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Poets I don't get

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greenmountaineer

Literotica Guru
Joined
Nov 28, 2008
Posts
2,442
We have postings of favorite poems from famous poets from time to time. Some say, however, only poets read poetry, and if then modern poetry, in particular, was more intelligble, more people would appreciate poetry.

I think there's some truth to that. That said, can we learn something as poets from something that we gloss over, scratch our head about, and don't bother to read again because we didn't "get it" the first time?

It occurred to me that a thread where someone posts a poem he/she "just doesn't get" may be of some value inasmuch as someone else maybe "does get it," or maybe concurs with the confusion. Either way I think something is learned.

So, if you know of a poem that has maybe a few great lines, but leaves you confused, post it here. Perhaps someone else will critique it.
 
Perhaps the poet I least get and one of his recent poems:

Late-ish
BY JOHN ASHBERY

The girl in the green ski chasuble
hasn’t yet graduated from radio school.
Let’s pay attention.

Looking ahead, why, he waved his mouth along.
Doesn’t life get difficult in the summer?
The divine medicine for it collapsed
in front of the shortstop,
who took off like a battalion.

Crowds of older people who would read this
happily, willingly, then walking into night’s embrace,
then kiss. “To turn you out, to turn you out!”
Sometimes an arm is accused:
You could have felt it, the blue shirts,
phlegm central, four times a night.
But what does that get me?
Light refreshments.

When the suburban demonstration kind of shrunk
you put your foot out,
leave it or kiss it
or even two years ago,
Charmaine here tells us.
I think I should stay ...    

Cross-eyed sonofabitch ...    
He liked him, he could tell. A de-happening.
The gangster no longer wanted to sleep with him,
but what the heck. With time off
for actual fuzz collected ... All right, boys.
Cheap murders, peach driven ... I seen enough of those
samples along the way.

Source: Poetry (March 2016).

Someone help me out here. What the hell is he saying?
 
GM, I am laughing here because I saw your thread title and thought "John Ashbery," only to open it and find you posted one of his poems! I've read about him, trying to understand, and I still don't "get" him. :cool:
 
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I read it a few times, which is more than it deserved.

Stuff like this turns me off from further reading a poet.

You had your chance. You blew it.
 
Pulled from Wikipedia:

"Renowned for its postmodern complexity and opacity, Ashbery's work still proves controversial. Ashbery has stated that he wishes his work to be accessible to as many people as possible, and not to be a private dialogue with himself. At the same time, he once joked that some critics still view him as "a harebrained, homegrown surrealist whose poetry defies even the rules and logic of Surrealism."

Maybe that's the point of his poetry: Get yourself a few sheepskins and then pull the wool over everyone's eyes.
 
greenmountaineer said:
Pulled from Wikipedia:

"Renowned for its postmodern complexity and opacity, Ashbery's work still proves controversial. Ashbery has stated that he wishes his work to be accessible to as many people as possible, and not to be a private dialogue with himself. At the same time, he once joked that some critics still view him as "a harebrained, homegrown surrealist whose poetry defies even the rules and logic of Surrealism."

Maybe that's the point of his poetry: Get yourself a few sheepskins and then pull the wool over everyone's eyes.
Click to expand...

There's a difference being wishing it to be true and it being a reality. :rolleyes:

What I write is accessible to as many people as possible by virtue of the fact that most people can understand it.
 
Context is everything and in the Ashbury poem posted in this thread it will be impossible to understand without a (very) close relationship with the poet, his cliques and background, however I did enjoy reading it (just the first) set the mind to turning, Like a cat contemplating a bit of fluff moving in the breeze :rolleyes:
 
Ashbery

GM, I find the poem you've chosen especially difficult to understand. Some are easier. I'll put up an example in a minute. I've done some reading about him at The Poetry Foundation. The biography has some really interesting insights into his writing. This first quote from it about his early influences helps me understand what he intends to do in his poems (if not the specific poem in question here):

Critics have noted how Ashbery's verse has taken shape under the influence of abstract expressionism, a movement in modern painting stressing nonrepresentational methods of picturing reality. "Modern art was the first and most powerful influence on Ashbery," Helen McNeil declared in the Times Literary Supplement. "When he began to write in the 1950s, American poetry was constrained and formal while American abstract-expressionist art was vigorously taking over the heroic responsibilities of the European avant garde." True to this influence, Ashbery's poems, according to Fred Moramarco in the Journal of Modern Literature, are a "verbal canvas" upon which the poet freely applies the techniques of expressionism. Ashbery's experience as an art critic in France during the 1950s and ‘60s, and in New York for magazines like New York and the Partisan Review strengthened his ties to abstract expressionism.

He does have other, later influences and has been associated with movements of poetry like the Romantic American School (think Whitman and even Wallace Stevens--I can see a link between him and Stevens, for sure). He also deals in pop culture and typically American idioms, both of which we see in your example. He was a big influence of The New York School of poets. Some of my favorite 20th C. poets like Frank O'Hara and Ted Berrigan have cited him as a major influence on them, so I think you can call him a precursor of that school. Knowing that doesn't make him easier to understand, :cool: but it does help place him in the history of 20th C. poetry.

I get the feeling, reading your example, that the poem should not really be read as a narrative, but more a series of impressions to convey some overall expression. Given how recent your example is, I thought he might be writing about race and some of the incidents that led to the Black Lives Matter movement. But that's my subjective take.

This quote, also from the bio, is very helpful imo.

In his verse, Ashbery attempts to mirror the stream of perceptions of which human consciousness is composed. His poetry is open-ended and multi-various because life itself is, he told Bryan Appleyard in the London Times: "I don't find any direct statements in life. My poetry imitates or reproduces the way knowledge or awareness come to me, which is by fits and starts and by indirection. I don't think poetry arranged in neat patterns would reflect that situation. My poetry is disjunct, but then so is life." His poems move, often without continuity, from one image to the next, prompting some critics to praise his expressionist technique and others to accuse him of producing art that is unintelligible, even meaningless.

There's also thought that Ashbery writes a lot about poetry--in this example (which, unfortunately I can't date), you get a feel for that. It's almost as if the poem is saying "hey, don't forget I'm really a poem."

This Room

The room I entered was a dream of   this room.
Surely all those feet on the sofa were mine.
The oval portrait
of   a dog was me at an early age.
Something shimmers, something is hushed up.

We had macaroni for lunch every day
except Sunday, when a small quail was induced
to be served to us. Why do I tell you these things?
You are not even here.
— John Ashbery

I don't see that at all in your example, so maybe he stopped doing it or does it less now.

Anyway that's my (perhaps garbled) take on him. There are articles and more poems of his at the Poetry Foundation site.
 
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Wow what the everything he'll did I just read. Is there much point trying to put that together it's so freaking disjointed. To me it reads like a whole heap of different scenes rammed together and made confusing as hell. I wonder what purpose disjointed lack of cohesion serves?
 
todski28 said:
Wow what the everything he'll did I just read. Is there much point trying to put that together it's so freaking disjointed. To me it reads like a whole heap of different scenes rammed together and made confusing as hell. I wonder what purpose disjointed lack of cohesion serves?
Click to expand...
..
I like it even if I don't understand (his) poetry going to do one of my own that no one can understand :cattail:
 
HarryHill said:
..
I like it even if I don't understand (his) poetry going to do one of my own that no one can understand :cattail:
Click to expand...

It reads like Rohypnol poetry as if he spent an evening with Bill Cosby and they were the moments he came too and write whatever the he'll was going on in his head

I can see the allure of liking it based on fragmented cohesion and being able to project a sense of your own consciousness in to fill in the blanks. But on a personal note, I'm with magnetron. Let it make sense please, my brain hurts enough most of the time as it is.
 
HarryHill said:
..
I like it even if I don't understand (his) poetry going to do one of my own that no one can understand :cattail:
Click to expand...

todski28 said:
It reads like Rohypnol poetry as if he spent an evening with Bill Cosby and they were the moments he came too and write whatever the he'll was going on in his head

I can see the allure of liking it based on fragmented cohesion and being able to project a sense of your own consciousness in to fill in the blanks. But on a personal note, I'm with magnetron. Let it make sense please, my brain hurts enough most of the time as it is.
Click to expand...


Dancing bananas for everyone!
Harry was crying out
while tending to his prize winning daffy-dill about
to keel over from too much watering
much like Nixon in his thirst
listening in on our private conversation
where I told you to
Beware! of the Billy Goat's gruff
Enough!
I say first
I say second
Begone!
as Lance and Sean did a fecund dance on Hill's lawn
till the wee hours of the dawn
Com'on, com'on -
Kill me!
Do eet DO EET NOW!
Schwarzeneggar shouted at Predator
before the cows came home
 
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Nonsense doesn't have a leg to stand on if it doesn't have its own musicality or isn't set to music.
 
A line by line commentary (just for fun)

The girl in the green ski chasuble
Passion or serendipity lay down on the riverbed.

hasn’t yet graduated from radio school.
An enigma asked you a question?

Let’s pay attention.
A great silence revels in authority.
----------------
Looking ahead, why, he waved his mouth along.
A fly tenderly sees to her child.

Doesn’t life get difficult in the summer?
A river a thousand paces wide is always a pleasure.

The divine medicine for it collapsed
Wondrous awe is a storyteller without equal.

in front of the shortstop,
Abstraction is interdependant on the relatedness of motivation, subcultures, and management.

who took off like a battalion.
Spam bathes in sunlight.
---------------------------
Crowds of older people who would read this
The legend of the raven's roar rains heavily.

happily, willingly, then walking into night’s embrace,
Significant understanding lay down on the riverbed.

then kiss. “To turn you out, to turn you out!”
Pinocchio is nonsensical, much like me.

Sometimes an arm is accused:
The sky gambles with lives, happiness, and even destiny itself!

You could have felt it, the blue shirts,
Camouflage paint bathes in sunlight.

phlegm central, four times a night.
A great silence has its world rocked by trees (or rocks).

But what does that get me?
A fly tells the tale of towers.

Light refreshments.
Another day tells the tale of towers.
-------------------------------
When the suburban demonstration kind of shrunk
A caring mother is like a summer breeze.

you put your foot out,
Stupidity tenderly sees to her child.

leave it or kiss it
The flow of quizzes will take you to places you never expected not to visit!

or even two years ago,
A wave loudly clashing against a long shoreline shakes beliefs widely held.

Charmaine here tells us.
Two-finger John bathes in sunlight.

I think I should stay ...
Sevenworm will take you to places you never expected not to visit!
---------------------
Cross-eyed sonofabitch ...
A glittering gem welcomes spring!

He liked him, he could tell. A de-happening.
The legend of the raven's roar is like a summer breeze.

The gangster no longer wanted to sleep with him,
Lonely Henry lies ahead, what with the future yet to come.

but what the heck. With time off
Lucky number slevin set a treehouse on fire.

for actual fuzz collected ... All right, boys.
The other side wanted the TRUTH!

Cheap murders, peach driven ... I seen enough of those
The person you were before is often one floor above you.

samples along the way.
A stumbling first step wants to set things right.​
 
Angeline said:
GM, I find the poem you've chosen especially difficult to understand. Some are easier. I'll put up an example in a minute. I've done some reading about him at The Poetry Foundation. The biography has some really interesting insights into his writing. This first quote from it about his early influences helps me understand what he intends to do in his poems (if not the specific poem in question here):

Critics have noted how Ashbery's verse has taken shape under the influence of abstract expressionism, a movement in modern painting stressing nonrepresentational methods of picturing reality. "Modern art was the first and most powerful influence on Ashbery," Helen McNeil declared in the Times Literary Supplement. "When he began to write in the 1950s, American poetry was constrained and formal while American abstract-expressionist art was vigorously taking over the heroic responsibilities of the European avant garde." True to this influence, Ashbery's poems, according to Fred Moramarco in the Journal of Modern Literature, are a "verbal canvas" upon which the poet freely applies the techniques of expressionism. Ashbery's experience as an art critic in France during the 1950s and ‘60s, and in New York for magazines like New York and the Partisan Review strengthened his ties to abstract expressionism.

He does have other, later influences and has been associated with movements of poetry like the Romantic American School (think Whitman and even Wallace Stevens--I can see a link between him and Stevens, for sure). He also deals in pop culture and typically American idioms, both of which we see in your example. He was a big influence of The New York School of poets. Some of my favorite 20th C. poets like Frank O'Hara and Ted Berrigan have cited him as a major influence on them, so I think you can call him a precursor of that school. Knowing that doesn't make him easier to understand, :cool: but it does help place him in the history of 20th C. poetry.

I get the feeling, reading your example, that the poem should not really be read as a narrative, but more a series of impressions to convey some overall expression. Given how recent your example is, I thought he might be writing about race and some of the incidents that led to the Black Lives Matter movement. But that's my subjective take.

This quote, also from the bio, is very helpful imo.

In his verse, Ashbery attempts to mirror the stream of perceptions of which human consciousness is composed. His poetry is open-ended and multi-various because life itself is, he told Bryan Appleyard in the London Times: "I don't find any direct statements in life. My poetry imitates or reproduces the way knowledge or awareness come to me, which is by fits and starts and by indirection. I don't think poetry arranged in neat patterns would reflect that situation. My poetry is disjunct, but then so is life." His poems move, often without continuity, from one image to the next, prompting some critics to praise his expressionist technique and others to accuse him of producing art that is unintelligible, even meaningless.

There's also thought that Ashbery writes a lot about poetry--in this example (which, unfortunately I can't date), you get a feel for that. It's almost as if the poem is saying "hey, don't forget I'm really a poem."

This Room

The room I entered was a dream of   this room.
Surely all those feet on the sofa were mine.
The oval portrait
of   a dog was me at an early age.
Something shimmers, something is hushed up.

We had macaroni for lunch every day
except Sunday, when a small quail was induced
to be served to us. Why do I tell you these things?
You are not even here.
— John Ashbery

I don't see that at all in your example, so maybe he stopped doing it or does it less now.

Anyway that's my (perhaps garbled) take on him. There are articles and more poems of his at the Poetry Foundation site.
Click to expand...

This is helpful and thought provoking, Angie. I find the McNeil quote about how "constrained" poetry in the 50's was almost laugable. Coincidentally, one day I came across a list of different poetry movements in the 20th century. I think I counted 21. I guess I'm too constrained in believing there should be the semblence, at least, of a narrative. Stringing disparate sentences together and then calling it a poem is what any student in high school sophomore English can do as a homework assignment. I like "This Room" much better.
 
Has he found the site where you ask the computer to write a poem and it churns out something indecipherable?
 
I think of Ashbery as the Dali of poetry. And Dali when you analyse everything was essentially a conman.

A Lit poet I find 'hard to get' is Lauren Hynde. However, even though in her case I frequently remain mystified/confused, I still think she is well worth the effort. I read a stack of her stuff in the first year or two I was here, sometimes I gave up, but I also found that working hard on her poems helped a lot with other poets too.
 
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