Insider or Outsider?

A quote from a picture-thread:

Professional bimbos.
Professional bimbos.
Professional bimbos...

Yawn.
Yawn.
Yawn.
Yawn....

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When you comment like that as a newbie (or as an old dog), you are a bit hard to love.
Putting a bit of effort in posting, is time well spent IMHO.



Another thing is, that there is something funny about displaying new posts.

I have lots of unread posts disappearing from the subscription list.
I can see that the last post is newer than my latest log-on, but for some reason the forum decides to "roll the time period", and if I do not notice that, I miss some of the new posts in threads that I follow.

Erochic said:

My experience is mixed.

I really enjoy reading and recognize that there is a lot of knowledge and insight here, but I can also feel too intimidated to post.

I don't really feel that accepted - or feel that I am taken seriously - but I have persisted and posted a few threads here. A couple didn't get much response, but I guess they probably didn't really deserve much - and I got a nice PM giving me rope resources.
I got a lot of response to my thread about submissive men - thank you for that...though I felt the responses to that came from posers from elsewhere and that the regulars basically just ignored it.
A couple of regulars did post and point out that by saying "no Femdom stereotypes" I was also dictating what female dominance should look like, which was a good point and got me thinking and I think added to the discussion.

I often really want to ask for advice or suggestions.... Because I just don't feel very creative or imaginative - but that's something I feel intimidated about.

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I'm glad you posted your observations. My own guess is that any threads here (or anywhere else) that seek the input of submissive men will get a fair number of trolls or posers and that it has nothing to do with the person who started the thread or even the stated objective of the thread. I just think it's part of that particular territory.

Please do reconsider your feeling of intimidation about asking questions. We only bite when it's safe, sane, and consensual.

Stag of Oberon said:

something I would like to see an end to is the quashing of bids for brain storming. Why? if you're not feeling creative, just don't post. There's no reason to get defensive and announce that "If you've got no creativity of your own you've got no fire in your relationship," nor "I don't know you why should I?"

If you don't know someone, ask. If you're too tired to let someone else tap your brain, just don't comment. I get that these kinds of threads are all too often nothing more than blatant bids for wank material. SO WHAT. If those threads didn't get stepped on instantly, & consistently, brain storming may or may not happen, maybe other questions or ideas might come up as a result of brainstorming. Maybe someone suggests something stupid & old timers can get a chance to show their safety expertise. Or maybe someone suggests something stupid and no one says anything. So what.

Maybe a few more people looking for those ideas or that wank material might actually find it, would that be the end of the world? It costs you nothing to move along.

It should come as no surprise that these kinds of threads are almost always started by new posters who have clearly not done their homework re: this forum. No one else would be so fool hardy. But please ask yourself; why should this space be so toxic that anyone who has done their homework should know better than to start such a thread.

If no one answers, then no one answers. But if it's left open ended, maybe that can be an invitation to new or less jaded posters to provide content. Stepping up and immediately saying "no wank material here," is not a way to encourage anyone else to post.

I used to love brainstorming here. I've come to realize I don't feel safe participating anymore, and I do know that anxiety is not entirely phantom.

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I'm with you on this one. I don't feel anxiety about it-- not on this subject, anyway-- but yeah. Some of us do better with an example or two to work off of, and there is no need to denigrate that.

midwestyankee said:

I'm glad you posted your observations. My own guess is that any threads here (or anywhere else) that seek the input of submissive men will get a fair number of trolls or posers and that it has nothing to do with the person who started the thread or even the stated objective of the thread. I just think it's part of that particular territory.

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Actually the trolls and posers were outnumbered by genuine intelligent interested posters who contributed to a very interesting discussion. It seemed that a lot of posters came out of the woodwork (and from other areas of the forum) to post. I guess another way to look at it is that they don't usually post in the BDSM forum (apart from in threads like the Forced Facesitting thread).

Please do reconsider your feeling of intimidation about asking questions. We only bite when it's safe, sane, and consensual.

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Well I do really like being bitten
So that really sounds encouraging.

Actually... That leads me to a question I've been dying to ask, so I may make a thread.

Stag of Oberon said:

The presence and willingness of (non-trolly) submissive men to post here has been something I've noticed is definitely cyclical. As a demographic that is shy, often treated poorly in the scene, yet simultaneously has a shunned "privileged" status that they (we?) don't personally identify with, it should be no surprise that submissive men wait for dominant women to take the lead and call them out specifically, which while uncommon; happens at almost predictable intervals.

Part of that cycle too is the periodic prevalence of F/f only dominants, asshat threads (which are awesome), and run of the mill trolls, among other factors I'm sure, which serve to remind submissives that posting here comes with a risk of open humiliation (the not fun kind), and for men, very little promise of reward or community. I'm not saying those things should or can change, it's just a pattern I have observed.

So sure, those lurkers appear to be posters from other parts of the forum, because there's no welcome mat for them here. This emotional need for an engraved invitation may seem ridiculous at first, but with the climate & conversation of rape culture as it is, I think it's entirely fair to say that welcome mats are very important to submissives, perhaps of any gender, but especially submissive men.

I feel like I'm going out on a limb here; sharing "inside" observations about a demographic I no longer identify with, but I hope it helps you put the life cycle of the board in perspective a little.

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That does make a lot of sense.
It was a conclusion I was groping to as I further expanded my answer, but you have stated it so clearly and eloquently.

I imagine it's not just a problem with this board, or this forum, or even the scene - but actually it's a reflection of the way society in general views submissive men.

Well I guess that means we have to make more corners and more spaces that are more welcoming- and that tells me that I need to pay some attention to my thread that I neglected when life overwhelmed me and I stepped away from Lit (and relationships) for a while.

Certainly not!

Nor do I believe it ever did. I think you probably didn't want to join us in ATL?

midwestyankee said:

And my invitation better not get lost in the mail this time.

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I have absolutely nothing to add, but this is just so beautifully constructed, and so eloquently delivered, I felt moved to comment on the fact.

Stag of Oberon said:

The presence and willingness of (non-trolly) submissive men to post here has been something I've noticed is definitely cyclical. As a demographic that is shy, often treated poorly in the scene, yet simultaneously has a shunned "privileged" status that they (we?) don't personally identify with, it should be no surprise that submissive men wait for dominant women to take the lead and call them out specifically, which while uncommon; happens at almost predictable intervals.

Part of that cycle too is the periodic prevalence of F/f only dominants, asshat threads (which are awesome), and run of the mill trolls, among other factors I'm sure, which serve to remind submissives that posting here comes with a risk of open humiliation (the not fun kind), and for men, very little promise of reward or community. I'm not saying those things should or can change, it's just a pattern I have observed.

So sure, those lurkers appear to be posters from other parts of the forum, because there's no welcome mat for them here. This emotional need for an engraved invitation may seem ridiculous at first, but with the climate & conversation of rape culture as it is, I think it's entirely fair to say that welcome mats are very important to submissives, perhaps of any gender, but especially submissive men.

I feel like I'm going out on a limb here; sharing "inside" observations about a demographic I no longer identify with, but I hope it helps you put the life cycle of the board in perspective a little.

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FurryFury said:

Certainly not!

Nor do I believe it ever did. I think you probably didn't want to join us in ATL?

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I'll be checking my mailbox.

Stag of Oberon said:

unless you're talking about the subject appearing to be less than SSC... then we bite peoples heads right off (usually)... in the figurative literary sense.

It may not be welcoming, but that's still one of the things I've appreciated here over the years. Still... occasionally you gotta step back and and talk about whether it's truly non-SSC, or just a different fetish than we're used to, with the SSC points glossed over to the point of "not enough info".

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Good point. I also think that it's easy to forget not everyone writes like a trained journalist, so we take people's intents to be clear based on the words they use. But if they use words like "force" or "punish" or "choke" in ways that seem like they don't know what they're doing, it sets off alarm bells. Instead, we should be asking for clarification more often. People who are new at something don't always express themselves in the same way that those with more experience do, and that can make all the difference. What a new-ish poster might really mean by "force" is simply "be aggressive for a change" and "punish" could easily mean "spank her for the first time ever, maybe three swats before she wants to stop" and "choke" could easily just mean "putting my hand on her throat while I kiss her deeply" - but we don't really know.

midwestyankee said:

In recent weeks I've read - and have been told - more than once that we who are regulars in this particular forum tend to treat newcomers poorly. That we tend to make them feel unwelcome. I have, more than once, tried to defend our group against this claim. That it has come up more than a few times from more than a few sources has made me pause to wonder if I'm just blind to actions that others can see clearly.

I have questions then, that I hope we can all try to answer as plainly as possible. Even if - and preferably if - doing so means that we force ourselves to see our own actions in a stark light. Honestly, I don't remember what my experience was as a newbie here 8 years ago, so I hope that others who are much newer can help us put some light on the place.

What does it take to become an insider in the BDSM forum?

It's been said that we tend to shun newcomers - or at least some of them. What does this look like? What actions constitute shunning in this case?

What are the rules of behavior around here? What rules do we accept for ourselves and inflict on others? Maybe we shun those who don't follow our rules from the get-go, even though it's unreasonable to expect them to know the rules before the door has barely closed behind them. Is that it?

I have some thoughts on this, but I'd like to hear from a few others before I share them.

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This is identity politics and it's a form of ego defense. There's only two rules, signal to the ingroup that you're a member and to the outgroup that you're not. You can't help yourselves because you're all such unique and beautiful snowflakes.

Felix_Jones said:

This is identity politics and it's a form of ego defense. There's only two rules, signal to the ingroup that you're a member and to the outgroup that you're not. You can't help yourselves because you're all such unique and beautiful snowflakes.

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So succinctly put! Why did it never occur to me that we're all just unique and beautiful snowflakes?

midwestyankee said:

So succinctly put! Why did it never occur to me that we're all just unique and beautiful snowflakes?

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I'm not

This thread makes me feel guilty about not contributing to other people's conversations more often. I seldom post because I felt like having turned my own life into a train wreck I should not be giving advise to anyone else, lest I steer them in the wrong direction. I also certainly don't have the insight of a lot of the old pros here that have been in the lifestyle much longer than I do. Now, with the therapy I feel more sure of myself and if people don't like my posts they can piss up a rope and suck on the wet end . Can I be an outsider and still be part of the problem?

I am biased. Though sometimes I don't visit for longer stretches at a time, the bdsm board of Lit still feels like my home ground of the internets, so I am tolerant of a lot more slightly hostile posting than I might be as a newbie. Introspection is healthy though and I second the remark that kindness towards brainstorm threads would be a good thing.

Kim_Burly said:

This thread makes me feel guilty about not contributing to other people's conversations more often. I seldom post because I felt like having turned my own life into a train wreck I should not be giving advise to anyone else, lest I steer them in the wrong direction. I also certainly don't have the insight of a lot of the old pros here that have been in the lifestyle much longer than I do. Now, with the therapy I feel more sure of myself and if people don't like my posts they can piss up a rope and suck on the wet end . Can I be an outsider and still be part of the problem?

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In another non-kinky life, I like to point out to newcomers that their observations, if made fairly, are just as valuable as ones from more experienced people. If you look around, you'll see that I don't often post in threads that get into technical details on flogging or other skill-based discussions - and that's because I know that my knowledge is somewhat limited. Still, I like to participate and sometimes can find a way to contribute an observation based on the rest of my life experience.

You can - I hope you will - make worthwhile contributions here.

Allyourbase said:

I am biased. Though sometimes I don't visit for longer stretches at a time, the bdsm board of Lit still feels like my home ground of the internets, so I am tolerant of a lot more slightly hostile posting than I might be as a newbie. Introspection is healthy though and I second the remark that kindness towards brainstorm threads would be a good thing.

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This is my home on the Internets, too, and I'm glad you drop in when you're in the neighborhood.

midwestyankee said:

This is my home on the Internets, too, and I'm glad you drop in when you're in the neighborhood.

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Fet has become a good home too, but still, it feels like you guys taught me how to ride a bike (I'm Dutch, this is what matters here).

Gianbattista said:

Please excuse me bumping this thread.

It was a thread I read while lurking and when it was asked in the cafe where someone was yesterday I thought of this thread and a lot of people I had hoped to continue to read here.

This thread is one of the reasons I hung around to read more here. Not the reason I signed up, and not the reason I started posting, but certainly something that gave me confidence in a 'community' here.

I think its inevitable 'cliques' develop in any group, but good groups recognise that, and say 'we are a group in this room, but this room has a door....open it, see if it suits you'

I have made no bones about my nervousness, and how much I have appreciated patience. I often do not make much on the bdsm content threads I read, I have little to add, but i read them. Being able to interact with the community, gaining courage through the cafe threads is tremendously beneficial to me.

I'd like to add that as a lurker I felt I 'knew' some bits of some you from reading lots of your posts. If a 'committed' newbie joins and does the reading suggested and recommend by you all to newbies they might feel a little less 'distance' toward you than you do to them.

I do hope some of those who commented here would return. This thread shows tremendous communication and respect, openness and thought. I'd love to hear some people's thoughts on other subjects.

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Thank you for adding your voice here. It has a pleasure seeing you become an active part of our community. I'm glad you joined in the discussion.

Im only here for your thoughts...not your friendship...Im from Australia and if you dont like me "tough titties"

Feeling welcome here...like I found community ~ maybe?

First off, I want to say, I really appreciate this thread and the fact that so many have contributed to it in a thoughtful way. It does not bother me a bit (as someone pointed out earlier) that many of the posts were written by "regulars" or frequent posters on the BDSM board. I think that is to be expected. The quality of the engagement in the topic and willingness to be introspective is what makes me want to be here and do more than lurk. Even though I am feeling very nervous as I post this (do I have any business here? will anyone care what I have to say? am I just being redundant to this already very long thread?)

I have been reading the forum long enough to recognize the regulars - even begin to have a bit of an ear for people's sense of humor (thank you for the post about that DVS) - and I also am not bothered by the brief playful interludes in serious posts that are clearly "inside" jokes...these are normal in any "room" of people who already have relationships with one another.

I so value the resources here - the library, the sticky threads, the willingness of people to share their experiences and their questions. I am so grateful that there is a protectiveness around safety and cautioning people against activities that seem like they may not be in their best interests... I think this is especially important in the flurry of interest in BDSM generated by Shades of Grey tripe.

I am brand spanking new here. forgive the pun I think this is my 3rd or 4th post. I never thought I would post at all when I registered. I would not have considered myself a "forum" girl or someone all that interested in talking to "strangers" on line. However...I have been astounded at the kindness and generosity that I have been shown by individuals who I have PM'd (thank you Malich - and others) and have watched all of you carefully guide others who need help (I'm thinking of the confused 18 yo who posted for help last week for instance).

I do not expect to be showered with love and affection just because I showed up. And I certainly have a lot to learn. But I promise to add my voice when I think I have something to say here. I already feel like there is a safety net for me here..because this forum is a place where I can talk and think about things openly that matter to me and I do not have another place to do so. For this I am profoundly grateful.

Thank you MWY for the thread. Thank you CnC for the welcome. I love that many of you think about and reframe others' posts. I plan to be here for awhile. And while I may be a sub...and relatively new in my overt awareness of my true sub nature (I know - late to the party...I just turned 50 ~ better late than never!) and pretty nervous about joining the conversation in some ways... generally I am fearless about expressing myself..I hope to be a valued contributor here. And I look forward to getting to know y'all. I hope I haven't bored everyone to tears.
Thanks for being a "home" for me on the web.
~clynn
hugs to you all

It felt a little painful at times hashing this out when MWY first started the thread, so I'm really glad that newcomers are getting use of it, and getting the original intended message

@nurseclynn, thank you so much for adding your voice to the conversation. I'm especially gratified to see that this little thread may have contributed to your decision to de-lurk and begin an active forum life. I think you'll find that the neighborhood is every bit as enjoyable in person as it is when viewed from the outside.