That

Haulover said:

I do the same thing with commas when editing. They make sense when writing, but if I read the text a few days later I find them annoying. The prose is more fluent with the careful elimination of commas - or sometimes, similar to that "that" editing, it's necessary to re-write the sentence.

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Not sure why you are eliminating the commas, do they count against your total word or character count? What do you mean when you say "the prose is more fluent with the careful elimination of commas"? If commas are taking up too much space in your writing perhaps you should eliminate periods too, and really speed up the flow all stream-of-counsciousness-like...


Horse for courses, I guess. I don't see/feel any loss of speed or flow reading text with commas in the appropriate places. I like short terse sentences without 'em, and long prolix sentences dripping with them, depending.

Axelotto
just don't get the comma-hate

Can we revisit the original sentence for a moment? I don't really understand it.

"She scanned her surroundings, both hoping and not that someone would see her."

I'm not a grammarian, but it looks to me like "She scanned her surroundings" is the main clause and the remainder of the sentence is a participial phrase. Within the phrase "that someone would see her" is a subordinate clause, and "that" is the subordinate conjunction. "That" actually serves a purpose in the sentence.

If you want to keep the sentence as close to it's original as you can, then I think you still need to clarify the negation. It would become "both hoping and not hoping." I suspect though, that "not hoping" doesn't really catch what you mean. Could it be "both hoping and fearing?"

If "both hoping and fearing..." is a participial phrase, then I don't think the comma should be there.

The sentence would be "She scanned the horizon both hoping and fearing that someone would see her." It reads fine to me, and probably better with "that" than without it.

NotWise said:

Can we revisit the original sentence for a moment? I don't really understand it.

"She scanned her surroundings, both hoping and not that someone would see her."

I'm not a grammarian, but it looks to me like "She scanned her surroundings" is the main clause and the remainder of the sentence is a participial phrase. Within the phrase "that someone would see her" is a subordinate clause, and "that" is the subordinate conjunction. "That" actually serves a purpose in the sentence.

If you want to keep the sentence as close to it's original as you can, then I think you still need to clarify the negation. It would become "both hoping and not hoping." I suspect though, that "not hoping" doesn't really catch what you mean. Could it be "both hoping and fearing?"

If "both hoping and fearing..." is a participial phrase, then I don't think the comma should be there.

The sentence would be "She scanned the horizon both hoping and fearing that someone would see her." It reads fine to me, and probably better with "that" than without it.

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I think you're broadly right, but I don't get why you want to remove the comma. As your final suggestion reads, doesn't that suggest it's the horizon that is both hoping and fearing someone would see her?

tomlitilia said:

I think you're broadly right, but I don't get why you want to remove the comma. As your final suggestion reads, doesn't that suggest it's the horizon that is both hoping and fearing someone would see her?

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The rule I read on punctuating a participial phrase following the main clause was that it shouldn't be set off with a comma if it refers to the last word of the main clause. In this case it doesn't refer to the last word ("horizon") so maybe it should be there.

I suggested taking it out because its absence doesn't obscure the sentence, and (to me) its presence doesn't help; the horizon wouldn't be capable of "both hoping and fearing."

I too am a that-aholic. I'm going through my story and trying to kill that's. A lot are dying, but I'm struggling with some that are too close for comfort.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
“I don’t ever want to go out on a first date, said Kate firmly. “I don’t want to try to make conversation with a guy I don’t know well. I’m terrible at that kind of a thing and I feel like an idiot. I don’t see any point in going through the agony.” The way she said this, it was clear she had given it a lot of thought and was certain of her opinion.

I, on the other hand, was dumbfounded by what she had said. “Then how are you going to get a boyfriend?”

“I…One day I’ll be with a guy I like, we’ll look at each other and we’ll kiss.” She said it like it was the most sensible thing in the world. “And that’ll be it - we’ll be boyfriend-girlfriend. We’ll go out on dates afterward, but the first kiss will happen because we enjoyed being with each other.”

“Seriously?” I didn’t know what to say. “I hope that works out for you.”

“I know it sounds kind of crazy, but that’s how I want it to be. I’d be comfortable starting a relationship that way. I wouldn’t be comfortable starting a relationship by going out on a date.”

I could see Kate being more comfortable with a relationship that started like that. “Okay, Kate. Some day, you’ll find the right guy for you and I can see that working for you.”

Kate got flustered. “Thanks. Thanks for believing in me.” She sighed for a moment, as if she was deciding to say something embarrassing. Then she said, “I’ll tell you something even more crazy - I want to marry the first guy I kiss. Once I find that right guy, I’ll kiss him and I’ll be done.”

I didn’t know what to say as that was totally unrealistic to me. Kate read lots of Romance novels and I could see how she could think that could happen - it happened all the time in the books she read. But every couple I had ever known had broken up. We were too young to be talking about forever.

I said, “When you find that right guy and kiss him, I’m sure he’ll be totally wowed. You’re special, Kate, and you’ll find that right guy for you.”

An “Aw-shucks” look came over Kate’s face. She was flustered for the rest of her call, but in a good way.

As I laid in bed that night getting ready to fall asleep, it struck me - Kate had kissed me. Twice. What crazy nonsense.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
As she turned, I saw that the straps that went around her arms were faux straps and that the top underneath had a band around the sides like a normal bikini top. The back of the top was a narrow band and the back of the bottom was on the small size but yet nicely lifted and shaped Kate’s heart-shaped ass.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

I said, “When you find that right guy and kiss him, I’m sure he’ll be totally wowed. You’re special, Kate, and you’ll find that right guy for you.”

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For starters:

"When you find the right guy and kiss him... you'll find the right guy for you."

"I hope it works out for you."

"I saw the straps around her arms were faux straps, and the top underneath had a band around the sides like a normal bikini top."

8letters said:

I too am a that-aholic. I'm going through my story and trying to kill that's. A lot are dying, but I'm struggling with some that are too close for comfort.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
“I don’t ever want to go out on a first date, said Kate firmly..."

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I'd have a hard time removing a lot of That's from this section without substantially rewriting. Most of them can't be removed because they're being used as pronouns and the sentence depends on them. Just the same, there are a lot of 'that's.' Maybe a bit of a rewrite would be good.

8letters said:

As she turned, I saw that the straps that went around her arms were faux straps and that the top underneath had a band around the sides like a normal bikini top. The back of the top was a narrow band and the back of the bottom was on the small size but yet nicely lifted and shaped Kate’s heart-shaped ass.

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As she turned, I saw that the straps around her arms were faux straps and the top underneath had a band around the sides like a normal bikini top.

I think the one 'that' left needs to stay there for the flow of the sentence.

NotWise said:

The rule I read on punctuating a participial phrase following the main clause was that it shouldn't be set off with a comma if it refers to the last word of the main clause. In this case it doesn't refer to the last word ("horizon") so maybe it should be there.

I suggested taking it out because its absence doesn't obscure the sentence, and (to me) its presence doesn't help; the horizon wouldn't be capable of "both hoping and fearing."

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The comma should be there precisely for the reason you observe: the phrase modifies "scanned", not "horizons."

"Hoping and not" needs to be modified, in my view. It's awkward. I don't think "not hoping" is exactly what the author wants to say in counterpoint to "hoping." I think "fearing" hits closer to the mark.

8letters said:

I’m terrible at such things and I feel like an idiot.

“Seriously?” I didn’t know what to say. “I hope it works out for you.”

“I’d be comfortable starting a relationship this way. I wouldn’t be comfortable starting a relationship by going out on a date.”

I could see Kate being more comfortable with a relationship that started in such a way. “Okay, Kate. Some day, you’ll find the right guy for you and I can see how it would work out for you.”

Once I find the right guy, I’ll kiss him and I’ll be done.”

I didn’t know what to say as it was totally unrealistic to me. Kate read lots of Romance novels and I could see how she could think it could happen - it happened all the time in the books she read.

I said, “When you find the right guy and kiss him, I’m sure he’ll be totally wowed. You’re special, Kate, and you’ll find the Mr. Perfect which suites you.”

As I laid in bed at night getting ready to fall asleep, it struck me - Kate had kissed me. Twice. What crazy nonsense.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
As she turned, I saw <removed> the straps which went around her arms were faux straps and how the top underneath had a band around the sides like a normal bikini top.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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I tried getting rid of the 'That's. There might be a few in there you might consider a good alternative. Does that help? Not all sentences flow particularly better, but I thought giving a few alternative methods might give you an idea what you can do to get rid of the word. After all, it's still up to you what you replace and whatnot.

Thanks for the help!

..............

KindofHere said:

If you open a PDF or EPUB or other books online, do a control search/find and look up the words you think are a problem for you and you'll realize that they really aren't a problem. Everyone uses them when. It's a problem in your own head most of the time because you've read a rule somewhere and now you're thinking, "I need to follow that rule!"

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It's not me following some rule I read somewhere. I write very poorly - the initial draft I produce is full of poor writing from a technical point of view. I make so many typos, use a homonym instead of the right word, use "check" instead of "cheek", add a random word to a sentence, put in unneeded that's and then's, etc. It takes me months to write a story. I'm willing to spend some more time to make the story as good as possible. And that to me means trimming out bloat like unneeded that's.

I saw that you removed all your stories from the site

Another problem paragraph:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
“I’ve got a year lease with Travis I’m already a half a month into and it’d cost a lot of money to get out of it. If you don’t move into the dorms at this point, you have to pay a huge fee. That’s a lot of money Mom and Dad would have to pay and I don’t see them paying it. Particularly as our only reason for them spending the money is that we had a good time together at Disney World. Would you tell Mom and Dad that you enjoyed being my girlfriend so much at Disney World that you want get an apartment with me?”
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@8letters Try looking at my previous examples of your posted text and see which one of the words might fit your current 'that'. Yes, that means you can sometimes even omit them in the first place. Use above example to try to rewrite your current paragraph and see what you come up with. It`ll be a good practice session and you might get used to edit by making use of such a list of substitutes to replace them with.