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When is NO really NO?

Bustymagoo said:
My friend and I were discussing this, and for some reason, I thought of all the lovely advice you give. :)

My friend (let's call her Jenny) is in a Relationship with a master, and I would have to say they are a great match. Except on one issue.
Her Master (let's call him M) is very into anal play, and while she has softened her boundaries on tongue/fingers, she is absolutely firm on NO when it comes to anal sex.
But M claims it is her duty to do whatever pleases him, even if ts not her liking. Her point is she has emotional connections to her reasoning, but feels torn between her hard boundary, and her duties to him.
So the question is; when is no really no?

My ten cents: I have never been into doing things for my partner that are absolute NOs, though I will explore if it is more of a fear than a hard line. If my M respected our relationship, he would realize the limits of his power, and respect and care for my feelings on any sexual issues we have.

Again, this isn't a "naw, it sounds icky" for her, due to her past, it is emotionally painful, scary, and in her mind, bringing old scars up to even think of anal at this time.

(ps no disrespect to any who enjoy anal activities :) )
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time, trust and healing
it sounds like the event that caused the scaring still has a powerful hold over her, and until she can lay that to rest, she will not be able to enjoy the activity. pushing and demanding could make her regress even more to the point that her Master could lose her. personally, i do not want some previous event in my life to keep me from being able to enjoy my sexuality. i don't want xyz to dictate what i am willing to enjoy. the body can have powerful reactions to stress, and she needs to work through those issues, not just so she can just get it up the ass, but so that she can move past the event that still has a hold of her.
 
He's just a piss-poor Dom if the only way he is going to approach the issue is with "guilt" and passive aggressiveness.
Skill and cunning plus a comintment to her emotional well being will get his cock in her ass faster, and she'll like.
Instead he's apparently whining and guilt tripping which is very unfaltering for a Dom and a major turn off for a sub.
Forcing a hard limit is abuse, but that dosent mean you cant try and change the subs mind about it.

By the way Hello to all.:)
 
DeepGreenEyes said:
This is alarmingly mature. Stop it.
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Ha ha. Well, don't worry, I still throw the occasional tantrum. :)

EzraPound said:
He's just a piss-poor Dom if the only way he is going to approach the issue is with "guilt" and passive aggressiveness.
Skill and cunning plus a comintment to her emotional well being will get his cock in her ass faster, and she'll like.
Instead he's apparently whining and guilt tripping which is very unfaltering for a Dom and a major turn off for a sub.
Forcing a hard limit is abuse, but that dosent mean you cant try and change the subs mind about it.

By the way Hello to all.:)
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Is it being passive agressive to say, it's your duty to please me? I once didn't feel like doing something and my PYL said, ok, weren't you just telling me that you'd never say no to a request of mine? Just checking. He said it really matter-of-fact-like. I mean, sure, he was ribbing me a little, but it was all good-natured and he was just reminding me of what I had in fact said. And of course I got down to business! I mean, there's no requirement that a PYL run around yelling commands. Some couples enjoy the push and pull. I mean, seriously, we really, really enjoy it. If our whole relationship were contained in a checklist, and nothing was ever allowed to change, snooooooooze.

Now, if a PYL doesn't enjoy pushing a pyl's limits (soft, hard, whatever), then that's ok. And if a pyl has 800 limits, but that works for his or her PYL, then that's ok too. Whatever works for those involved, but people should be honest about their bullshit.
 
A Rosco and JM: Out of curiosity, where do you se the line between the application of skill and cunning and the application of manipulative passive aggessive behaviors?
 
JMohegan said:
I've never been into the "you can do whatever you want to me, as long as it's what I want you to do to me" style of D/s.

However, I'm also not into wasting time building trust in a relationship, only to have it shattered by hastiness or lack of judgment on my part. And of course I am thoroughly uninterested in incarceration.

So my answer on this would be similar to Rosco's. If it pertains to an activity that I find desirable, I see "no" as the beginning of a process.
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yours and rosco's approach would be acceptable if it was just a kind of squeamishness. I am sure for example, that rosco could break down my hard limit relating to scat given time. But a hard limit that is the result of previous trauma... well not only is it foolish to try, but frankly it's fucking akin t rape and not the 'ooooh I'm not really not consenting' type, but actual abuse.
 
I only say it's passive aggressive when you use the "saw" of doing your duty when it's something that was established as a hard boundary.
It's perfectly in the Dom rights to say that when it's something the sub dose not want to but has a agreed to. To use that line when it's a hard boundary is just trying to "guilt" the sub into crossing it. I see these things as very differnt.
Now if a Dom wants to push the boundary and is willing to go to the trouble of ,Discussion,teasing and attempting to rise the subs curiosity about said boundary ,I think thats good Dominate behavior and certainly a characteristic I would look for in a Dom.
A good Dom makes thier sub "want to" , not by using something as course and cheep as "guilt" but by controlling the desires of the sub.
Guilt just creates resentment, Do Dom's really want their subs to resent them?
As she is clearly starting to resent her Dom.
As you pointed out you had agreed to the activity, so your Dom was just "gently " reminding you of that agreement not ,trying to guilt you in to going some were you had not agreed to.
 
Kybele said:
yours and rosco's approach would be acceptable if it was just a kind of squeamishness. I am sure for example, that rosco could break down my hard limit relating to scat given time. But a hard limit that is the result of previous trauma... well not only is it foolish to try, but frankly it's fucking akin t rape and not the 'ooooh I'm not really not consenting' type, but actual abuse.
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yes.

scat... creepy shiver... no scat... no furries... no. just no.
 
EzraPound said:
I only say it's passive aggressive when you use the "saw" of doing your duty when it's something that was established as a hard boundary.
It's perfectly in the Dom rights to say that when it's something the sub dose not want to but has a agreed to. To use that line when it's a hard boundary is just trying to "guilt" the sub into crossing it. I see these things as very differnt.
Now if a Dom wants to push the boundary and is willing to go to the trouble of ,Discussion,teasing and attempting to rise the subs curiosity about said boundary ,I think thats good Dominate behavior and certainly a characteristic I would look for in a Dom.
A good Dom makes thier sub "want to" , not by using something as course and cheep as "guilt" but by controlling the desires of the sub.
Guilt just creates resentment, Do Dom's really want their subs to resent them?
As she is clearly starting to resent her Dom.
As you pointed out you had agreed to the activity, so your Dom was just "gently " reminding you of that agreement not ,trying to guilt you in to going some were you had not agreed to.
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QFT. My online D has gotten me past many limits this way, though, admittedly, none of them were limits connected to some sort of trauma.
 
rosco rathbone said:
I personally will stop at nothing!
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In other words, your form of dominance is all about satisfying your needs without regard for the submissive's hard limits? Seems to me that you don't really want a submissive; you want a blow-up doll with a pulse.
 
midwestyankee said:
In other words, your form of dominance is all about satisfying your needs without regard for the submissive's hard limits? Seems to me that you don't really want a submissive; you want a blow-up doll with a pulse.
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I've been waiting for them to come out with one of them for a long time now.
 
rosco rathbone said:
My theory is somewhat similar. We've got normally controlling (as basic male tendency, not "perversity") young men taking their cues, due to the recent hegemony of the internet, from a culture that was basically started by people who have a hard time with interpersonal skills. The nerds now leading the normals you might call it.
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Nerds don't give me butterflies, so I'll leave 'em at the door. In the real world, the real man still rocks my world.
 
Ok, so I'm pretty much with DGE on this one:

DeepGreenEyes said:
*Civilized brain: No means no. Tell her to talk to him: if he won't respect her limits, tell her to dump the motherfucker.


*Reptile brain: Fuck you. Me want manipulation pigtail assfuck. Give me now.


-----:D
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That said,

JMohegan said:
So my answer on this would be similar to Rosco's. If it pertains to an activity that I find desirable, I see "no" as the beginning of a process.
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K's like this, always has been. I've stopped wasting my time with 'no' cause I've learned he'll eventually get his way. I use "I'm not comfortable with this" and he'll say something along the lines of "okay" . . . and eventually he wins. "Ow, stop that!" only gets me a brief reprieve. lol

rosco rathbone said:
Wiser heads just smile, come up with a face-saving change of topic and begin laying siege plans.
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Exactly.

rosco rathbone said:
Keep in mind that everywhere else in culture, home, school, TV, movies, kids are being bombarded with the idea that the only acceptable model for a relationship is "equal", in other words a nagging, superior and sarcastic female and a sheepish, henpecked male.
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Lord that annoys me. Why is 'equal' this way? I won't even watch sit com's anymore cause I'm sick of watching TV where the woman is smart and beautiful and the man is stupid and ugly. :rolleyes: Beyond that, I don't want my son to get the idea that that's okay or funny.

DeepGreenEyes said:
This is alarmingly mature. Stop it.
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LOL!
 
Can I just say that this is one of the best resistant-sub assfucking threads I've read in a long time?
 
midwestyankee said:
A Rosco and JM: Out of curiosity, where do you se the line between the application of skill and cunning and the application of manipulative passive aggessive behaviors?
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This question is way too vague for me to answer.

Give me a specific, tangible example and I may have an opinion as to whether the behavior would be characterized one or the other, but my question in response to you is - why does it matter?

Let's imagine a D who engages in manipulative passive aggressive behavior as a matter of course, and an s who voluntarily stays with him. What can we reasonably conclude, other than the fact that she finds his style of governance acceptable?

Now personally, I'm a lot more aggressive aggressive than the passive kind. But I'm also not a fucking idiot. Which brings me to -

midwestyankee said:
In other words, your form of dominance is all about satisfying your needs without regard for the submissive's hard limits?
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I don't believe in the officially sanctioned BDSM notion of "hard limits."

That is to say, I do believe that all human beings have points beyond which they can not be pushed without causing material emotional damage. But I don't believe in the checklist plan for establishing relationships.

It's about knowing your partner. When to push, when to ease up, when to insist. And yes, I consider effective manipulation to be a very valuable skill.
 
Guilt, whining and passive aggression are tools like any other. They've got to be used carefully and properly and it's easy to overdo it.
 
midwestyankee said:
In other words, your form of dominance is all about satisfying your needs without regard for the submissive's hard limits? Seems to me that you don't really want a submissive; you want a blow-up doll with a pulse.
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How the hell do you get this from anything he wrote?

He never described his M.O. as: fuck you, I'm shoving it in.

"Must prove that I can't be denied, even if it takes years." That's what he said.

Patience is a virtue! ;) Except in BDSM? :confused:
 
Does it make me a raging, insensitive bitch to say, unless you have some awful disease of the digestive system (e.g., Crohn's), anal, in the grand scheme of things, really ain't that big a deal? And this coming from someone who really doesn't like anal that much at all.
 
JMohegan said:
How the hell do you get this from anything he wrote?

He never described his M.O. as: fuck you, I'm shoving it in.

"Must prove that I can't be denied, even if it takes years." That's what he said.

Patience is a virtue! ;) Except in BDSM? :confused:
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Well, I think the tenor of the thread has been "What is the difference between a hard limit due to trauma/abuse and what is a hard limit due to dislike/fear, and how does a PYL deal with each of these kinds of hard limits PROPERLY, without damaging the pyl permanently?"
 
BiBunny said:
Does it make me a raging, insensitive bitch to say, unless you have some awful disease of the digestive system (e.g., Crohn's), anal, in the grand scheme of things, really ain't that big a deal? And this coming from someone who really doesn't like anal that much at all.
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Yes. Bitch. Mmhmm.


(Ok, I was thinking the same thing but didn't say it. :eek: ;) )
 
BiBunny said:
Does it make me a raging, insensitive bitch to say, unless you have some awful disease of the digestive system (e.g., Crohn's), anal, in the grand scheme of things, really ain't that big a deal? And this coming from someone who really doesn't like anal that much at all.
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Not a raging bitch, so much as a woman coming from a different background of sexual experience.

satindesire said:
Well, I think the tenor of the thread has been "What is the difference between a hard limit due to trauma/abuse and what is a hard limit due to dislike/fear, and how does a PYL deal with each of these kinds of hard limits PROPERLY, without damaging the pyl permanently?"
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How delightful. You've taken me off ignore.

If this is the question you want to address, by all means feel free to address it.
 
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