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Punctuation in Stories

sr71plt said:
But then the "off the rails" characterization of this thread seems more than a bit overblown to me. This certainly wasn't in the mold of the GB.
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This isn't the GB, and I think the original question was answered long ago.
 
NotWise said:
This isn't the GB, and I think the original question was answered long ago.
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Yes. I answered it, after making the effort of seeing what the actual issue was. And I answered the OP's followup questions too. What's your point? Just want to keep the yammering going?
 
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sr71plt said:
...What publishers have shied away from, especially in fiction, is using superscripting for ordinal numbers. That requires extra typesetting work and they just don't use it in nonscientific text anymore...
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Indeed, and rightly so. I happened to come across one in a magazine just the other evening. As with most magazines, the body text type size is borderline comfortable for me and characters in superscript are unreadable. My rheumy eyes had great difficulty working out what a spare double-quote was doing there.

To be fair to the publisher, the situation arose in a quotation and was presumably there in the original. Which raises the question, if you're quoting from an older work that uses what is now regarded as non-standard punctuation, etc, should you leave it as it is and risk confusing the reader or change it and risk being accused of being untrue to the original?
 
Something that bothers me.
Is the site a place for published authors to promote their works?
Or,
Is this site a place for people to write their own erotica, how they wish?
You know geography changes punctuation in many cases.
I'm not trying to be tetchy or insolent. I'm genuinely interested, and trying to learn.
 
Exescort said:
Is the site a place for published authors to promote their works?
Or,
Is this site a place for people to write their own erotica, how they wish?
You know geography changes punctuation in many cases.
I'm not trying to be tetchy or insolent. I'm genuinely interested, and trying to learn.
Click to expand...

Yes - there are writers here who publish elsewhere.

Yes - but not "how you wish". Fiction writing has basic rules - good punctuation is a fundamental thing to get basically right.

Yes - geography does cause differences but not so dramatically different as some people seem to think. Every language has basic conventions, and since English is (we assume) the predominant language here, writers should at least make an effort to punctuate consistent with their native English-speaking country. If you're American, punctuate in accordance with American conventions, if you are English, punctuate iaw English conventions, if you are Australian, etc....

But it doesn't mean, "make shit up because you don't know how to do it properly." Do it properly, according to your geographical conventions, but please, do it properly. Bad punctuation is bad punctuation wherever you are.
 
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That's what I thought, I think people thought I was being awkward with my earlier post.
I wasn't. I was trying to make a point, but some got a bit anal about it.
Thanks for taking the time to define that for me. It's much appreciated.
 
How do you turn off Auto-correct in Microsoft Word than?

So if I am clear on this (I can't remember who mentioned this), but you can have a period at the end of the sentence if the following sentence is an action right?

Also, personally, I am my own worst critic. I HATE making mistakes and even though I don't like having them pointed out to me, I never want to continuing making them. Grammar has always been one of my biggest hurdles when I was in school, but I am so glad I had teachers to help me with them because it improved my writing dramatically. So at the end of the day, I want to be able to not only read my works, but to be as grammatically correct as possible. It be a huge disservice to my teachers and professors if I didn't write well. Not to mention it makes it easier for my editor if I do my best to fix my own mistakes.

Also, I plan on keeping my editor because this was the first time in ages that my grammar has been called out. I'd feel extremely guilty if I got rid of him.
 
Green_Knight said:
To be fair to the publisher, the situation arose in a quotation and was presumably there in the original. Which raises the question, if you're quoting from an older work that uses what is now regarded as non-standard punctuation, etc, should you leave it as it is and risk confusing the reader or change it and risk being accused of being untrue to the original?
Click to expand...

Good question. I haven't encountered that yet, but I presume that for ordinals, they'd delete the superscripting as being just a book design issue but for spelling and punctuation they'd continue the long-held custom of leaving it as in the original and including clarifying ed notes, if necessary.
 
RubenR said:
The site is a place for people to write their own erotica, as they wish, as long as it meets the basic quality standards and isn't in conflict with the site's rules. Apparently, this story was good enough to pass those standards. However, some Anon. made comments on this story and the OP wanted to have the opinion from others about those comments. The OP asked for the opinion of others.
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I think a point for this thread (and for Exescort) that shouldn't be missed is that the original story cited here really wouldn't have passed the standards Laurel sets if the cited passages had been seen. She apparently didn't see the problem in this particular story. What was there was clearly a misuse of punctuation for quotes problem that is one of the issues that usually results in rejection. The quotation treatment just plainly was wrong. It wasn't an acceptable variant in any system. It was wrong. The dialogue slugs that should have been wedded to the dialogue were separated off into separate nonsentences. No English-language composition system supports this rendering. The comment by anonymous on the story was correct and it was a practice that both the author (and the editor the author claimed had been through the story) need to correct to avoid rejection here and in the greater publishing world.

But that was cleared up with the OP in good order and would have been just fine if Exescort hadn't jumped in with a "do anything you want" post. No, you don't just do anything you want here at Literotica and either get published by Literotica or are good to go in the greater publishing world.
 
Exescort said:
Something that bothers me.

[1] Is the site a place for published authors to promote their works?
Or,
[2] Is this site a place for people to write their own erotica, how they wish?

You know geography changes punctuation in many cases.
I'm not trying to be tetchy or insolent. I'm genuinely interested, and trying to learn.
Click to expand...

[1] Yes, but usually it's discrete.
[2] Yes, but within the confines of 'generally accepted' English (there are other languages, but I don't know about them).

Geography CAN change the way punctuation is used or perceived (it's a 'changing language') so there will occasionally be differences. But the general 'core' remains the same.
 
Grammarly

I would suggest getting a free account at Grammarly. It's very good at picking up these types of errors. :)
 
electricblue66 said:
Yes - there are writers here who publish elsewhere.

Yes - but not "how you wish". Fiction writing has basic rules - good punctuation is a fundamental thing to get basically right.

Yes - geography does cause differences but not so dramatically different as some people seem to think. Every language has basic conventions, and since English is (we assume) the predominant language here, writers should at least make an effort to punctuate consistent with their native English-speaking country. If you're American, punctuate in accordance with American conventions, if you are English, punctuate iaw English conventions, if you are Australian, etc....

But it doesn't mean, "make shit up because you don't know how to do it properly." Do it properly, according to your geographical conventions, but please, do it properly. Bad punctuation is bad punctuation wherever you are.
Click to expand...

Yes, but if you are good and helpful, you'll tell the reader that it is not in American, but Oz, or English English, for instance.


Zodia195 said:
How do you turn off Auto-correct in Microsoft Word than?

So if I am clear on this (I can't remember who mentioned this), but you can have a period at the end of the sentence if the following sentence is an action right?
.
Also, I plan on keeping my editor because this was the first time in ages that my grammar has been called out. I'd feel extremely guilty if I got rid of him.
Click to expand...

Which version of Word ?
 
Handley_Page said:
Yes, but if you are good and helpful, you'll tell the reader that it is not in American, but Oz, or English English, for instance.
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Disagree this. A writer who is not American should be under no obligation to "explain" that they are writing in their own cultural idiom. We've had a thread earlier this year that, whilst the site may be hosted out of the US, it clearly presents itself with an international flavour (Oz spelling, for those with comprehension difficulties), and the editor has no issues with allowing any other English speaking nation's use of the language to pass.

If readers from any English-speaking nation don't know, accept, or understand that other English-speaking nations are different, then they need to get out more. I'm never going to put a label on any story of mine that "apologises" for not being written in American English. Besides, the gratuitous mention of a kangaroo in the first paragraph is always the clue (that's an animal with a long tail that jumps a lot and goes tch, tch, tch). Just like you, Handley, should always mention rain and the white cliffs of Dover to make it easier for our friends across the pond to recognise they're not in Kansas any more.
 
electricblue66 said:
Disagree this. A writer who is not American should be under no obligation to "explain" that they are writing in their own cultural idiom. We've had a thread earlier this year that, whilst the site may be hosted out of the US, it clearly presents itself with an international flavour (Oz spelling, for those with comprehension difficulties), and the editor has no issues with allowing any other English speaking nation's use of the language to pass.

If readers from any English-speaking nation don't know, accept, or understand that other English-speaking nations are different, then they need to get out more. I'm never going to put a label on any story of mine that "apologises" for not being written in American English. Besides, the gratuitous mention of a kangaroo in the first paragraph is always the clue (that's an animal with a long tail that jumps a lot and goes tch, tch, tch). Just like you, Handley, should always mention rain and the white cliffs of Dover to make it easier for our friends across the pond to recognise they're not in Kansas any more.
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I love the idea of your sneaking in a kangaroo reference at the beginning of all of your stories, just so your readers, you know, understand what they're about to get into, vocabulary- and spelling-wise. It should be required to appear in one of the first three paragraphs. This could be a very amusing writing exercise. Or thread.

Seriously, though, I'm trying to think of a real situation in which announcing "Hey, I'm from Oz, mate" is going to do the reader any essential service. The first time I see someone spell the words "colour" or "favour" or "apologise" I know I'm not reading the work of an American. I don't need to know more. So I think I disagree with Handley.
 
SimonDoom said:
Seriously, though, I'm trying to think of a real situation in which announcing "Hey, I'm from Oz, mate" is going to do the reader any essential service.
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Not if expressed that way, I don't think. As an American who has lived much of my life outside the United States, I've found there are a scary number of insular Americans who have no concept that there are any other ways of speaking or rendering English than they do in the four counties around where they have always lived--and always will live.
 
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sr71plt said:
Not if expressed that way, I don't think. As an American who has lived much of my life outside the United States, I've found there are a scary number of insular Americans who have no concept that there are any other ways of speaking or rendering English than they do in the four countries around where they have always lived--and always will live.
Click to expand...

Quite so - and their lack of a broad-minded world view doesn't mean I have any obligation to educate them. Perhaps I could drop in a koala reference, but they'll just think it's a kind of bear...
 
electricblue66 said:
Quite so - and their lack of a broad-minded world view doesn't mean I have any obligation to educate them. Perhaps I could drop in a koala reference, but they'll just think it's a kind of bear...
Click to expand...

No, I don't think you have any need to educate them. I find nearly all forms of explanatory notes at the beginning of a story (excepting noting in the first chapter of a series that the work is complete and should finish posting to Literotica by X date) to be defensive and just to help the reader find the point at which they can dislike the story.

From complaints I've seen from non-U.S. authors here, I think the biggest hurdle for a non-U.S. English speaker is getting it past the U.S.-speaking editor. Sometimes what looks like too many spelling errors to one not being aware of the differences in English English (or Indian English) and American English spellings seems to be leading to rejection of something that was just fine in the speaker's form of English.
 
sr71plt said:
No, I don't think you have any need to educate them. I find nearly all forms of explanatory notes at the beginning of a story (excepting noting in the first chapter of a series that the work is complete and should finish posting to Literotica by X date) to be defensive and just to help the reader find the point at which they can dislike the story.
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This is my concern about inserting an explanatory preface of any kind before a story. It's boring and it's distracting. As an author I want my reader to plunge into the story as quickly as possible, without delay. Inserting a preface gives them something -- possibly an unhelpful something -- to think about other than the story I want to tell them.
 
So, here's another question about punctuation and direct speech in English. Google gives me several contradictory answers. Which is correct?

Brunhilde said: "No way, Jose!" (colon)

Brunhilde said, "No way, Jose!" (comma)
​


I've looked at several different explanations online, here's just two of them:

This site says I can use either, but it's "advisable" to use one or the other, depending on the length of the quoted speech:

In truth, it doesn’t really matter, and if you are introducing a quotation by using words such as “he said,” “she commented,” “they asserted,” etc. using either a comma before the quotation mark or a colon before the quotation mark is perfectly acceptable. However, as a guide, it is generally advisable that you use commas to introduce quotations that consist of less than seven words and colons to introduce anything longer than that.
Click to expand...


This site, on the other hand, says it has to do with whether or not the introduction can stand by itself as a complete sentence:

If you're unsure whether to precede a quotation with nothing, a comma, or a colon, then opt for a colon if the introduction is an independent clause (i.e., could stand alone as a single idea). For example:

She offered the following advice: "Don't drink the water."
(Here, She offered the following advice is an independent clause.)

If the introduction is not an independent clause, opt for a comma. For example:

She stated, "Don't drink the water."
(Here, She stated is not an independent clause.)
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... but the given example doesn't make sense to me, because "She offered the following advice" doesn't strike me as a sentence that can stand on its own? (It does have a subject and a verb, but then again, the counter example "She offered" also has a subject and a verb, so that can't be it.)

Thoughts, native English speakers?
 
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hylas_ said:
So, here's another question about punctuation and direct speech in English. Google gives me several contradictory answers. Which is correct?

Brunhilde said: "No way, Jose!" (colon)

Brunhilde said, "No way, Jose!" (comma)
​


I've looked at several different explanations online, here's just two of them:

This site says I can use either, but it's "advisable" to use one or the other, depending on the length of the quoted speech:




This site, on the other hand, says it has to do with whether or not the introduction can stand by itself as a complete sentence:




... but the given example doesn't make sense to me, because "She offered the following advice" doesn't strike me as a sentence that can stand on its own? (It does have a subject and a verb, but then again, the counter example "She offered" also has a subject and a verb, so that can't be it.)

Thoughts, native English speakers?
Click to expand...

It doesn't actually say "complete sentence"; it says "independent clause." It would be weird to put a period at the end of "She gave me the following advice", but it's still an independent clause, and its very different from "Brunhilde said", which is not an independent clause because it leaves out the object of the verb "said."

In the example you gave, I would use a comma, not a colon, because in that example the two words before the punctuation are clearly not an independent clause. Plus, if you read it out loud, the flow is better with a comma.
 
comma

There is a period because it is the end of the quote. iIf you want to continue the sentence you put the comma after the quote.

If you want to continue the quote for several paragraphs you use what is called a running quote where each paragraph begins with a quote to denote the quote is continuing and it only has one end quote.

It is not wise to have probably 3 or 4 paragraphs in a running quote, your reader can get lost.
 
SimonDoom said:
It doesn't actually say "complete sentence"; it says "independent clause."
Click to expand...

But if I look up on that same site what an "independant clause" is, it says it's a clause that can stand alone as a complete sentence.

If that definition is wrong, what is an independant clause?
 
hylas_ said:
But if I look up on that same site what an "independant clause" is, it says it's a clause that can stand alone as a complete sentence.

If that definition is wrong, what is an independant clause?
Click to expand...

That's a fair point. My response on that point was a little careless.

It's an independent clause, which by definition means it could function as a sentence, in that it's not missing any of its grammatically essential parts. It has a noun, a transitive verb, and an object. It's missing the thing that "following advice" refers to, but that doesn't make it a non-sentence; it makes it a bad sentence. In this sense it's different from "Brunhilde said," because the latter can't be a sentence without all its essential parts.
 
^Thanks! I think I understand, at least in theory. I probably should look into what parts of a sentence are "grammatically essential." I thought a verb and a subject were all that's needed to complete a sentence, from a grammatical perspective. But I guess there's more to it.


ETA:

So, it would be:

Brunhilde said, "No way, Jose!"​

but also:

Brunhilde cried out: "No way, Jose!"​

because "Brunhilde cried out" can definitely stand alone, right?
 
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