Incest has become mainstream.

BTW 'Magnus, I generally iggy someone when they sink to the point of basically telling me "don't trouble me with your so-called survivors," so it's only fair to warn you that I won't be seeing your further replies. Would hate for you to waste your energy, I know what a drag that can be.

That bingo card does practically write itself, I must say. IRL-Incest advocates here have a habit of all reeling through the same very specific set of fallacies, denials and evasions, it's like they're all reading the same blog or something. Weird.

Hypoxia said:

Let's roll some of these together. A murderous incestuous traitorous rapist with halitosis and inner demons rampages across the countryside shouting vile slogans and shooting stray dogs.

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It all works except the halitosis. Ew.

Her brother tries to calm her down with oral sex. How does she respond?

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By projectile vomiting with a French accent all over her retro-Nineties crop top, naturally.

CyranoJ said:

…it's only fair to warn you that I won't be seeing your further replies. Would hate for you to waste your energy…

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Ignoring people who tell you that you're all wet is certainly one way of dealing with them. And, by the way, a very effective way of maintaining your rationalizations.

CyranoJ said:

(Oh, and statistical data on incest is not that hard to come by. Of course you won't like it on account of it starts from the assumptions the evidence actually supports wherein it's mostly child abuse.)

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I looked at the citation. The source is about child abuse, so it doesn't provide any data that's relevant to the subject of incest between consenting adults.

I would not be at all surprised if it is the case, as I think you suggest, that the bulk of cases of incest are involuntary, either between a parent and underage child or between underage siblings of significantly varying age. But even if that is so, it doesn't at all address the subject of incest between adults. Are those cases invariably abusive? I don't see why they would be. There are cases of siblings, even twins, forming relationships as adults. How would that abusive? It could be, but there's no reason why it must in all cases be so. There are reports of cases of incest that do not appear to be abusive or harmful, although it's not clear to me how common they are.

SimonDoom said:

But even if that is so, it doesn't at all address the subject of incest between adults.

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AFAICT that's because pristine cases of "incest between adults" rarely actually happen. It's mostly a conceit of porn and erotic fiction, not an actual thing. My guess -- and I freely admit this is just a guess, I'm not a professional in the field or anything -- but my guess is that because of things like the Westermarck effect (mentioned earlier upthread) it's super-unlikely for close family relations to spontaneously develop an interest in fucking each other without prior abuse, grooming or dysfunction having happened.

The exception to that is relatives who have been reunited after adoption or other separation. There aren't huge numbers of these cases as compared with those involving child abuse AFAIK, and there's no systematic study of them that I know of either. But that article I linked earlier that 8letters didn't much care for is actually about just such a father-daughter case: and interestingly enough, even there, there's pretty strong evidence of the father -- separated from his daughter when she was young -- having used her sense of abandonment to effectively groom her when they reencountered each other. Where such cases do bubble up into the media, wrinkles like that are a part of them frequently enough that I don't buy the contention that even these adult encounters can be truly free of power imbalances.

Of course it's not like such cases couldn't still make for perfectly good erotic stories. *shrug* If I ever do get around to writing for I/T here it's probably the angle I'd go with.

CyranoJ said:

AFAICT that's because pristine cases of "incest between adults" rarely actually happen.

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Or do you mean "are rarely reported"?

CM was right. Ignoring people who challenge you is just another strategy to keep them from sticking those unpleasant pins in your rationalization balloons. It may protect you from facing facts you don't like, but everyone else sees right through it.

LewBrishess said:

Or do you mean "are rarely reported"?

CM was right. Ignoring people who challenge you is just another strategy to keep them from sticking those unpleasant pins in your rationalization balloons. It may protect you from facing facts you don't like, but everyone else sees right through it.

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I laughed. You pointed out a statement that is impossible to be made (CJ isn't in a position to know everything that has happened) and then turn around and do the same thing yourself. There are multiple reasons to put someone on ignore. You're not privy to the only reason there is to do it.

CarlusMagnus said:

Incest is mainstream.

There are never laws that prohibit activities that people—including mainstream people—don't indulge in.

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http://www.skamaniacounty.org/ordinance/Bigfoot Ordinance 69-01.pdf

LewBrishess said:

Or do you mean "are rarely reported"?

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Yeah, in the same way Nazis who love being punched in the face are "rarely reported." The way this works is that if you don't have evidence of something, you don't just get to assume that the absence of evidence is concealing something you want to believe exists.

Ignoring people who challenge you is just another strategy to keep them from sticking those unpleasant pins in your rationalization balloons.

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I actually just don't have time to read the same garbage (non-)arguments over and over -- had more enthusiasm for that shit in my twenties than I do in my forties -- but hey, Carlus may feel free to reframe it in whatever way best preserves his ego. I'm not fussed.

Bramblethorn said:

http://www.skamaniacounty.org/ordinance/Bigfoot Ordinance 69-01.pdf

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It's only prudent. But it doesn't deal with Yeti incest. Time for some amendments.

Hypoxia said:

It's only prudent. But it doesn't deal with Yeti incest. Time for some amendments.

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I love that the first paragraph of the ordinance misspells "Homo sapiens."

CyranoJ said:

I love that the first paragraph of the ordinance misspells "Homo sapiens."

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Did you notice the effective date? April 01, 1969. How timely...

yesdim said:

if i do a totto on the ass of my 4 yo granddaughter-i start mechanism turning her in a whore?))

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Or into a politician. Same thing. Start young.

Hypoxia said:

Did you notice the effective date? April 01, 1969. How timely...

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Heh.

CyranoJ said:

AFAICT that's because pristine cases of "incest between adults" rarely actually happen.

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* Beats head against wall *
We know that adult incest happens all the time because first cousins marry all the time. I know you want to use some alternate definition of incest that excludes first cousins but the definition that's used in the I/T category does include first cousins. The fifth highest rated complete story in the I/T category is London Girl whose description is "The arrival of a foreign cousin changes a girl's life." #2 is about second cousins raised in the same household. #3 is about half-siblings that didn't know the other existed because they grew up in different countries.

CyranoJ said:

It's mostly a conceit of porn and erotic fiction, not an actual thing. My guess -- and I freely admit this is just a guess, I'm not a professional in the field or anything -- but my guess is that because of things like the Westermarck effect (mentioned earlier upthread) it's super-unlikely for close family relations to spontaneously develop an interest in fucking each other without prior abuse, grooming or dysfunction having happened.

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"I don't know shit about what I'm talking about but that's not going to stop me from calling you all perverted monsters."

CyranoJ said:

But that article I linked earlier that 8letters didn't much care for is actually about just such a father-daughter case: and interestingly enough, even there, there's pretty strong evidence of the father -- separated from his daughter when she was young -- having used her sense of abandonment to effectively groom her when they reencountered each other.

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Grooming implies that he intended to have sex with her from the start of the relationship. The evidence for that is?

CyranoJ said:

Where such cases do bubble up into the media, wrinkles like that are a part of them frequently enough that I don't buy the contention that even these adult encounters can be truly free of power imbalances.

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The vast majority of relationships have power imbalances. The average age difference in relationships in the US per Facebook is over 2 years (male older than female) when the average partner age is 20 and quickly zooms to 8 years when the average partner age is 36 (link). Men on average make considerably more than women. There is nothing about the presence of a power imbalance that implies that the relationship can't be a healthy, long-lasting one.

CyranoJ said:

Of course it's not like such cases couldn't still make for perfectly good erotic stories. *shrug* If I ever do get around to writing for I/T here it's probably the angle I'd go with.

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OH...MY...GOD. After railing all this time about how people like MM and myself are monsters, you think the type of relationships we were discussing are perfectly fine in at least a theoretical way.

8letters said:

[FAIL]

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I've said already -- in fact right at the top of the page where you first responded to me -- and REPEATED AGAIN EXPLICITLY AT THE TOP OF MY LAST REPLY TO YOU, that the distinction I was making was about knowing the difference between fantasy and reality, not about whether fantasy fiction about incest was fine. My issue with MM is that pimping it as real-life practice is not fine.

I have a feeling you're still not quite grasping this distinction:

you think the type of relationships we were discussing are perfectly fine in at least a theoretical way

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Because I did not say that incest is fine in "at least a theoretical way." I said it is fine as a subject of fiction. Those are different things.

At any rate, I'm not going to belabour that. And having already clarified what my argument was, and who and what it was with, I really can't say as I have a lot of patience for your failed attempts at snark and sarcasm. This, for example?

"I don't know shit about what I'm talking about but that's not going to stop me from calling you all perverted monsters."

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"Aha! You admitted to not knowing absolutely everything! Gotcha!" Pull your freaking head out, man. I'm pretty sure you can be better than this.

So TBH that stuff kind of disinclines me to engage with the rest of your post for the time being. However, your question about what the evidence for "grooming" was in the article I discussed is potentially worth addressing if we can do it as an actual conversation sans the defensive pearl-clutching, so if you're up for that feel free to let me know and I'll come back and do it.

Another issue with incest becoming more mainstream has to do with the ability to publish. Rape, murder, and countless other topics that should remain illegal can be published freely.

While several types of incest are legal, there has been and continues to be some resistance to its publication. In particular Amazon removed most of the ebooks with I/T as their central theme in 2010 and takes down ones reported for it now. As they have made Taboo Season 1 available for download to Kindle, perhaps the rules will be re-investigated.

Consenting adults should be able to do what ever they like together especially in print.

* No adults refereed to in this post have been groomed, manipulated, blackmailed, tortured, bribed, sold, lied to or in any way convinced to commit incest with each other.

-MM

MindsMirror said:

Another issue with incest becoming more mainstream has to do with the ability to publish. Rape, murder, and countless other topics that should remain illegal can be published freely.

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I think a tiring problem with this thread beyond the point that this isn't real life and it's just one of many edge issues that people write about in stories here that aren't acted out in real life to any significant degree because of the stories here (I think some are, but I believe far more are acted out because of violence in media entertainment than a backwater issue like incest) is that you haven't evidenced your premise, and others here, including myself, don't accept your premise. I think incest is a backwater issue both in real life and in media and isn't more or less in the mainstream as it ever has been, realizing that everything is offered in the media now more than it was before technology caused the depth of the media to burgeon.

So I think the thread is irrelevant to writing stories on Literotica or in the increase of anything in real life. Incest is big at Literotica, because Literotica has the biggest accessible-for-free and anonymity collection of it around. People come here because it's here in volume and that they come here increases it being here in volume. It has as little to do with real life as writing about violence and/or rape an/or underage sex or with the proportion of the population that is into incest or is reading it.

Pointedly, we are writing and reading fiction here. Arguments over real life are moving off into irrelevancy here. (To make them relevant, you need to construct your argumentation around reading stories causing people to go off and do that--which at least has arguable background.)

^ And yeah. This.

MindsMirror said:

Another issue with incest becoming more mainstream has to do with the ability to publish. Rape, murder, and countless other topics that should remain illegal can be published freely.

While several types of incest are legal, there has been and continues to be some resistance to its publication. In particular Amazon removed most of the ebooks with I/T as their central theme in 2010 and takes down ones reported for it now. As they have made Taboo Season 1 available for download to Kindle, perhaps the rules will be re-investigated.

Consenting adults should be able to do what ever they like together especially in print.

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You can publish incest fiction within the USA. But Amazon (and other retailers and publishers) are not obliged to publish it or sell it for you. That's the other half of the "consenting adults can do what THEY like" picture.

I doubt Amazon marketing Taboo signals a change in policy, because as far as I know the "no incest" rule has only ever applied to self-pub material.

Bramblethorn said:

You can publish incest fiction within the USA. But Amazon (and other retailers and publishers) are not obliged to publish it or sell it for you. That's the other half of the "consenting adults can do what THEY like" picture.

I doubt Amazon marketing Taboo signals a change in policy, because as far as I know the "no incest" rule has only ever applied to self-pub material.

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It has also been applied to e-publishers, like Boruma Publishing, Carnal Pleasures, and others.

CarlusMagnus said:

It has also been applied to e-publishers, like Boruma Publishing, Carnal Pleasures, and others.

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True. Even erotica publishers who also publish paperbacks.

CarlusMagnus said:

It has also been applied to e-publishers, like Boruma Publishing, Carnal Pleasures, and others.

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Thanks, I stand corrected. But they certainly do seem to draw the line differently depending on the prestige of the author/publisher.

I'm very pleased to know that incest is now mainstream. Now if you toney cognoscenti would just notify my publishers. If I try to submit an incest story, they punt it back on my face and threaten to cut me off from publishing. Gonna be a brave new world!

Bramblethorn said:

Thanks, I stand corrected. But they certainly do seem to draw the line differently depending on the prestige of the author/publisher.

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To the extent that prestige equals earning power, yes.