The 750 Word Project

KeithD said:

Oh, the zappers have come right back today.

Click to expand...

I had a nice long what if/how to solution to this seemingly growing problem...but then I thought...what's the point? I think it could be fixed but it would require a throttle be put in place and maybe that could be worse in ways I don't see.

I will say what the ending of my deleted post was; This seems to be a lot bigger problem than it was a decade ago. That's a social science question, I suppose.

ETA: jezzaz, I don't think you need to apologize. The contest was unique and fun, as demonstrated by the participation. It'll most likely be like all the rest of the contests, once the scores get cleaned up it'll look better...then we'll all move on to the next big crisis

jezzaz said:

I thought you guys might find this interesting.

Click to expand...

Input from nonparticipant:

I read a pretty good sample of the stories today. That was an enjoyable experience for me, so maybe I'm not quite in step with the average reader. There were a few different approaches to the problem, and I generally preferred stories that allocated their word count to characterization and story rather than sex -- but that's just me. The contest even gave me the opportunity to read complete stories by authors I might not otherwise read.

I'm not surprised by the low scores. Lit readers tend to score low on shorter stories, and these are the shortest of the short stories. What does surprise me is that some of the stories scored pretty well -- or did when I last checked -- even in LW. I need to revisit some of those stories.

There were also several first-time stories in the collection. Congratulations to those new writers for wading in.

NotWise said:

Input from nonparticipant:

I read a pretty good sample of the stories today. That was an enjoyable experience for me, so maybe I'm not quite in step with the average reader. There were a few different approaches to the problem, and I generally preferred stories that allocated their word count to characterization and story rather than sex -- but that's just me. The contest even gave me the opportunity to read complete stories by authors I might not otherwise read.

I'm not surprised by the low scores. Lit readers tend to score low on shorter stories, and these are the shortest of the short stories. What does surprise me is that some of the stories scored pretty well -- or did when I last checked -- even in LW. I need to revisit some of those stories.

There were also several first-time stories in the collection. Congratulations to those new writers for wading in.

Click to expand...

My supposition is, the folks who linked to a story via the contest main page knew more what they were getting into. The ones who linked over from the "new stories" may have been surprised unless there was something in the title/description/intro that forewarned them, etc. In this contest, the listing in the "new stories" may have done more harm than good.

jezzaz said:

I think in future, if we do something like this again, we need to work with Laurel and Manu to figure out some way to avoid that. Making other people pay for our own success isn't nice.

Click to expand...

Before I came here there were a series of writer's challenges organized by SlykWillie (if I got the name right). He passed away, and in the first few months after I posted my first story here there was a memorial event.

I think the stories in those events were posted to the Chain Stories category. That way they didn't mess with any active category hub. I assume they also posted to the New list, and if you have something as big as the 750-word event (congratulations, by the way) it could be a problem there, as well.

yukonnights said:

My supposition is, the folks who linked to a story via the contest main page knew more what they were getting into. The ones who linked over from the "new stories" may have been surprised unless there was something in the title/description/intro that forewarned them, etc. In this contest, the listing in the "new stories" may have done more harm than good.

Click to expand...

I think this supposition is right.

A lot of the stories do indicate clearly, in the title, in the short description, and/or in an author's note at the beginning of the story, that the story is part of the 750-word event. There seem to be a lot of readers who don't pay attention to any kind of warning like that.

From another non-participant:

750 words may be LIT's prose minimum but that doesn't make it a maximum. I'm reminded of New Jersey highways where a 65 mph sign is taken as the minimum. 750 words are the least LIT will swallow but are apparently rather fewer than the overwhelming majority of readers can swallow.

I propose a new category: Author's Challenges. That cat can carry the stuff authors like to play with, without tricking readers into expecting finished work.

yukonnights said:

Mine's doing okay, despite two very stupid errors on my part 1) A 'dam' bursts open...not a 'damn'. 2) nipples get 'taut' not 'taught' Two homophones very appropriately brought to my attention in a very kind way. Quite embarrassing considering it's only 750 words

Click to expand...

I honestly didn’t notice them when I read it. Don’t beat yourself up about it; I got called out recently for lay/lie...apparently I don’t know the difference. Feel like I should get a few years knocked off of my student loan debt for that oversight

NotWise said:

Before I came here there were a series of writer's challenges organized by SlykWillie (if I got the name right). He passed away, and in the first few months after I posted my first story here there was a memorial event.

I think the stories in those events were posted to the Chain Stories category. That way they didn't mess with any active category hub. I assume they also posted to the New list, and if you have something as big as the 750-word event (congratulations, by the way) it could be a problem there, as well.

Click to expand...

I posted to all five of those runnings. The initial four posted in Chain Stories, but the last one just went to the appropriate category (because there were complaints about not knowing what category you were getting into when reading them). They were all identified by a prefix (F1, F2, etc.) in the title. They all were posted with the author anonymous (with Slyk Willie keeping the master list and initially submitting them in one name--the true names only later being provided by the system) for a set time to, presumably, cut out the "voting by personality" aspect, although it eventually was discovered that those in a group within those regularly participating were sharing information and votes and anonymous praise and critical to others comments, and thus getting a leg up in the standings. Fewer authors participated in those than have posted to this 750-words exercise.

KeithD said:

They all were posted with the author anonymous (with Slyk Willie keeping the master list and initially submitting them in one name--the true names only later being provided by the system) for a set time to, presumably, cut out the "voting by personality" aspect, although it eventually was discovered that those in a group within those regularly participating were sharing information and votes and anonymous praise and critical to others comments, and thus getting a leg up in the standings. Fewer authors participated in those than have posted to this 750-words exercise.

Click to expand...

The whole construction seemed pretty complex, but it was a competition, which this writer's challenge is not.

AfterDusk said:

I honestly didn’t notice them when I read it. Don’t beat yourself up about it; I got called out recently for lay/lie...apparently I don’t know the difference. Feel like I should get a few years knocked off of my student loan debt for that oversight

Click to expand...

Maybe we could go in on a class action lawsuit? I think there are a good number of dissatisfied customers the past few years.

If I would have ran the grammar check, it might have found them. But that thing is just evil...like a Nazi on steroids and I'd probably still be arguing with it long past the entry deadline! I've got two longish ones ready to submit, but I'm loosing confidence in my self-editing skills...just maybe read over them one more time, etc, etc.

My latest check on the 750 project when I just logged on; my entry is taking the dive...my last two Valentine entries have also taken a downward turn, which based on the number of prior votes accumulated suggests there were some 1 bombs to effect them that much.

Has anyone decided to turn off voting/comments on stories?

yukonnights said:

Has anyone decided to turn off voting/comments on stories?

Click to expand...

In what I read, several authors had turned off voting. I don't know about comments. These may be people who commonly have them turned off anyway.

I know this isn't a competition, but I think writing exercises exist to bring out knew ideas and behaviors. Some of these stories are highly successful.

NotWise said:

I know this isn't a competition, but I think writing exercises exist to bring out knew ideas and behaviors. Some of these stories are highly successful.

Click to expand...

I agree 100%. That's how I approached it and that's what brought the enjoyment.

This is just a thought; In such a "contest" as this, I think it would be really helpful if a qualified panel of judges could decide which stories achieved the goal in the best way through critique. There's things like a plot arc, a beginning and closure, etc. that readers are mostly unaware of. At least the comments would be constructive then.

yukonnights said:

In such a "contest" as this, I think it would be really helpful if a qualified panel of judges could decide which stories achieved the goal in the best way through critique. There's things like a plot arc, a beginning and closure, etc. that readers are mostly unaware of. At least the comments would be constructive then.

Click to expand...

Critique is such a difficult thing. People actually take classes in critique to get it right. Reading the feedback forum, I think a lot of people get it wrong. It's easy to concentrate on details and harder lo look at form and goals

But then, what's the goal in something like this? I think it was simply to write a story in exactly 750 words. That's fairly nebulous, and so the range in the results is broad and a standard of success equally hard to pin down.

And then, where are we getting a qualifed panel of judges?

NotWise said:

Critique is such a difficult thing. People actually take classes in critique to get it right. Reading the feedback forum, I think a lot of people get it wrong. It's easy to concentrate on details and harder lo look at form and goals

But then, what's the goal in something like this? I think it was simply to write a story in exactly 750 words. That's fairly nebulous, and so the range in the results is broad and a standard of success equally hard to pin down.

And then, where are we getting a qualifed panel of judges?

Click to expand...

The exercise is to have a target, give folks the instructions on how to hit that target, then let them do there best...the goal would be to learn something about writing.

I don't think this is going to happen, just musing. Obviously the structure/guidelines would need to be clear. I don't agree that it was just to write a story in 750 words, it's implied that it should be a story. So that's the point; What is a story comprised of? Surely it's more than just words of whatever number. Lay out the criteria in a clear way, so people know where the bar is set...then turn it loose. <-- This is the beneficial part and the learning part. I think there a plenty of trained and qualified people here at Lit to come up with a panel (whether anyone of them would want to do it is doubtful). But, in my opinion it would result in a much more meaningful "contest/exercise" if it could be.

I want to thank Jezzaz for putting this together.

I don't really care what my story gets rated I had fun writing it.

But as a tip of the hat to all the other contestants, I have been 5 bombing them. I haven't gotten to all of you yet, but I am trying....

James

NotWise said:

I imagine that something like 80% of one-scene erotica stories would be in bed.

Click to expand...

Only for the un-inventive. There are always park benches, back seats, public toilets, ferris wheels, beaches, tents, display couches, interrogation rooms, office desks or lounges, and elevators.

yukonnights said:

So that's the point; What is a story comprised of? Surely it's more than just words of whatever number.

Click to expand...

No, that's really about all. You can follow a standard arc or go nonsensical, but if you call it a story, that's what it is. It can be short. "For sale or trade: unused dildo." Or shorter: "I dreamed." Or maybe just '!'.

I recall a record (No Deposit, No Return) by East Village Fug member and poet Tuli Kupferberg who read commercial and short classified adverts as though they were performance poetry. "For sale, bookcase. With books. Twenty dollars." That's almost as powerful as the Illiad, hey?

My two 750 word stories have been bombed again...

yukonnights said:

What is a story comprised of? Surely it's more than just words of whatever number.

Click to expand...

I think this is part of every course for basic writing. It can be said in several ways, but there are five (sometimes four) parts: setting, characters, conflict, plot, and theme.

A lot of Lit stories play down one or more of the components to make room for more sex. Whether or not a story has all the working parts could be a topic for tense panel discussion.

As well as a dilemma/conflict/change(not failure to change) arc, I see a story as having varied proportions of setting, plot, theme, and character development (or an intentional absence of one or two of these). I find my stories usually emphasize plot, pay attention to setting, and have some nod to theme, but play down characterization. For this exercise, I emphasized character development.

Hypoxia said:

No, that's really about all. You can follow a standard arc or go nonsensical, but if you call it a story, that's what it is. It can be short. "For sale or trade: unused dildo." Or shorter: "I dreamed." Or maybe just '!'.

I recall a record (No Deposit, No Return) by East Village Fug member and poet Tuli Kupferberg who read commercial and short classified adverts as though they were performance poetry. "For sale, bookcase. With books. Twenty dollars." That's almost as powerful as the Illiad, hey?

Click to expand...

Well, I like nonsensical, I'll give it a try; Urgent green water chevrolet Rodney soil rocking-chair blueberry trigonometry sleep Jane banana clock carpet...the end

Dayum! You're right! My next story is ready to submit (Oh nasty word! Stupid Lit rule of 750 word minimum... )

Joking aside, I get your point. I think it has more to do with pushing the boundaries to the max though. This is often done in poetry and song lyrics...often to the dull blank stare of a bored audience. I don't think the "stories" in your example would find a large audience of appreciative readers though. And there are in fact literary guidelines/rules and conventions that can be, and are taught, as the foundation of literature and writing. Surely, there's a difference between a "story" and a "statement"...or a random gathering of words.

KeithD said:

As well as a dilemma/conflict/change(not failure to change) arc, I see a story as having varied proportions of setting, plot, theme, and character development (or an intentional absence of one or two of these). I find my stories usually emphasize plot, pay attention to setting, and have some nod to theme, but play down characterization. For this exercise, I emphasized character development.

Click to expand...

I think this is a really interesting point. I've mentioned elsewhere that I feel that writing fiction has five elements, to whit:-

Premise
Plot
Characters
Dialog
World

Premise being "What is the incoming situation that we start with?" - e.g., What if an adopted child is, in fact, from a wizarding family, and he just doesn't know it?

Plot being "What happens after we set the premise? What is the resolution, and what path do we take to get there?" - E.g. he goes to Hogwarts, meets friends, and learns slowly, through a series of adventures, who he is and what his destiny is.

Characters - well, this one is fairly self explanatory. For those writers for whom everything serves the plot, the trick here is to create interesting characters who's behavior is believable when it needs to advance the plot. There's no point in creating a really interesting nun in the story, if the plot requires her to become a meglomanaic. The overcoming of basic traits there is so much harder than it needs to be. Characters have to be 3 dimensional, doubt themselves, have quirks and be relatable, otherwise they are just robots in the role. I think there is this interesting phrase 'character development' - what does that mean exactly? To me, it means that they change over time, become someone new or find a new axis to explore. But for most, it seems to mean "we learn more about who they are and why they do what they do" - that's not development as I understand it, more 'depth' than anything. But it serves for most as development and I'm not sure that's a bad thing.

Dialog - I think this is it's own area, because for me, this is the one area where so many writers fail. They write characters that are appropriate, but then talk like they there purely for exposition, talking about stuff that no one would say, purely so they can drive the story forward. Dialog has to be natural, and not just lines delivered to push a plot point. Believable dialog has interruptions, people needing to explain themselves more than once, groping for words, using inappropriate words and so on. If you aren't doing that, you make the character way less relatable.

World. For some stories, this is assumed. If you are writing a real world story, you don't need to do much world building because we all already know it. If you are writing a sci-fi story, set in 2403, then you do have to build the world, so the reader understands the rules. World building is mostly about local color and above all, consistency. That's why Star Trek does so well - the same rules are brought back again and again (except when they aren't, and the transporter needs to work over far greater distances that it used to!) It's ok be wild and outlandish in your world building, you just have to be consistent about it.


My feeling is that most authors do these different pillars in different amounts, and being really good at one can often cover the deficit in another.

For example, JK Rowling is wonderful at Premise and Plot. She's a little light in the characters and just bloody awful in dialog, but all that pales into comparison with how she is at world building, where she's better than just about anyone.

Dan Brown, a fucking _terrible_ author, is great at premise, just about acceptable with characters, and fucking awful at everything else.

All of us have our power areas and more weak areas, and it also can be affected by how you write - what your process is. I'm very plot driven, for example, and I write the plot out before I even start, so I can ensure that a) everything I create serves that plot is a somewhat believable way and b) I can remember where the hell I was if I come back to a story 6 months from now. So my stuff tends to be stronger with premise and plot (and to an extent, world building), than it is with characters.

But those who start with characters, because they like them so much, tend to be much stronger with dialog and characters and world building than they are with plot and premise.

<shrug>, it's horses for courses I think. Just my $0.4c worth (Inflation, dontcahknow).

jezzaz said:

I think this is a really interesting point. I've mentioned elsewhere that I feel that writing fiction has five elements, to whit:-

Premise
Plot
Characters
Dialog
World

Click to expand...

Elements and story arc wouldn't be the same thing. The dilemma/conflict/change or resolution are the standard ingredients given for a story arc. I've amended the change/resolution over time myself when I discuss this in workshops because I find that no change/no resolution can be the ending of a story (and the message of it) just as well.

As for elements of a story, the standard ones given are setting/plot/theme/characters, which is good enough for me.

NotWise said:

I think this is part of every course for basic writing. It can be said in several ways, but there are five (sometimes four) parts: setting, characters, conflict, plot, and theme.

A lot of Lit stories play down one or more of the components to make room for more sex. Whether or not a story has all the working parts could be a topic for tense panel discussion.

Click to expand...

KeithD said:

As well as a dilemma/conflict/change(not failure to change) arc, I see a story as having varied proportions of setting, plot, theme, and character development (or an intentional absence of one or two of these). I find my stories usually emphasize plot, pay attention to setting, and have some nod to theme, but play down characterization. For this exercise, I emphasized character development.

Click to expand...

All of this ^ So, with these elements in mind, and with instructions/requirements made clear up front in such a "contest" (that started this discussion), a very interesting and challenging "contest" could be had. But, only if it were judged by knowledgeable reviewers/judges. To take this even one step farther, the identity of the author is held back from the judges until after they make the selections. To sweeten the pot, lets also say the judges are picked by Laurel and they too remain anonymous.

It could be called: The Literotica School of Literary Erotica

Remember, I said this is a hypothetical contest...a fantasy of possibilities, with pretty obvious benefits in my opinion.

ETA: I want to thank you both for sharing your own knowledge above...on a web site this large I have no doubt there will be some who just learned something new.

jezzaz, Thank you for taking the time to write and post that!!! I hope you don't mind that I copied and saved it for future recollection. This really does strike to the heart of what I've been talking about...simply learning from those more experienced. I know it's available outside of Lit, but we have some experienced authors here too and conversations like this can really help new writers. ~