them how to write.

Your uncertainty regarding partial punctuation is exactly what happens to me as well and if that is what I am thinking then I am definitely not thinking about the meaning behind the poem. :)
 
champagne1982 said:
I see. Well, I do feel that it's my responsibility to put the poem out there as I want people to see it and read it. If they follow my recommendations then they're twice as likely to understand what my message (if any) is. I've done my work in writing the piece (the percentage of work is always up for discussion here) and once I publish it I give it to my readers. Now, the audience can decide how much work they want to contribute.

The choice is to read the poem as it is written and glean my view from how it sounds to them in that style OR they can change the way it's read and gain a different perspective from how it sounds at that time. When the reader chooses to read it with pauses in different spots, or with a different inflection and accent on words than what I intended with my sign posts (be they breaks, a caesura, enjambment, or punctuation) then they are doing much of the work themselves. That's why poetry is wonderful. Interpretation is everything.
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What you're describing is pretty much what I hoped to accomplish with mine, except in my case I grew attached to a bunch of impractical sign posts that only made any sense to me.

It seems the divide is between those who want the reader to flow freely and those who want to provide some kind of blueprint for how a poem should be read.
 
I do prefer not to be out of puff at the end of a poem from rattling through it after the Author hasn't bothered to indicate any pauses with punctuation. If you want it to be read the way you wrote it and hear it, then punctuate it accordingly!
 
Given my difficulty, I seldom read poems out loud. So, while I understand concerns like Annie's, above, I'm more interested in using punctuation to provide different meanings than in punctuating properly, even if the result is it reads awkward.
 
Tsotha said:
only a few words
to play with my hands while bound
full of regrets regret the poor choices made
the line breaks the commas and periods
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only a few words to play with
my hands, while bound,
full of regrets regret the poor choices made:
the line breaks, the commas and periods.

:rolleyes:
 
Tsotha said:
Given my difficulty, I seldom read poems out loud. So, while I understand concerns like Annie's, above, I'm more interested in using punctuation to provide different meanings than in punctuating properly, even if the result is it reads awkward.
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Isn't reading them in your head the same? I still 'hear' them in my mind!
 
Importing from another thread
.
Trixareforkids said:
Mum's the word
the word that I heard
sweeter than any other
that I can think to say
for all of mine are bitter
brine for the regrets that
I can't make palatable
no matter how many times
I taste them


Hmm, think I need a drink
something with some cheer
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Now there you see the lack of punctuation makes me wonder is that meant to be 'mine are bitter brine' or 'mine are bitter' because without a comma you have made the end of a line a pausing place.
 
Ha, thanks for moving it UYS, I was just in the process of doing that and saw you already had. :D

The line break was an intentional breaking of two parts of the thought. Were I to punctuate it I would it I would do so by capitalizing Brine.
 
Trixareforkids said:
Ha, thanks for moving it UYS, I was just in the process of doing that and saw you already had. :D

The line break was an intentional breaking of two parts of the thought. Were I to punctuate it I would it I would do so by capitalizing Brine.
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Pardon?
 
UnderYourSpell said:
Pardon?
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Yikes, I really suck at explaining don't I, lol.

Two separate but connected thoughts, first thought ends with the word bitter, but they blend from one into the other and the two words (bitter/brine) sound good together, thus the lack of punctuation, was how my thought process went

Keeping bitter words about regrets to one's self
and
Speaking about regrets just perpetuates them, makes you think about them more, and adds nothing to the 'flavor' of your life now
 
Trixareforkids said:
Yikes, I really suck at explaining don't I, lol.

Two separate but connected thoughts, first thought ends with the word bitter, but they blend from one into the other and the two words (bitter/brine) sound good together, thus the lack of punctuation, was how my thought process went

Keeping bitter words about regrets to one's self
and
Speaking about regrets just perpetuates them, makes you think about them more, and adds nothing to the 'flavor' of your life now
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I think it was all the 'would its' that threw me :)
 
UnderYourSpell said:
Isn't reading them in your head the same? I still 'hear' them in my mind!
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Hm. I can hear in my mind, but for me it isn't the same as reading out loud. It doesn't run into problems like running out of breath. It's also more agile, it doesn't *need* to have a voice, it can go back and forth over text faster.
 
Tsotha said:
In my opinion, poetry is a superset of prose. Writing a poem, you're concerned with the presentation of words themselves, while in prose, you're concerned with presentation in a larger scale, both the content and its delivery. The granularity is different. It doesn't mean a poem cannot tell a story, or that it cannot lean onto an emotional / polemic subject as a crutch to elicit emotion. Nor does it mean that prose cannot rely on poetic tools to enhance the presentation / delivery of content. In my mind, there isn't a line separating the two, rather it's a fuzzy thing.

When you write a poem, you (hopefully) have an idea of what it is you want to achieve. Each choice (what word to use, whether to use punctuation, where to break lines, whether to rhyme, etc.) should be made to further your chosen objective. Do I want the reader to speed through this sentence? Do I want him to stop at a specific word? Do I want him to jump from line to line frenetically? Do I want one very long, never ending line? Why?

Any response that says: "yes, you should always/never use punctuation" makes no sense to me. It's like taking an entire array of tools and throwing them in the garbage.

It really doesn't matter, though. Whatever your intention, most likely no one will understand. There is a rule that if three "better poets" think you're wrong, you are both wrong and an idiot (twelveoone, 2014). So you might as well write totally randomly, it makes no difference.
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oversimplification, probably taken out of certain context
you better have a goddamn good reason to override the objections, and I specifically emphasize that the three must be somewhat distinct
 
twelveoone said:
As applied here, i.e. My rule of three
If someone tells you, something is a bad idea, listen
If two people tell you, and you persist without a reason, something is suspect in your reasoning ability.
If the magic number of three is reached and you persist in making light of the suggestions:
You're a fucking idiot!!! Why are you here?
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(bold markup by me)

Sometimes the reason to persist with something like crazy punctuation is simply "I like it". The person writing sees something special in placing that extra comma, or not using it at all. No one else sees it (either it doesn't exist, or people are coming to read with preconceptions).
 
Tsotha said:
(bold markup by me)

Sometimes the reason to persist with something like crazy punctuation is simply "I like it". The person writing sees something special in placing that extra comma, or not using it at all. No one else sees it (either it doesn't exist, or people are coming to read with preconceptions).
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Off topic.
But I would add a bold markup to the last line, also.
In this case he had stated the reason, perhaps underlining also may be in order.
 
twelveoone said:
Off topic.
But I would add a bold markup to the last line, also.
In this case he had stated the reason, perhaps underlining also may be in order.
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Sometimes the person is doing something that makes sense inside her head. However, she doesn't see that her head is part of the process, and that the poem itself isn't conveying (to others) that magic thing she sees in the poem.

Sometimes it's a quest to find a way to present to others that thing. Sometimes, there is no way to convey it. No amount of playing with line breaks and commas will make others read the poem exactly as you want. Close to the target? Ok, maybe. But it doesn't account for each person's brain, ticks, brain farts, personal difficulties upon reaching certain words, or getting confused with the lack of a comma (that she felt was necessary), etc. Which is why I mostly don't understand metre.

A bold markup to the last line, eh? Cool.
 
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UnderYourSpell said:
Isn't reading them in your head the same? I still 'hear' them in my mind!
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In whose voice?

Who's is whose?
Why it's dem dere folk
& fuckem if they can't take a joke < punc need?, ! does what?, and this ??!!??! does squat
& i guess i just misspoke
Now who's dem dere folk
dats fixed on fixin shit
when 'tain't nar broke*

The intent of any of this crap is to serve the purpose of the poem. The poem is the priority. Not the authour, not the audience. For the writer and the reader to have any value they must bend but not to submit to each other, and to the poem itself.

I'm with Tso.
*written to deliberately provoke bflaggst, but every one here should realize it is not a poem, it's a fucking joke, and rather limp at that. Of course I could have written it as a Limerick and it would have came off as high humour.
 
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