Consensual non-consent (CNC)

I've been doing this BDSM thing for sometime, but I've still never quite managed to put my finger on what CNC is actually is.

The part I don't really understand is how it is different from anything else that you do with your partner(s). I talked about this with someone and was told that in essence it boils down to the pyl being able to fight back, scream and say no to things that happen and the PYL not taking it into account. The only way to stop is by safewording and up until then everything is a fair game within preset rules. That seems like an easy enough explanation, but I'm sure there's more to the topic than just that. Because to me that doesn't seem like it's all that different from BDSM in general. A lot of people use safewords, like to fight back and like to have their (soft) limits pushed or crossed. Maybe they're all doing CNC?

I think at least in part the reason I struggle understanding CNC is that with a person I get along with well enough to consider doing a CNC scene (at least based on my understanding of what it is) my go-to mode is a doormat people pleaser. In doormat mode I just say yes to everything and if I happen to say no, I don't really expect it to be taken into account anyways. There's no roleplay aspect to it ever, though. It isn't specifically negotiated either. It just...is. Although I do inform my partners about my doormat tendencies when I notice that happening so that we can talk about it and decide how to go forward - not everybody is a fan of the doormat thing.

So, what is CNC to you? How does a CNC scene differ from a "regular" scene? How do you negotiate limits for a CNC scene, or do you? Is it more of a roleplay scene than your "regular" scene? Is a scene that pushes or even crosses soft limits automatically CNC?

*subscribed*

Default BDSM: the pyl can stop things at any time by safewording or appropriate substitute.

CnC: same, but the fantasy that they want to stop things and can't is part of the thrill for at least one participant.

How do you negotiate limits for a CNC scene, or do you?

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My usual approach is "by being in a relationship with them for a long time first so I can tell the difference between feigned and actual distress, and by gradual exploration more than verbal negotiation". This is probably not going to be practical for everybody though

Bramblethorn said:

Default BDSM: the pyl can stop things at any time by safewording or appropriate substitute.

CnC: same, but the fantasy that they want to stop things and can't is part of the thrill for at least one participant.

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So basically what sets the two apart is what goes on inside the head of the participan(s), although outwardly it may look exactly the same?

Pretty often CNC is talked about as something risky that you should only do with someone you know really well and trust fully etc. From this point of view it doesn't seem at all riskier than any other BDSM scene.

Not that I try to imply that CNC categorically *has to* be riskier or raunchier than other BDSM scenes or that it's the measuring post for anything. High risk is just something that's often mentioned in conversations about CNC.

Interesting thought!

Bramblethorn said:

My usual approach is "by being in a relationship with them for a long time first so I can tell the difference between feigned and actual distress, and by gradual exploration more than verbal negotiation". This is probably not going to be practical for everybody though

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This is my preferred method of negotiating limits as well, although the length of the relationship varies I guess.

seela said:

So basically what sets the two apart is what goes on inside the head of the participan(s), although outwardly it may look exactly the same?

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More likely to involve people struggling or saying "no, stop, don't", I would've thought?

Pretty often CNC is talked about as something risky that you should only do with someone you know really well and trust fully etc. From this point of view it doesn't seem at all riskier than any other BDSM scene.

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There are a couple of issues I can think of that might be relevant.

In non-CNC play, if somebody says "stop, you're hurting me", that's my cue to stop IMMEDIATELY, apologise, and help them. In CNC, I need to be able to distinguish between a "stop" that's part of the game and one that isn't, so we need to put more work into safewords or we need to know one another well enough to recognise the difference through other cues.

If one of the players has a history of actual abuse, CNC play has the potential to stir up some pretty powerful emotions, and people need to be prepared for that. Some of my lovers are assault/abuse survivors, and I know of others who specifically seek out CNC as a way to deal with the aftermath of sexual assault - obviously there's some emotional complexity there that may require careful handling. I recall one of my partners had some very specific triggers that I needed to be aware of - "you can do X, or you can do Y, but if you do both things at once that will cause me to have a panic attack".

There is also the risk that one's partner turns out to be an actual predator who purposely ignores a real "stop", but I'm not sure whether this one is really any different to other BDSM play.

Bramblethorn said:

In non-CNC play, if somebody says "stop, you're hurting me", that's my cue to stop IMMEDIATELY, apologise, and help them. In CNC, I need to be able to distinguish between a "stop" that's part of the game and one that isn't, so we need to put more work into safewords or we need to know one another well enough to recognise the difference through other cues.

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Myself I don't think I could feel comfortable unless the safewords were absolutely clear and watertight, no matter how well I know the person. Just too risky otherwise, besides I imagine it's easier to get into the scene if you're just listening for a safeword and not worrying am I actually harming this person or not?

I'm SUPER into it and for me the difference is that I don't... actually use safewords or anything in a regular scene, I just do the plain old English thing. And then I actually tend to forget safewords in non-con scenes too because I just... am stupid?

But the biggest difference really is in your head, I think, as a sub. Because you can really let go and scream and fight and literally say "no" and beg and everything and not have it be a huge fight when you come down or do that dumbass thing where you do that and then your dom stops and then YOU get mad because you're the one who is the dumbass.

You have to have that conversation before, I mean, if you're anything like me, and figure out where your head is or you'll ruin the scene. Because generally your dom's not gonna- I don't actually know how to explain this.

In a regular scene everything is super consensual, on a surface level. You can't pretend it's not because you'll get in a bad headspace and scare your dom.

In a noncon scene you can play out rape fantasies. Fuck it. Call a spade a spade. That's the difference.

Hey Seela, long time no see! Was out of the game for a while (pregnancy and newborn are terrible aphrodisiacs I tell ya) but I still lurk from time to time and this is something I have a decent amount of personal experience with so will do my best get something coherent out!

To me CNC is when I want to have sex but I don’t want to want it. If that makes sense. To assist with this the other half physically restrains me with his body, which instinctively makes me want to fight to regain control. He also says things to inflame the situation like comments about how weak or pathetic I am while he laughs and paws at me. We fight pretty hard with hair pulling on both side, light punching and kicking and a hell of a lot of slapping!

This is different from a ‘regular’ scene in that there is no real sensuality involved. While he may kiss me I will not kiss back - in fact I’ll headbutt if I have the range of movement to. The brutality is the turn on. I also quite like that that the man that can one night kiss and touch me with such care and tenderness can the next night treat me like I mean nothing - the dichonomy between the two is intoxicating.

We don’t really negotiate limits. Both of us certainly don’t want to physically or mentally harm each other and as we both stay mentally involved with what she going on you pick up quickly from non-verbal cues if anything is off. If unexpected buttons are pushed the old “not having fun” works to pause things but no one has said that in a long time...

To me it’s no more roleplay than anything else we do. While I can and do submit I don’t consider myself to be submissive so when I do that I’d consider it roleplay, as that is a role I choose to play. Actually, I’d probably consider CNC to involve less roleplay than submitting on my part at least, as my reactions are really very genuine - most of me is fighting the situation I’m in and the other (masochistic) part is just there for the show! For the other half though I would expect it to feel more like role play. While I’d say he’d probably identify as a dominant now (rather than a top) this isn’t dominantion in the usual sense and I’d struggle to think of any other way you’d get to express yourself with this kind of force so it definitely seems to be a distinct sort of role.

The isn’t much crossing of limits with us, probably because my limit bar is set quite high while his is a bit lower. This last question is quite interesting. I tend to classify something as CNC more from the vibe of what’s happening more than any specific actions so for us I don’t think soft limits being challenged or crossed would necessarily make me label play as CNC.

I’m quite keen to hear more thoughts and experiences about CNC as it seems to be one of the more neglected (and potentially controversial) areas of BDSM. Be good see if there are any specifics I don’t know about that I could uh, borrow....

Thanks for joining everybody! Lots of food for thought.

Ropebunny said:

Hey Seela, long time no see! Was out of the game for a while (pregnancy and newborn are terrible aphrodisiacs I tell ya) but I still lurk from time to time and this is something I have a decent amount of personal experience with so will do my best get something coherent out!

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Hey, I've seen you posting here and there recently! It's great to see familiar names resurface on Lit. Congrats on the baby thing!

I once saw a take on CnC on tumblr where a woman had agreed with her partner that she would have specific lengths of time (example; "over the course of the next two months and on weekends") where she would literally not be allowed to refuse sex. I.e No matter the context or sincerity of refusals, she allowed her partner to ignore them within the allocated time slots.

It stuck in my mind because according to her one of her parents died on one of these slots and her partner decided she needed 'grief sex' which she tried to refuse. I was reading this years after that event and she claims she did ultimately need it as a temporary distraction even though her protests at the time were 100% sincere and she felt violated at the time. So she didn't consider it a bad thing.

Personally I still don't know what to think about that. Although it definitely is "CnC" taken to a logical extreme.

I've used CNC in terms of a power-exchange relationship dynamic (not for rape play). In other words, no safeword, I consent to whatever You do with me, and when I no longer agree to this, we both walk away. It took many years and lots of established trust.

To me CNC is a situation in which both partners know that in the moment sub will really want the scene to stop. But since they know it beforehand and still want to do it, it is ok not to require continuous consent during the scene. So it is a bit like "up to this point there is a safe word, use it if you need to, but when we get to doing N., there will be absolutely no way out of it for 5 min." Preferably activity is such that there is not much risk of any real harm during those 5 min.

shereallyshouldnt said:

I've used CNC in terms of a power-exchange relationship dynamic (not for rape play). In other words, no safeword, I consent to whatever You do with me, and when I no longer agree to this, we both walk away. It took many years and lots of established trust.

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This is neat because your mindset is just about the polar opposite of mine. I think that seeing stuff like this really drives home how important communication is with your partners, because these kinds of things can mean completely different things to different people.

Eli_Dreams said:

To me CNC is a situation in which both partners know that in the moment sub will really want the scene to stop. But since they know it beforehand and still want to do it, it is ok not to require continuous consent during the scene. So it is a bit like "up to this point there is a safe word, use it if you need to, but when we get to doing N., there will be absolutely no way out of it for 5 min." Preferably activity is such that there is not much risk of any real harm during those 5 min.

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I mean technically consent is still required at all times, hence the name CONSENSUAL non-consent, I guess it's about different levels of consent, the sub is agreeing for the scene to continue even when part of them wants it to stop. I'd say with this sort of play it's always wise to still have a safeword though, perhaps a secondary safeword that is a definite STOP.

Threadbare42 said:

I mean technically consent is still required at all times, hence the name CONSENSUAL non-consent.

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The name does not specify that both parts have to happen at the same time. So, as I said, TO ME it means that sub asks to be in a situation where he knows he will not be consenting to it in that moment. The timeline will be consent first, probably confirm that consent right before, non-con during, decide whether it was worth it and if you want a repeat much later.

A good example would be a post orgasm play. I can’t imagine anybody not safewording out of it, but I definitely can imagine asking for it. And asking again at the next playtime.

Bramblethorn said:

Default BDSM: the pyl can stop things at any time by safewording or appropriate substitute.

CnC: same, but the fantasy that they want to stop things and can't is part of the thrill for at least one participant.


My usual approach is "by being in a relationship with them for a long time first so I can tell the difference between feigned and actual distress, and by gradual exploration more than verbal negotiation". This is probably not going to be practical for everybody though

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I'm still very new to the lifestyle, but figured I'd throw in my two cents. To me, CNC is exactly what Bramblethorn said. The difference is that the pyl can and will fight/resist, say no, etc and the PYL knows they can disregard the "no/stop/don't/etc" as well as other cues that would typically stop play, and continue with the scene. I also imagine it wouldn't have quite the same stream of continuous check-ins as a "default BDSM" scene; the PYL knows the pyl is wholly at their mercy and most likely wants to be able to resist and/or react in ways that otherwise would stop a scene.

seela said:

...I think at least in part the reason I struggle understanding CNC is that with a person I get along with well enough to consider doing a CNC scene (at least based on my understanding of what it is) my go-to mode is a doormat people pleaser. In doormat mode I just say yes to everything and if I happen to say no, I don't really expect it to be taken into account anyways. There's no roleplay aspect to it ever, though. It isn't specifically negotiated either. It just...is. Although I do inform my partners about my doormat tendencies when I notice that happening so that we can talk about it and decide how to go forward - not everybody is a fan of the doormat thing.

So, what is CNC to you? How does a CNC scene differ from a "regular" scene? How do you negotiate limits for a CNC scene, or do you? Is it more of a roleplay scene than your "regular" scene? Is a scene that pushes or even crosses soft limits automatically CNC?

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In my youth, there were many times my voice said “no”, while my body said “Don’t stop”. It was a psychological self-protection mechanism on my part. And if he did stop, I was confused- was it something I said, lol?

I was never into BDSM, so for me it was never a “scene”, but is that an example of CNC?

For me CNC is kind of a roleplay-ee thing more than it's something about the rules.

In a normal BDSM scene, it is pretty much a given that both partners agree with what is happening. Sure, there can be thing like saying "NO!" and "Stop!" and things like that, but the submissive kind of accepts that those words are more of pleas, and less of needs. The result is - there's no need in Sub's mind to fight against the dom, if they decide not to stop. The result is - the sub is willingly (if reluctantly) taking whatever is happening, or they safeword.
The sub's reactions are genuine. There's no need for any acting. So if a dominant sees too much distress they would probably stop and check in.

Now, CNC is, as I said, more about roleplay. Roleplaying that what is happening is not consentual. It's a bit more risky, because the element of acting means you can't safely measure sub's emotions. Generally, I'd only do it with a sub to whom I trust to know her limits and safeword. Also I'd only do it with a sub who understands that fighting back doesn't mean sucker-punching me if she gets such opportunity, or clawing my eyes out
In essence, everything that's happening is the same, but the parties pretend to be in a mode distressful situations. If the sub wants something to stop, they wouldn't just take it regardless, but struggle and fight against it.

As for negotiating limits - for me, the limits basically remain the same as in normal scene. It's more about manhandling and struggling than pushing limits further. So you negotiate the limits in just the same way as for a normal scene. After all, the aim is not to have a real rape situation, nor is it about doing something that your Sub actually doesn't want to happen - but for both to have fun. And for that, limits should remain unbroken and unbound.

I’ve always seen cnc as the sub giving up the right to say no, excluding limits and she can always safeword. It doesn’t matter what her mood is or what she’s doing. I can have her anyway I wish. Examples would be waking her up at 2 am by thrusting into her, making her bend over while on the phone or telling her to meet me on her lunch break. Again this is within limits. I knew one sub that loved the idea of being taken while on the phone, but with another that was a limit.

Some people have mentioned that they fight back and to me personally I don’t see that as cnc play, but I understand why they do. I’ve also known people that see it the same as I do. I guess it ultimately just comes down to each person and their own view. I think I also take the name cnc a bit to literal to help shape my view.

There is such a thing as CNC as I enjoy such a thing. There are limits to it, which then adds the first C to the deal, and the same SS&C aspects of the scene are in place.

The difference is the players. You tend to play act somewhat and then that acting can take you further into the scene and you almost become the part you are playing. The dom can end up saying things that he wouldn't normally say in a consensual scene, but he still has the welfare of the sub in mind.

Also, the submissive can actually play the part to perfection, struggling and acting like she's being forced to participate. Sometimes she loves the burns on her wrists afterwards, because at the time, she was so into the scene that she didn't even realize how much she was struggling.

She can go into subspace faster when playing in an CNC scene, as she is able to really get into the whole aspect of a helpless victim being forced to participate. But, all of the time, she is enjoying her submission and because we have rules with this, she is never worried about our going further than we intend.

And even with this type of scene, we still have the safe words in place. But, I've found that she can sometimes allow things to go further, because she's enjoying the rough treatment. Like with the rope burns on her wrists and ankles, she said she feels pleasantly used, after one of these scenes.

CandiCame said:

This is neat because your mindset is just about the polar opposite of mine. I think that seeing stuff like this really drives home how important communication is with your partners, because these kinds of things can mean completely different things to different people.

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Maybe I'm more inclined to slavery arrangements than most, I feel like my view is really different from others.

Not_A_Nice_Daddy said:

I’ve always seen cnc as the sub giving up the right to say no, excluding limits and she can always safeword. It doesn’t matter what her mood is or what she’s doing. I can have her anyway I wish. Examples would be waking her up at 2 am by thrusting into her, making her bend over while on the phone or telling her to meet me on her lunch break. Again this is within limits. I knew one sub that loved the idea of being taken while on the phone, but with another that was a limit.

Some people have mentioned that they fight back and to me personally I don’t see that as cnc play, but I understand why they do. I’ve also known people that see it the same as I do. I guess it ultimately just comes down to each person and their own view. I think I also take the name cnc a bit to literal to help shape my view.

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I don't see it as CNC if you can safeword out of it.

shereallyshouldnt said:

I don't see it as CNC if you can safeword out of it.

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Maybe not. I get your point, but for it to be consensual, there really has to be a safe word way out, if just for safety reasons. Your partner is someone you should care about and to have no regard for their welfare, even when you're simulating a non consensual scene, is ill advised.

I'd say the submissive would be more likely to not use her safe word unless it's something that really needs attended to, like a cramp or a rope is too tight, or she can't catch her breath...something like that.

The best situation for most scenes of this type, you would know each other well enough that you both understand and accept what you're trying to accomplish with your simulation...to make it as real as possible, keeping safety in mind.

As with something like breath play or electro play, there still needs to be a safe word system and it should be adhered to by both partners. You can never assume everything is going to be perfect.

I fantasize about CNC. Its appeal to me, in part, is being “forced” to do things that some other part of me thinks I shouldn’t even though this part of me thinks I should. Sort of a fun without guilt thing, maybe.

On the other hand, I know that part of it is the thrill of safe submission.

I’m also certain that I’d love to experience it.

DVS said:

Maybe not. I get your point, but for it to be consensual, there really has to be a safe word way out, if just for safety reasons. Your partner is someone you should care about and to have no regard for their welfare, even when you're simulating a non consensual scene, is ill advised.

I'd say the submissive would be more likely to not use her safe word unless it's something that really needs attended to, like a cramp or a rope is too tight, or she can't catch her breath...something like that.

The best situation for most scenes of this type, you would know each other well enough that you both understand and accept what you're trying to accomplish with your simulation...to make it as real as possible, keeping safety in mind.

As with something like breath play or electro play, there still needs to be a safe word system and it should be adhered to by both partners. You can never assume everything is going to be perfect.

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I guess for me part of the thrill is when things are unsafe. I like breath play but I want to be choked until I pass out... at that point you're already way past safe word.

The key difference you describe is "simulating" non-consent. I actually like non consent. Not pretending. I know everyone is different and it's a highly controversial topic, so I just want to voice my opinion.