BDSM as therapy

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dora_salonica said:

And now we will enter the field of D/s through the front door: strength, pleasure, happiness. Here a very real continuum is apparent, a continuum of strength / weakness. The strong attract the weaker and attempt to bring them to their side. They bring them closer to strength, by increasing their strength. They cure them, that is. Even if in the current view of things, the weaker are considered healthy.

Of course this therapeutic dimension that I propose is immensely advantageous from a dialectical point of view, since it does not need to think of the submissive as a sick person. Therapy involves every submissive person, not only those persons who may indeed be mentally ill in the usual meaning of the word.

Increasing the sub's self-knowledge, which is the key to a good D/s relationship, and strengthening thus the sub, is actually the most effective form of therapy in the sense discussed above, as well as in the common use of the word.

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I had to stop reading and comment on this section.

Since it does not reflect my own experience of submissiveness, it does not seem true to me. In fact, I believe it is a very dangerous foundation for BDSM practice.

There are situations in which submission may be perceived as the action of a weaker party "showing their belly" to the stronger party in order to be allowed into the pack and therefore survive.

But my own experience with BDSM is that people are making choices to engage in a particular kind of sexual or erotic relationship - often highly defined by both parties according to their interests.

In that context, it might be true that some people seek out a BDSM relationship in order to change their own behavior - or help others change - (i.e. help me quit smoking, help me gain self-esteem, help me figure out how to live in the world), but I have not seen much evidence that those relationships are the norm or that they reliably produce the desired behavioral change.

I do know that behavioral change can occur in long-term BDSM relationships, but it is as likely to be negative and damaging as positive and healing.

It is much more important for everyone to take responsibility for themselves, their choices and their actions from the outset.

In my opinion, BDSM can definitely help you do that simply because of the threat in not doing so!

eastern sun said:

I had to stop reading and comment on this section.

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You did very well to stop here. It is an important point.

If we consider the advance of a person in life as a constant struggle for gaining knowledge and becoming better, having a better life, being more creative, enjoying more and better pleasure, then it is obvious that some of us are further along, they are more empowered, more knowledgeable, have a better knowledge of themselves, are more forgiving of themselves and others, and so on.

These people are stronger than others who are still a few steps behind, are they not? Can we all be at the same point? Not likely. For the purposes of this discussion, as the issue has been analyzed above, we are talking about strength and less strength. There is no point of total weakness, as has been mentioned. Everyone has strength, everyone has value and everyone has potential. This is a very positive view of the world and the people in it.

So, if I can find someone who has already covered these few steps ahead of me, and if I know that I relate better when I am in a submissive position with my partner, and I function better when I follow, would it be too wrong of me to ask for the Dom's help? Would it be too wrong of the Dom to take my hand and lead me?

eastern sun said:

In that context, it might be true that some people seek out a BDSM relationship in order to change their own behavior - or help others change - (i.e. help me quit smoking, help me gain self-esteem, help me figure out how to live in the world), but I have not seen much evidence that those relationships are the norm or that they reliably produce the desired behavioral change.

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Have you actually met people like that? I never have.

In my experience, no submissive person realizes that he or she still has a lot of ground to cover. It is usually a shock, when the D/s relationship begins to grapple with important matters, for one to discover that he or she is not as perfect as they thought.

I believe this is called reaction and reactance. There was an article on that somewhere, but I do not remember where to find it. Perhaps on Tanos' site... I will have a look and come back...

eastern sun said:

I do know that behavioral change can occur in long-term BDSM relationships, but it is as likely to be negative and damaging as positive and healing.

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You can say that again. I have seen that happen, with the wrong kind of Dom. One that encouraged destructive behaviors, arrogance, anger etc. Yes, shit happens... The sub has to be very careful in choosing.

eastern sun said:

It is much more important for everyone to take responsibility for themselves, their choices and their actions from the outset.

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Well, as a sub, my responsibility is to live in a way that has been shown to me by my Master as the best possible way - for now. Next year, a little better... And then better still... And I am responsible for choosing this type of life every moment. And I am responsible for choosing the right Master for me. And I am responsible for choosing a submissive life. Actions accordingly. Does this sound like an easy irresponsible life? Just because it is a life of submission?

In the context of a D/s relationship, a phobia could be cured within minutes, provided that the dominant person wanted it.

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In my opinion, that is a very dangerous, and arrogant attitude to hold. It's also such a brief mention in the writing, that I'm unsure what exactly the author means by the statement.

dora_salonica said:

In my experience, no submissive person realizes that he or she still has a lot of ground to cover. It is usually a shock, when the D/s relationship begins to grapple with important matters, for one to discover that he or she is not as perfect as they thought.

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I don't believe that these types of generalizations can be made about "submissives," because they are not always true.

There are submissive people who do not think they are as "perfect" as they actually are, and are seeking an outside perspective in which to dwell, preferring it to their own.

CutieMouse said:

In my opinion, that is a very dangerous, and arrogant attitude to hold. It's also such a brief mention in the writing, that I'm unsure what exactly the author means by the statement.

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The article appears to have been written from a dominant perspective, grappling with issues of his/her responsibility and role in the relationship.

I think it is always a good thing to examine the consequences of your own actions, to determine where the boundaries lie between you and others, and to take responsibility for the very real influences we have on each other.

But, in my opinion, the views expressed in this article are not fully developed. They are early discoveries crystallized as "truths," and if taken as the proper foundation of a BDSM relationship will lead to a lot of confusion in both dominant and submissive parties.

Who is this person who writes these essays and why should we read and consider their opinion more than anyone elses.

I agree with ES, I don't see it as a continuum between strength and weakness.
In my experience, some like to lead and some like to follow.
Doesn't mean that those who like to lead are stronger more evolved, competent or anything like that.
A good leader is someone who can utilize the strengths and competence of others.
I can just as easily see a dominant person using their submissiv to get help with things like quitting smoking, staying on budget etc.

If you want someone who is stronger or someone who is better at getting on in life, that's what you will need to be happy, but it does in no way mean that it's going to be the same for everyone else.

dora_salonica said:

Well, as a sub, my responsibility is to live in a way that has been shown to me by my Master as the best possible way - for now. Next year, a little better... And then better still... And I am responsible for choosing this type of life every moment. And I am responsible for choosing the right Master for me. And I am responsible for choosing a submissive life. Actions accordingly. Does this sound like an easy irresponsible life? Just because it is a life of submission?

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I don't think a submissive should assume that the Master's way is the "best possible way." Even when they've chosen carefully and put their trust in someone.

It is far more likely that a Master/Mistress will be pursuing what he or she wants. I believe, a submissive should feel free to voice his or her perspective within the parameters of the relationship.

As a submissive, you have the rights and responsibilities to make the best choices for yourself. You do not, and should not, abrogate self-care to a Master.

Even in a Master/slave relationship, I believe that the slave has primary responsibility for their own self-care. Ant that there should be a mechanism built into the relationship to allow the slave to express themselves. Masters and Mistresses are not omniscient beings.

(But this perspective is based on my own experience. There may be others who have had different experiences and I'd be interested in hearing their perspective.)

Aside from - or likely because of - the length of the post, its incessant dwelling on "strength" and the conceit that it may be not just possible but even a trivial matter to "cure" some mental illnesses through BDSM "therapy", I'm having a hard time getting past the author's name as Dora gives it - "Master Wrong"?!

An old song lyric keeps running through my head...

Call him Mr. Raider, call him Mr. Wrong
Call him Mr. Vain
Call him Mr. Raider, call him Mr. Wrong
Call him Insane...

Blase said:

Aside from - or likely because of - the length of the post, its incessant dwelling on "strength" and the conceit that it may be not just possible but even a trivial matter to "cure" some mental illnesses through BDSM "therapy", I'm having a hard time getting past the author's name as Dora gives it - "Master Wrong"?!

An old song lyric keeps running through my head...

Call him Mr. Raider, call him Mr. Wrong
Call him Mr. Vain
Call him Mr. Raider, call him Mr. Wrong
Call him Insane...

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Well, thank you very much.
I'm so not going to have that song playing in my head now.

One of the first hard lessons of mental illness, of true mental illness (not situational), is that your partner cannot cure you, and your relationship cannot cure you. This is a well-known reality among those of us who have to live with these things. Coming to this realization is hard on the partner also; that their "love" and "devotion" isn't enough to make you healthy.

It's pretty glaringly obvious that this guy you quoted (where are your own opinions on these matters, DS? why always turning to some perceived authority on the matter?) does not struggle with mental illness, and by extension, neither do you, DS, otherwise you'd probably know better.

BDSM can be theraputic, but it shouldn't be practiced as therapy. Two very different concepts.

IrisAlthea said:

Well, thank you very much.
I'm so not going to have that song playing in my head now.

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Lol, always happy to contribute.

Love your name, by the way. Anyone who identifies that strongly with flowers is someone I'm happy to meet.

Dominant is presumed male and mentally healthy for the sake of this article. What happens if he's the one who is mentally unwell? We're so concerned about mental health and D/s oh goody.

But we don't even raise the specter of the idea, heaven forfend, that the Master might not always be perfect. And if he isn't well HE can fix HIMSELF or go to a shrink, but she gets her health from osmosis from him.

Nice. What bugs me a lot is that I see men TOTALLY thrown to the winds when it comes to mental health by this kind of thing. Got ADD? Depression? You're not man or master material, you pussy. Crazy is for girls.

IrisAlthea said:

Who is this person who writes these essays and why should we read and consider their opinion more than anyone elses.

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A pedantic windbag.

"It is no accident of course that those amazing people, the ancient grecians, saw it right away. And instead of writing about it in lengthy texts, on some papyrus or on a marble stone, they put it inside the word itself. Ασθένεια (illness) = α-σθένος (no-strength). Αρρώστια (disease) = α-ρώμη (no-power)."

What is more, many widely respected scientists, suggest that at some point, let's say point X in time, where life expectancy is Π, the state of science would be such that ν years later, at point Χ+ν, life expectancy would be Π+ν. This means that if we moved point Χ to our era, a person who is 40 years old today has another 40 years of life ahead. But in 30 years time, that person will still be alive and will have another 40 years ahead, because life expectancy will have increased. This means immortality. And indeed, this immortality is described in mathematical terms. The health end along our continuum has disappeared in the distance, and there goes our illustration.

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^^ lol.

Though I find parts of BDSM to be therapeutic to me, (spanking, humiliation by a trusted and co-respected lover), unless one is actually an educated therapist, it's not a good idea IMO to mix the two.

Far too many times, in relationships (of all kinds), people believe they are helping one other. Often they are not or are even outright harming one another, and not in a fun, sexy, way either. Often they are merely co-deluded, codependents. Ones own perceptions are often not all that accurate when one has therapeutic, or, let's face it, sexual needs / wants.

KoPilot said:

BDSM can be theraputic, but it shouldn't be practiced as therapy. Two very different concepts.

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I patiently read through a lot here to find this one nugget . . . .

Thank you, KoPilot.

Netzach said:

Dominant is presumed male and mentally healthy for the sake of this article. What happens if he's the one who is mentally unwell? We're so concerned about mental health and D/s oh goody.

But we don't even raise the specter of the idea, heaven forfend, that the Master might not always be perfect. And if he isn't well HE can fix HIMSELF or go to a shrink, but she gets her health from osmosis from him.

Nice. What bugs me a lot is that I see men TOTALLY thrown to the winds when it comes to mental health by this kind of thing. Got ADD? Depression? You're not man or master material, you pussy. Crazy is for girls.

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That is quite impossible according to Master Wrong.
See Rosco's quote from the text.

rosco rathbone said:

A pedantic windbag.

"It is no accident of course that those amazing people, the ancient grecians, saw it right away. And instead of writing about it in lengthy texts, on some papyrus or on a marble stone, they put it inside the word itself. Ασθένεια (illness) = α-σθένος (no-strength). Αρρώστια (disease) = α-ρώμη (no-power)."




^^ lol.

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Yes, that was my impression too.

Wide_eyed_Indulgence said:

I patiently read through a lot here to find this one nugget . . . .

Thank you, KoPilot.

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I spew words in the hopes that eventually something useful will come out. Glad this was one of those occasions. :3

--

And yeah, the infallible, omniscient, mandom trope... objective realism indeed.

I found this essay a bit hard to follow; I'm not sure whether the fault is in my comprehension or the author's expression, but it felt very handwavy.

dora_salonica said:

Wrong. At least, that is the answer given by Master Wrong, the author of the text that follows. This is an excerpt from "The Definitive Guide to BDSM", soon to be available in print.

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This is why I will never be a Domly Dom. If I wrote a BDSM book it would be called something like "Bramble's Guide To How I Do BDSM (But If You Do It Differently That's Probably OK Too)".

What is therapy? Evidently it is the process through which someone who is sick becomes healthy. It is the transition from sickness to health. Simple, is it not?

Not quite. In this definition there are two unknown terms which also need a definition: sickness and health. These terms are harder to define. We need to define them in a way that they would be independent of each other (and both independent of therapy), otherwise it is as if we were chasing our own tail. More importantly, our definitions must be inherently consistent and so general as to be valid in all cases.

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No, they really don't. The worst experiences I've had with therapists are the ones who assume some universal definition of "healthy" and try to hammer everybody into that path. The good ones have taken the tack of "what do you want to achieve out of this" - i.e. decide what "healthy" looks like to me without worrying about whether it fits anybody else's definition.

I know a guy who has cerebral palsy which causes him a great deal of pain and physical disability. There's a medication that reduces those symptoms, giving much better quality of life for some years, but is also toxic and greatly shortens life expectancy. Is it "healthy" to take that medication? There's no general, universally-valid answer; it depends on individual priority.

Although modern medicine has not taken very seriously the task of coming up with an inherently consistent and general definition of sickness and health,

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Um... yes, they have. There's been a great deal of work on things like the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders, which aims to standardise diagnosis of mental health conditions. I don't say this as endorsement of DSM - it doesn't always get it right and its history shows the dangers in this approach - but it's taken very seriously by both its proponents and its detractors.

There's also the WHO's ICD, now in its tenth edition, which covers both mental and physical health.

We become aware of our own health only when thing go wrong and only indirectly.

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True of some of us (me included) but certainly not all. Athletes pay a lot of attention to positive measures of health as well as negative ones - how much they can lift, how quickly they can run a mile, etc etc.

And now we will enter the field of D/s through the front door: strength, pleasure, happiness. Here a very real continuum is apparent, a continuum of strength / weakness. The strong attract the weaker and attempt to bring them to their side. They bring them closer to strength, by increasing their strength. They cure them, that is. Even if in the current view of things, the weaker are considered healthy.

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Somewhere along the way we seem to have fallen into the assumption that "strength" is a unidimensional attribute: that the "strength" that makes DomlyDom McMasterful a good dom is the same "strength" that a bipolar person needs to stabilise their mental state, or that an autistic person needs to become better at interpreting other people's emotions. We're also assuming that a person who has this "strength" themselves is capable of communicating it to others.

It is very true that the dominant person must have specialized knowledge too, and special skills, in order to have a therapeutic affect on his or her sub (therapeutic in the sense discussed above). And it is true that the dominant person must be prepared to make the effort that is necessary. But are there any serious dominant people who are not like that?

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I smell a No True Scotsman argument waiting to be made here.

I engage in BDSM with my lovers. I take an interest in psychology, but I haven't put myself through the training required to be a competent professional counsellor, so I don't consider that I have the skills required to practice as a therapist. I don't think most other PYLs do either, even if they've read a shelfload of pop-psych books.

On the issue of emotional distance, the matter is even more simple. I do not believe that there is anyone who would doubt the need for a (sometimes) cold or even frozen look by the dominant, when that is required.

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"the need... when that is required" is tautological, so this is an empty statement.

Does this mean that ignorant people are excluded from creating D/s relationships? Certainly yes. Lazy people? Also yes. Hmm... how about those who have so many other personal obligations, which do not allow them to make the effort? Well, what can you do? Aristotle excluded from politics people who worked for a living, for the exact same reason.

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Aristotle also believed that women had fewer teeth than men and that flies arose spontaneously from spoiled meat.

Besides, all those people usually prefer vanilla/kinky behaviors anyway, so they will be fine with that.

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[citation extremely needed]

Where the hell does DomlyDom get the idea that busy people don't want to be doms? Being time-poor is often driven more by economic circumstances than by any psychological preference.

And what happens if a dominant person is in a relationship with a sub who suddenly becomes sick? Should dominants attempt to cure the sub on their own? How do you cure a psychosis in D/s?

It is perfectly clear that the dominant person does not have to do that himself or herself. Therapy will be carried out with medicine given by a doctor who is more specialized than the dominant,

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I'm glad to see this said, but it runs directly contrary to the opening of this essay: "If someone needs therapy, well they should go to a therapist. Right? Wrong."

to whom the dominant will send the sub whether he/she likes it or not. By ordering the sub the dominant helps him/her to overcome the greatest obstacle to being cured, which is the refusal to see a specialist.

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Refusal to see a specialist certainly can be an obstacle to therapy, but in the context of serious mental illness, calling it the greatest obstacle is arguable. Some things are very difficult to treat even with a motivated and cooperative patient.

I have refrained from discussing less important mental illnesses, according to their classification, such as phobias, anxiety, frigidity etc (that would be like stealing food from a baby's mouth).

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...um, we are aware that phobias and anxiety can be crippling, right? And that "frigidity" (sic) can cause immense difficulties in a relationship?

In the context of a D/s relationship, a phobia could be cured within minutes, provided that the dominant person wanted it.

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...and this is just bullshit. Dangerous bullshit at that.

KoPilot said:

BDSM can be theraputic, but it shouldn't be practiced as therapy. Two very different concepts.

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Standing ovation for this! A good thrashing, a flood of endorphins, a good cry, and my reset button is all shiny and new. But I would no more burden Master with helping me to adjust meds or walk me through reconnecting with my behavior mods than I would my chiropractor, my hair stylist, or the cute girl at the caffeine acquisition shop.

Was there a question in all of that OP stuff, anyway? Or just another ideological pronouncement from some dude who calls himself master?

I keep trying to read this and getting completely lost in the "logic."

All I can really get out of it is something I already knew--every hard dick wants to play Captain Save-A-Ho as long as it's not too inconvenient for him, his ego, or his hard-on.

As someone who has been--and I suppose still is, since it's not as though these things just go away--severely mentally ill, it's pretty obvious the author knows jack shit about mental illness. He's welcome to his own delusions, I guess, but the suggestion that somebody else's control kink is somehow a substitute for professional help is dangerous and no more credible than the people who say all you need to do to get better is to exercise/do yoga/stop feeling sorry for yourself/find Jesus/whatever. Ill people have enough obstacles to getting the proper help; the last thing they need is more of that sort of bullshit.

BiBunny said:

I keep trying to read this and getting completely lost in the "logic."

All I can really get out of it is something I already knew--every hard dick wants to play Captain Save-A-Ho as long as it's not too inconvenient for him, his ego, or his hard-on.

As someone who has been--and I suppose still is, since it's not as though these things just go away--severely mentally ill, it's pretty obvious the author knows jack shit about mental illness. He's welcome to his own delusions, I guess, but the suggestion that somebody else's control kink is somehow a substitute for professional help is dangerous and no more credible than the people who say all you need to do to get better is to exercise/do yoga/stop feeling sorry for yourself/find Jesus/whatever. Ill people have enough obstacles to getting the proper help; the last thing they need is more of that sort of bullshit.

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My recent favorite is when my dad got it into his head that the root of everyone's ills is that we're all breathing the wrong way. Of course, being Enlightened, he knows the correct way to put oxygen in your lungs. Not that it's fixed his Petty Asshole Syndrome.

KoPilot said:

My recent favorite is when my dad got it into his head that the root of everyone's ills is that we're all breathing the wrong way. Of course, being Enlightened, he knows the correct way to put oxygen in your lungs. Not that it's fixed his Petty Asshole Syndrome.

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*Snort*

That's because the problem is everyone else, dear, not him. Once the world finally realizes that it has to adjust itself in order to revolve around him, everything will be perfect.

Netzach said:

Dominant is presumed male and mentally healthy for the sake of this article. What happens if he's the one who is mentally unwell? We're so concerned about mental health and D/s oh goody.

But we don't even raise the specter of the idea, heaven forfend, that the Master might not always be perfect. And if he isn't well HE can fix HIMSELF or go to a shrink, but she gets her health from osmosis from him.

Nice. What bugs me a lot is that I see men TOTALLY thrown to the winds when it comes to mental health by this kind of thing. Got ADD? Depression? You're not man or master material, you pussy. Crazy is for girls.

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Yep. And about seventeen intersections of nope right around the bend.

Matter of fact, let me offer up this resource right here; Out of the Fog dot com, information and resources for people who have problematic loved ones.

Blase said:

Call him Mr. Raider, call him Mr. Wrong
Call him Mr. Vain
Call him Mr. Raider, call him Mr. Wrong
Call him Insane...

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Argh! Earwormed!