Better to write from a female or male's perspective?

SimonDoom said:

I think sometimes too much emphasis is put on the importance of personal experience. In my view, imagination is much more important. What makes a story work is not realism, but verisimilitude -- the use of just enough detail to create the appearance of reality, rather than the actual mimicking of reality.

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Agree. I can't recall the last time I (or anybody else) transitioned from being a man who walks on land into a mermaid who swam in the sea and later went on to lay an egg (her son), but somehow I was able to write about it.

I write all of my GM stories from the male perspective (although writing one from a female's perspective is an interesting thought). Seriously, though, this is the sort of question that makes me want to go over to a blackboard and run my fingernails down it.

RubenR said:

Whether being realistic or imagination is most important probably also depends on the type of story/category, but I can assure you I would never do this kind of research. No-one is supposed to know what I'm doing behind that laptop...

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Okay, in the example of the Firehouse Gangbang, I wasn't suggesting you go ask firemen about gangbangs. Just write it as a regular gangbang, but go ahead, and visit the firehouse for the Setting. That way, anyone who's been, and/or worked in a Firehouse (I had community service in one) isn't going to see any glaring background erors, because the author is writing from ignorance.

You don't really have to have been in a gangbang to write one. However, if you're writing a girl getting gangbanged in a firehouse, it helps to experience being gangbanged at least once, because in a lot of ways, it's not like you would expect.

Same with writing a Cuckhold, a lot of incels, MGTOWs, and other sexists write about "Cucks" to reassert their insecurities, and have no idea what it's like to be Married. Let alone watch their spouse with another man. Likewise straight guys writing "Lesbos" and straight guys who've never met a transperson writing "Shemale" porn...

Cuckholds love reading cuckhold porn, and hate reading "Cuck" porn, because it's got nothing to do with the turn-on. That's some ignorant fuck's fantasy of a Cuck. Or a lesbian, or a woman getting gangbanged, or a mother-in-law seducing her daughter's husband.

So, Know Your Audience. If you're a man, writing this for men, then write it as a man. If you're a man writing this for women to fiddle off to, ask a woman who's into that sort of thing. To find out what she likes to fiddle off to, and avoid anything that might turn her off. Or, you have every risk of losing the reader, and not even knowing why.

It's that simple.

electricblue66 said:

Agree. I can't recall the last time I (or anybody else) transitioned from being a man who walks on land into a mermaid who swam in the sea and later went on to lay an egg (her son), but somehow I was able to write about it.

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Again, that's Worldbuilding. You can't ask a mermaid, and one is unlikely to ever read your story to cry "Fake!" So, you get to decide what it's like, because it's not in the real world. In a Realistic story (If you want it taken seriously) you have to do research, just in case someone who's actually had a female orgasm might want to read it. That's how you can describe, in detail, what it feels like to have cervical spasms.

psiberzerker said:

That's how you can describe, in detail, what it feels like to have cervical spasms.

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I'm dead curious... is the accurate description of cervical spasms (which, in my ignorance, I will freely admit I had no knowledge of until now), something that turns women on?

I just assumed they sort of spasmed in the tubular bit, and if that was wet at the time, that was generally considered to be a good thing. Why my female friends never told me about the cervical spasms, is something I'll raise with them at the next 'Oh God, Jason, Please Shut The Fuck Up About Writing Porn' meeting I hold.

KeithD said:

I write all of my GM stories from the male perspective (although writing one from a female's perspective is an interesting thought). Seriously, though, this is the sort of question that make me want to go over to a blackboard and run my fingernails down it.

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Looks like another thread that needs Big Corn.

psiberzerker said:

So, Know Your Audience. If you're a man, writing this for men, then write it as a man. If you're a man writing this for women to fiddle off to, ask a woman who's into that sort of thing. To find out what she likes to fiddle off to, and avoid anything that might turn her off. Or, you have every risk of losing the reader, and not even knowing why.

It's that simple.



Again, that's Worldbuilding. You can't ask a mermaid, and one is unlikely to ever read your story to cry "Fake!" So, you get to decide what it's like, because it's not in the real world. In a Realistic story (If you want it taken seriously) you have to do research, just in case someone who's actually had a female orgasm might want to read it. That's how you can describe, in detail, what it feels like to have cervical spasms.

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I have to say, I don't agree with this.

As far as I'm concerned, as a writer you have no obligation to talk to someone who's gone through something to write about the something.

There are lots of women who've gone through things who have no clue how to write about what they've gone through. Writing is its own thing. A good writer can write about something he or she has never experienced. Obviously, it helps to have experienced something to be able to write about it convincingly. But, IMO, a writer shouldn't hesitate to write something or adopt a POV, that is outside the writer's experience if that's what the writer wants to do. The results can be compelling and interesting even if the thing being written about falls outside the writer's personal experience.

SimonDoom said:

As far as I'm concerned, as a writer you have no obligation to talk to someone who's gone through something to write about the something.

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I'm not compelling anyone to any obligations. I'm just saying if you want women to read and enjoy it, get a women's perspective. There's plenty here you can listen to.

A good writer can write about something he or she has never experienced. Obviously, it helps to have experienced something to be able to write about it convincingly. But, IMO, a writer shouldn't hesitate to write something or adopt a POV, that is outside the writer's experience if that's what the writer wants to do. The results can be compelling and interesting even if the thing being written about falls outside the writer's personal experience.

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Yes, but the Story is easier to believe, for someone who Has say experienced sex as a woman, if you get it right. INSY this is a difficult concept. Potentially half of your readers are women, and if you don't care enough to ask one, write for men, like a man.

psiberzerker said:

I'm not compelling anyone to any obligations. I'm just saying if you want women to read and enjoy it, get a women's perspective. There's plenty here you can listen to.

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You seem to have this notion (it comes up often in your posts), that a man can't write women without explicit guidance from a woman, which is nonsense - which is what Simon is saying, I think.

Many women, for example, have commended me for writing strong, empowered women - and in one story series, writing a strong woman with a disability - yet not once did I "consult" a woman as to "what worked for them" for those stories. The commendations came along afterwards. Indeed, I've cited elsewhere, just yesterday, a comment from a fellow writer (a woman) expressing amazement that some words I wrote were actually written by a man - which is pretty much saying that I have a strong feminine (or feminist) sensibility.

Sure, I draw on my life experience of growing up in a very gender aware family in the late sixties/early seventies and then becoming someone who generally enjoys the company of women more than the company of men (as my writing will surely show), but to suggest I (being a man) need to go away and talk to women before I write women is actually a bit of an insult. I'm sure you don't mean it that way, but that how it comes across, when it becomes a mantra and holy writ. I think that's what we're reacting to, Simon and I.

Ironically, I'm currently getting most of my, "For fuckssake, don't write that in your story, you'll upset the kittens," advice from Mr Clearwater over there -----> He has, for example, set me quotas on unsuitable words and when to use them, or not, as the circumstances require. So the notion that I'd best consult a woman first is under serious challenge. He refuses to wear a dress .

electricblue66 said:

Ironically, I'm currently getting most of my, "For fuckssake, don't write that in your story, you'll upset the kittens," advice from Mr Clearwater over there -----> He has, for example, set me quotas on unsuitable words and when to use them, or not, as the circumstances require. So the notion that I'd best consult a woman first is under serious challenge. He refuses to wear a dress .

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I learnt everything I know from reading Belinda Blinked.

That guy. What a guy. Knows his cervixes.

Incidentally, if we were ever wondering if Goodreads votes were a good measure of a work's quality... this should prove that they're not.

That book gets 3.95/5, and it's not been listed as humour. That guy's son is a fucking marketing genius.

Belinda Blumenthal gets exciting, sollicited sex regularly, so regularly in fact she makes big bonuses from it. Based in London UK, Belinda works for Steeles Pots and Pans as their world wide Sales Director. Sexually supported by Giselle and Bella her head office colleagues, Belinda always gets the order when it comes down to the bare facts. The client base is large so Belinda has the whole world to fuck and boy does she get stuck into it. This is the first book in the Belinda Blinked series where she gets hired by Tony her Managing Director and then goes on to make some sales headway by bringing on board a large European customer, Peter Rouse, and makes initial inroads to the North American market through Jim Stirling. Read about the sexual conquests these men make and how the mysterious Duchess makes Belinda alive to the sexual fantasies of the hot riding set through supple black riding boots, jodhpurs and leather handled whips....

electricblue66 said:

You seem to have this notion (it comes up often in your posts), that a man can't write women without explicit guidance from a woman, which is nonsense - which is what Simon is saying, I think.

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Or, there's ways to make a story Better. In this particular instance, based on the OP. You seem to belaboring the delusion that it's an Absolute. It isn't, it's a suggestion that can improve a story, when you're unsure, And one of several options. (Like writing as the male in this story, if he's more comfortable with it.)

Many women, for example, have commended me for writing strong, empowered women - and in one story series, writing a strong woman with a disability - yet not once did I "consult" a woman as to "what worked for them" for those stories. The commendations came along afterwards. Indeed, I've cited elsewhere, just yesterday, a comment from a fellow writer (a woman) expressing amazement that some words I wrote were actually written by a man - which is pretty much saying that I have a strong feminine (or feminist) sensibility.

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And that's great.

Sure, I draw on my life experience of growing up in a very gender aware family in the late sixties/early seventies and then becoming someone who generally enjoys the company of women more than the company of men (as my writing will surely show), but to suggest I (being a man) need to go away and talk to women before I write women is actually a bit of an insult. I'm sure you don't mean it that way, but that how it comes across, when it becomes a mantra and holy writ. I think that's what we're reacting to, Simon and I.

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It's neither a mantra, nor holy writ. I gave other examples, and I talked about all kinds of other things in this very thread. I'm starting to think you want to be insulted, when I wasn't even talking to you, and you doth protest too much. I would suggest you've already talked to women, listened to them, and gotten positive feedback. So yeah, you don't have to skip that step, you've already done it.

Also, I said more specifically mothers with married daughters (I.E. Sons in law) since it's more than just womanhood. It's a story about a mother-in law, and whether to write this one from her perspective. I'd suggest the same thing for let's say a Jewish spinster from Brooklyn writing about gay cowboys in Montana. It's a FAQ, if the question doesn't change much, neither do the possible answers.

psiberzerker said:

Yeah, unfortunately, I can't interview a family pet, because of the language barrier.

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It's a mighty weak author who can't put words into animals; mouths. Shit, look at Garfield.

Hypoxia said:

It's a mighty weak author who can't put words into animals; mouths. Shit, look at Garfield.

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LOL, okay. If i wanted to write a cartoon,.



Sexy! INS what that semicolon is in there for, a bowel resection?

Research is good if you want to skip having glaring issues with your story. If I’m reading something and it deals with a subject I know a lot about and the author is getting it totally wrong, I have a hard time finishing the story/book/movie.

POV: the first stories I had on lit are written from 3rd person female perspective. I got the idea about the story from talking to a few women about sex, fantasies and some of their fears and hopes. I actually received several comments and emails from women telling me that it was exactly how they felt at different times in their lives. I also got (and did until I changed my signature) messages from guys thinking I was a woman. Very funny to correct them.

Write the story how it feels best to you. “Stay in your lane” is one of the worst pieces of advice you could ever listen to as an author. I find it highly offensive when people say it.

Apisto42 said:

“Stay in your lane” is one of the worst pieces of advice you could ever listen to as an author. I find it highly offensive when people say it.

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This, and "Write what you know" which is very similar. I prefer to Expand what I know, because there's a lot of fascinating topics, and people to talk to. So, "Research" isn't really like a chore, or something I have to do, it's just fun, and interesting. With the side benefit of having fun, and interesting characters.

"Write what you know" is good advice for beginners at writing.

"Write what you know; can research; or can imagine" is better advice for those who have been writing for some time.

Yeah, the sci-if genre would have a hard time existing if we couldn’t imagine things. Granted, I prefer my sci-fi to have things be at least possible, but I’m okay with it if it is not. Suspension of disbelief and all that.

To add to, or I suppose clarify, what I wrote above, I'm not knocking personal experience, and I'm all for research. I completely agree that it helps to know about something if you want to write about it.

I just think that in the context of choosing the POV for an erotic story, personal experience isn't necessarily as important as it might be for other things. It's also a little hard to imagine how one would get that personal experience (i.e., as a woman), unless you have a really helpful partner who's good at expressing herself. Reading books and other people's stories seems like a more probable source -- that's what I've relied on. I would say as well that I've picked up useful information about women and their POV through various relationships (I like to think they've taught me something), but since nobody knows I write these stories I haven't ever asked someone pointed questions that would shed light on POV in a story.

Apisto42 said:

Yeah, the sci-if genre would have a hard time existing if we couldn’t imagine things. Granted, I prefer my sci-fi to have things be at least possible, but I’m okay with it if it is not. Suspension of disbelief and all that.

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"Possible" and suspension of disbelief. It really depends on how serious the piece is. For example, the transporter Beams on Star Trek are a Plot Device, and it's a Western. "Wagon Train to the Stars." ~G. Roddenberry.

So, I kinda handwave the fact that for matter-transmission, they need a receiver on the other end. otherwise, you'll just get a warm spot on the surface, without the technology to put the Away Team back together. You really want a cutaway scene of sending a shuttle down, so they have a platform there, every time they want to Explore Strange New Worlds? It's basically just a Princeps ex Machina to begin with.

It's willing suspension of disbelief, and it can go the other way with "Realism." Sometimes, authors just show off how much they know about, let's say Forensics, and cram the whole story with all these distracting details. Consistency for me is key here, for example CSI: NY wasn't just exchanging a Cobalt Film for a Sepia Filter on Miami. They also had the wondertron 9,000 that somehow calculated the trajectory of a bullet from the body of a mountie that toppled ass over tincups out of the saddle.

That's what we like to call a random element, and it's glaring. Less glaring in a Crime-Dromedy like NCIS where Donozzo would have fired as a probie, and Gibbs for publicaly assaulting his underlings before the first season. Abbie stood out, but not really out of place when they compared themselves to CSI "If you're dislexic" in the trailers, but not to the serious tone of JAG. Then, Ari parked in the middle of a bridge (A no parking zone) with a rifle hanging out of his window, and nobody saw him there, except through the 4th wall. We expect Deadpool to talk to the audience, but it's a little weird when Batman does it, because he's more grounded in our Reality.

That's the ultimate goal here: Don't lose the audience. If you can get their attention with a hook (Say a mother in law seducing her son) and Keep it long enough to the end, that's a successful story. Suspension of Disbelief is kind of an agreement with the author, and the reader. The author not to throw something out there that's Too out there, and the reader not to roll their eyes too much.

Some readers will check your speling, and yeah I mispel misspell intentionally to see who's more concerned about nit-picking to get the joke. (A lot more common in Utoob comments.) You can't please everyone all the time, but you sure can piss them all off. That's all advice threads like these are. There's no perfect stories, but this is a FAQ. How can we make this Better?

Honestly, it depends on who you're writing this for. If it's men, write as a man, so he's going to have less trouble suspending his disbelief. If it's women, then write as the woman, again so they have less trouble suspending their disbelief. (In general. Talking Stars in the rating system here.)

If you're writing for you, then write whatever you want.

Another option would be 3rd person, which I tend to avoid. In this particular story, it has many elements that would lend it'self to 3rd Person Descriptive (Fly on a Wall) or 3rd Person Omniscient (God's Eye View.)

There's only 2 characters in this scene, right? It's not a 3some between the young man, his wife, and their mother/in law. One of the reasons I have touble with 3rd Person is the more bodies in the room, the more there is to describe, and it goes up exponentially. You have to write a linear narrative, but there's 3 people's thoughts, feelings, actions, and trialog to keep track of. One at a time, so when do you describe how her bouncing breasts feel, how her daughter feels about it, or how the son-in-law compares the 2 racks..?

So, it's better for a 2 body scene. I'd suggest Descriptive unless the inner conflict, and pseudo-incest taboo is a major part of it. That way, the characters can lie, without the reader being spoiled, by knowing what's going on in their heads the whole time. It also vastly simplifies things compared with 3rd Person Omniscient, and allows you to focus on the sexy action.

Excellent advice for novice writers looking to write women.

Michelle Wolf - A Strong Female Lead

SimonDoom said:

I just think that in the context of choosing the POV for an erotic story, personal experience isn't necessarily as important as it might be for other things.

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There's a basic principle of acting. It's called "Let's pretend," Harrison Ford's technique.

There's a basic principle of writing fiction. It's called "Make stuff up," like they do at Faux Newz. Make up a person, pretend you know them, and run with it.

Then have someone read it to assure that you haven't soiled yourself. Or just let it go; maybe you'll have another 50 SHADES.

Hypoxia said:

Or just let it go; maybe you'll have another 50 SHADES.

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Okay, you take that back! Although, really, EL James, winning at life, if not at writing.

JasonClearwater said:

Okay, you take that back! Although, really, EL James, winning at life, if not at writing.

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Speaking of EL James -- and not to knock her for what she accomplished with that book, however you describe it -- I have a beef with how her trilogy handled the POV issue.

Almost all of it is told in the first person POV from Anastasia's perspective. That's fine.

But the book has a passage or two that suddenly shifts to the third person to reveal what another character is thinking, and I remember when I read that being really annoyed.

Plus, at the end, James retells the initial meeting between Anastasia and Christian from his point of view, and I'm not sure why, but that bugged the crap out of me. I felt as a reader like I was being played with.

POV matters, a lot, but not mainly based upon whether you have personal experience with it.

Consistent PoV is really important. I can agree on that.

Not so much whether you have any personal experience, but how many of the readers can relate to the narrator's PoV.

The more experience you have with that PoV (Or can learn about through research) the more readers will be able to relate to the characters. That's what I'm talking about women can relate to women better. I assume that's why Anastasia did most of the narration (And James just said "Fuck it!" when she got to points Anasatasia couldn't possibly know about.)

It's Easier on the Author. That's the point, it's easier for him to relate to him, write a narrative that male readers will relate to, AND give female readers more insight into, without going to extra effort asking women.

Know your audience. Write for them. It will almost certainly come out better that way.

psiberzerker said:

Consistent PoV is really important. I can agree on that.

Not so much whether you have any personal experience, but how many of the readers can relate to the narrator's PoV.

The more experience you have with that PoV (Or can learn about through research) the more readers will be able to relate to the characters. That's what I'm talking about women can relate to women better. I assume that's why Anastasia did most of the narration (And James just said "Fuck it!" when she got to points Anasatasia couldn't possibly know about.)

It's Easier on the Author. That's the point, it's easier for him to relate to him, write a narrative that male readers will relate to, AND give female readers more insight into, without going to extra effort asking women.

Know your audience. Write for them. It will almost certainly come out better that way.

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Do you think many men were a) reading 50 Shades, or b) suddenly were able to relate to the parts written from a male POV inside the context of the rest of it?

Not saying you're wrong, you're not. Just that 50 Shades is perhaps not the best example.

JasonClearwater said:

Do you think many men were a) reading 50 Shades, or b) suddenly were able to relate to the parts written from a male POV inside the context of the rest of it?

Not saying you're wrong, you're not. Just that 50 Shades is perhaps not the best example.

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It was the one I was responding to. sort of. It's the best example that you can't account for luck, or the tastes of the masses, but it was written by a woman, (Mostly) from a woman's PoV, and for some reason, a lot of women (And unfortunately girls) related to it.

{Sigh.}

So, if even the worst example seems to back me up...