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Poetry's finer points

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Senna Jawa

Literotica Guru
Joined
May 13, 2002
Posts
3,272
I see (relatively :) ) new participants on this poetry board. Thus one more time I'll try here to open a topic along the line of the title of this thread. I didn't have too much luck on the previous occasions, be it at Literotica or elsewhere (except for the early rec.arts.poems) but some good themes were discussed here for a while now and then.

The discussions should focus on poems, there should be no abstract talking away from verses. One may view poems from outside Literotica or by our own authors.

The interesting subjects here would be -- for instance -- about

1. efficiency of words, precision, but also presentation of verbosity (as opposed to simply verbosity), entropy...;

2. the QUALITY of rhymes;

3. selections of the palette;

4. contrast, changes of tempo, ...

5. straight narration (transparent) vs. an assumed voice

6. the main road of poetry (could be the most original) vs. what I'd call exotic poetry, meaning that the goal of the text is not pure poetry (most of the exotic poetry is junk but there are admirable exception; ordinary mortals should not use exoticism as an excuse for their feeble attempts);

7. high refined culture even when and despite presenting lack of culture (e.g. a distinction between the lack of author's culture and of a character's culture);

8.9. ... etc.

Recently, cascadiabound and me started to look at a particular usage of pronoun that; see L2 of cascadiabound's poem


This discussion could be continued here, and additional poems may provide extra illustrations.
 
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And here in lies my naïveté in the nuances of poetry and a foundational understanding of how to evaluate it properly. As much as I would love to jump into the discussion I think I’ll only open my mouth and prove myself the fool.
 
todski28 said:
And herein lies my naïveté in the nuances of poetry and a foundational understanding of how to evaluate it properly. As much as I would love to jump into the discussion I think I’ll only open my mouth and prove myself the fool.
Click to expand...

There is no need to be self-conscious. As long as we stick close to the texts of the poems we'll be fine.
 
On pronouns (and not only)

In the other thread, see

Cascadia has asked:

can you say more about why "that" is dead wood? I used it to indicate a particular moment in time "that fall" as opposed to any other year or time... which was part of how I was trying to locate the poem in the theme - right place, wrong time...
​

Thus, let's focus on the first 2 lines of Cascadia's poem "H.S."

Chestnuts on sidewalks
deciduous forest ablaze that fall
[...]​

I'll make two points. The first one is standard for some critics/instructors: words _that fall_ mention that fall for the FIRST time. Many poets in many-many poems commit a similar sin -- they introduce a pronoun before the corresponding object is mentioned earlier. Many do it but it simply makes no sense. Pronoun that does not locate anything when it shows up out of blue. Unfortunately, poetry readers are used to this, and they accept it. It still doesn't make it any better.

Occasionally, (on other occasions, not here) some authors try to create a certain suspense by hmm-mysteriously talking about something still unnamed yet. Most of the time, it's still no good. (Also, despite what many assume, it's rare that suspense has any poetic value; even in prose, Kurt Vonnegut said -- forget suspense!)

*************************

In what follows let me start with a note,

Remark. There are many different (mis)understandings of poetry. I should say that when I discuss poetry, I mean what I call Tangia, i.e. poetry as arrived after twelve centuries by Du Fu and other great poets of the Tang dynasty, then by the Japanese masters of haiku, also by skalds and Bolesław Leśmian (you may add also short poems by ancient Greeks). I simply summarized their achievements and went only a little bit further, and in a consistent way.

The second point is more fundamental. The poetry's ethical commandment says:

every element of a poem has to contribute to poetry.
​

Pronouns don't smell, don't have any color, ..., they are not sensual, they are just dregs or dead dry wood. At the best, they are a poetic placebo. There are exceptions. For instance, they may provide rhythm and mood as in (another ad hoc example):

the two of them
and the two of you
and she and he and me
hee-haw hee-haw​

etc. Thus this time the pronouns contribute (for the better or worse) certain interesting sounds, something poetic is happening (hopefully), the pronouns are justified poetically (or you -- readers of this note -- provide a better example). Thus there is room in poetry for about everything, even for pronouns, but not in regular phrases in which pronouns exist only for grammatical and logical reasons -- that's for poetry not enough, because no grammar, logic, politics, good heart/soul, humor, suspense... can serve as an excuse. The same goes not only for pronouns but for EVERY element of a poem.

People take it for granted, that of course poems have to have pronouns, that it's nothing to mention, that it's ok. NOT if you're a poet.

********************************************

In this thread let's discuss only strong poems, like Huntingdon Station. In the same thread, we have another good poem,
by Lyricalli. However, pronouns are ubiquitous even in poetry, and one of them found its way to this phrase:

It's stunning, all you can share with someone
​

The initial _It's_ is a small blemish but a blemish it is. (Also, the last line of poem Thanks..., unfortunately, spoils this otherwise very nice poem; I hope that this last line will be simply omitted to make this poem clean and so much stronger, or that somehow this line will be edited when Lyricalli is stricken by a lucky idea).

Best regards to the two mentioned poets (charming poetesses) and all participants of this thread,
 
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Senna Jawa said:
In the other thread, see

Cascadia has asked:

can you say more about why "that" is dead wood? I used it to indicate a particular moment in time "that fall" as opposed to any other year or time... which was part of how I was trying to locate the poem in the theme - right place, wrong time...
​

Thus, let's focus on the first 2 lines of Cascadia's poem "H.S."

Chestnuts on sidewalks
deciduous forest ablaze that fall
[...]​

I'll make two points. The first one is standard for some critics/instructors: words _that fall_ mention that fall for the FIRST time. Many poets in many-many poems commit a similar sin -- they introduce a pronoun before the corresponding object is mentioned earlier. Many do it but it simply makes no sense. Pronoun that does not locate anything when it shows up out of blue. Unfortunately, poetry readers are used to this, and they accept it. It still doesn't make it any better.

Occasionally, (on other occasions, not here) some authors try to create a certain suspense by hmm-mysteriously talking about something still unnamed yet. Most of the time, it's still no good. (Also, despite what many assume, it's rare that suspense has any poetic value; even in prose, Kurt Vonnegut said -- forget suspense!)

*************************

In what follows let me start with a note,

Remark. There are many different (mis)understandings of poetry. I should say that when I discuss poetry, I mean what I call Tangia, i.e. poetry as arrived after twelve centuries by Du Fu and other great poets of the Tang dynasty, then by the Japanese masters of haiku, also by skalds and Bolesław Leśmian (you may add also short poems by ancient Greeks). I simply summarized their achievements and went only a little bit further, and in a consistent way.

The second point is more fundamental. The poetry's ethical commandment says:

every element of a poem has to contribute to poetry.
​

Pronouns don't smell, don't have any color, ..., they are not sensual, they are just dregs or dead dry wood. At the best, they are a poetic placebo. There are exceptions. For instance, they may provide rhythm and mood as in (another ad hoc example):

the two of them
and the two of you
and she and he and me
hee-haw hee-haw​

etc. Thus this time the pronouns contribute (for the better or worse) certain interesting sounds, something poetic is happening (hopefully), the pronouns are justified poetically (or you -- readers of this note -- provide a better example). Thus there is room in poetry for about everything, even for pronouns, but not in regular phrases in which pronouns exist only for grammatical and logical reasons -- that's for poetry not enough, because no grammar, logic, politics, good heart/soul, humor, suspense... can serve as an excuse. The same goes not only for pronouns but for EVERY element of a poem.

People take it for granted, that of course poems have to have pronouns, that it's nothing to mention, that it's ok. NOT if you're a poet.

********************************************

In this thread let's discuss only strong poems, like Huntingdon Station. In the same thread, we have another good poem,
by Lyricalli. However, pronouns are ubiquitous even in poetry, and one of them found its way to this phrase:

It's stunning, all you can share with someone
​

The initial _It's_ is a small blemish but a blemish it is. (Also, the last line of poem Thanks..., unfortunately, spoils this otherwise very nice poem; I hope that this last line will be simply omitted to make this poem clean and so much stronger, or that somehow this line will be edited when Lyricalli is stricken by a lucky idea).

Best regards to the two mentioned poets (charming poetesses) and all participants of this thread,
Click to expand...


Very concise and informative, I do wonder because some of those pro-nouns add to the understanding of what is being spoken about, it confuses me at times what to cut out and why, also how to go about it, I'm not a refined or sophisticated technical writer, but at times some things seem to click together other times you might as well be beating a concrete pillar with a Styrofoam bat
 
tods, you cut away all that doesn't add to the piece, but stay your hand at cutting out stuff that's necessary for clarity, rhythm, sound-links, narrative style/flow or whatever other purpose it serves. if you can read a line without the word/s and the poem doesn't suffer for dropping it, then it's dead wood. a really good poem may not always follow every rule precisely, but you can usually find there's a very good reason for each word being exactly where it is.

as for great poetry, well, i would say all of us here still have a long way to travel to reach that point.
 
Hi todski,

todski28 said:
pro-nouns add to the understanding of what is being spoken about
Click to expand...

But this should not serve as a pretext to have them in a poem.

what to cut out and why, also how to go about it
Click to expand...

Be it pronouns or cliches or whatever, when they don't smell, when they do not convey a convincing image, etc., then either replace them with a text which does these things within a meaningful composition or cut them out.

Surprisingly, poetry is not easy, it does take a commitment to fulfill the ethical commandment of poetry. But once you do it (and it's not that hard but be committed) then you will leave that ha ha great poetry and their believers far behind you.
 
Robert Frosts -- samples

One of the (ha ha) great house of worship of the (ha ha) great poetry,


has presented, among others, 85 poems by Robert Frost,


Certainly, this Academy attempted to make their selection ambitious. And I am impressed by every good poem.

The best Western poets (excluding anonymous folk authors) have written each a few strong poems but hardly any of them, with only a few exceptions, were consistent on a high level over many pieces. Majority mostly has written junk. In particular, in my opinion, most of Frost's poems -- by far -- are hopeless.

I want in this thread to concentrate only on good poems. Thus there is no need to stop at the first Frost's poem selected by the Academy,


It's simply awful. Thus, let's pass to the next one:


Surprise, surprise, this one is nice! Let's look at it's strong and weak points. I'll let you start, and then I will participate too.
 
Homer's secret. Also, Palatine Anthology.

While I always liked 1. Homer and 2. Palatine Anthology, I used to stress for years the old oriental poetry + skalds + haiku. I guess I did so for the sake of simplicity of an argument. But a complete poetic picture must include also the ancient Greeks. Greeks were more explicit about emotions and presenting their thinking than other parties I have mentioned. And they -- Greeks -- still were poetic. Of course, their directness and simplicity is only a plus (while not the only possible style).

A question arises -- if Greeks were so explicit, how is it that it was still true poetry? What was their secret? (After all, "talking" is really bad, it destroys poetry).
 
Senna Jawa said:
While I always liked 1. Homer and 2. Palatine Anthology, I used to stress for years the old oriental poetry + skalds + haiku. I guess I did so for the sake of simplicity of an argument. But a complete poetic picture must include also the ancient Greeks. Greeks were more explicit about emotions and presenting their thinking than other parties I have mentioned. And they -- Greeks -- still were poetic. Of course, their directness and simplicity is only a plus (while not the only possible style).

A question arises -- if Greeks were so explicit, how is it that it was still true poetry? What was their secret? (After all, "talking" is really bad, it destroys poetry).
Click to expand...

Another of those habits I fall into often, do you have an example of Greek poetry that you could put forth see if I can strain some brain c3lls and try have a discussion?
 
todski28 said:
[...] do you have an example of Greek poetry that you could put forth see if I can strain some brain c3lls and try have a discussion?
Click to expand...

I've read some Homer in English and some short Greek ancient poems (the Palatine Anthology) in Polish. Right now I am looking at:


I am not sure about the overlap of the two anthologies. More importantly, it's hard for me to adjust to the English translations of these short Greek poems -- I hope I can do it. Also, if I find the same poem translated into English and Polish I will compare the two (possibly will write my own version too :) ), granted that it is going to be interesting.

The case of Homer is more straightforward. I was hoping for others to get involved but I will write about the Homer's secret in my next post in this thread.
 
I struggle reading just the English at times Senna :D

As it stands the pieces for me have poetic elements but some of the translations seem clunky in English, some of the phrases are cumbersome to read for me. I’m sure if I spent a lot more time on them and the reading became more ingrained and natural then it would sink in faster.

Thanks for the links enough to keep me busy for a long while
 
todski28 said:
I struggle reading just the English at times
Click to expand...

The translation of the Iliad, and of The Odyssey, by Robert Fitzgerald, is very nice. It was published by Anchor Books. (I also have a collection of ancient Greek miniatures but in Polish).

My impression was that ancient Greek poets had a special poetic device which allowed them to avoid the author's philosophizing and even monologs. They invented Gods and semi-gods. This way they were able to have conversations, and these conversations with the gods were sensual.

This is a strange poetic device because this device is not universal. At least I can't suddenly talk to gods. Hm, it's not quite true. When I have Judeo-Christian God in my poems, the narrator sounds like an old Jew who is angry at (his) God. It was still a monolog in those poems but it was spoken to God hence it was a bit like a conversation.
 
GM's favorite poetic device

Greenmountaineer certainly applies several different devices but one of them is characteristic. Almost all of GM's poems which I read feature long complex sentences.

Statistically speaking, long sentences are problematic. But this is only just statistics. It's like saying that lawyers' honesty is problematic. But even I knew some lawyers who were nice. The same with poems. Some constructions can be poor statistically speaking but there can be wonderful poems which use them anyway.

It's not enough to say long complex sentences. These GM's sentences are of a special type. They involve repeatedly, within the same sentence, going off the tangent, there is an iteration of going off the tangent.

When I do it in my conversations then most of the time I lose my conversation partners. However, GM manages to keep his readers happy. We see how original GM's style is.
 
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Senna Jawa said:
Greenmountainer certainly applies several different devices but one of them is characteristic. Almost all of GM's poems which I read feature long complex sentences.

Statistically speaking, long sentences are problematic. But this is only just statistics. It's like saying that lawyers' honesty is problematic. But even I knew some lawyers who were nice. The same with poems. Some constructions can be poor statistically speaking but there can be wonderful poems which use them anyway.

It's not enough to say long complex sentences. These GM's sentences are of a special type. They involve repeatedly, within the same sentence, going off the tangent, there is an iteration of going off the tangent.

When I do it in my conversations then most of the time I lose my conversation partners. However, GM manages to keep his readers happy. We see how original GM's style is.
Click to expand...


I agree wholly with this, GM was a riddle to me when I first started reading poetry as was wicked eve and to an extent Angeline it took me a lot of reading and developing to get anywhere near a level of comprehension to understand not only the text but it he sub texts and interpersonal interpretations that occur within a well written piece.
 
Lit old-timers - A & E

todski28 said:
[...] was a riddle to me when I first started reading poetry as was wicked eve and to an extent Angeline [...]
Click to expand...

Todski, tell us more about Wicked Eve's and Angeline's poems/poetry.

Formal points:

  • Eve has started poetically at Literotica at level zero (her first poems were awful :) ). She is a rare case of someone who within a few short years made substantial progress and lifted her poetry to a high standard.
  • Angeline has more than one style. One cannot cover Angeline's poems by a single homogenous description. Whatever style it is, Angeline's educational/professional background shows in a discrete and nice way.
 
Senna Jawa said:
In the other thread, see

Cascadia has asked:

can you say more about why "that" is dead wood? I used it to indicate a particular moment in time "that fall" as opposed to any other year or time... which was part of how I was trying to locate the poem in the theme - right place, wrong time...
​

Thus, let's focus on the first 2 lines of Cascadia's poem "H.S."

Chestnuts on sidewalks
deciduous forest ablaze that fall
[...]​

I'll make two points. The first one is standard for some critics/instructors: words _that fall_ mention that fall for the FIRST time. Many poets in many-many poems commit a similar sin -- they introduce a pronoun before the corresponding object is mentioned earlier. Many do it but it simply makes no sense. Pronoun that does not locate anything when it shows up out of blue. Unfortunately, poetry readers are used to this, and they accept it. It still doesn't make it any better.

Occasionally, (on other occasions, not here) some authors try to create a certain suspense by hmm-mysteriously talking about something still unnamed yet. Most of the time, it's still no good. (Also, despite what many assume, it's rare that suspense has any poetic value; even in prose, Kurt Vonnegut said -- forget suspense!)

*************************

In what follows let me start with a note,

Remark. There are many different (mis)understandings of poetry. I should say that when I discuss poetry, I mean what I call Tangia, i.e. poetry as arrived after twelve centuries by Du Fu and other great poets of the Tang dynasty, then by the Japanese masters of haiku, also by skalds and Bolesław Leśmian (you may add also short poems by ancient Greeks). I simply summarized their achievements and went only a little bit further, and in a consistent way.

The second point is more fundamental. The poetry's ethical commandment says:

every element of a poem has to contribute to poetry.
​

Pronouns don't smell, don't have any color, ..., they are not sensual, they are just dregs or dead dry wood. At the best, they are a poetic placebo. There are exceptions. For instance, they may provide rhythm and mood as in (another ad hoc example):

the two of them
and the two of you
and she and he and me
hee-haw hee-haw​

etc. Thus this time the pronouns contribute (for the better or worse) certain interesting sounds, something poetic is happening (hopefully), the pronouns are justified poetically (or you -- readers of this note -- provide a better example). Thus there is room in poetry for about everything, even for pronouns, but not in regular phrases in which pronouns exist only for grammatical and logical reasons -- that's for poetry not enough, because no grammar, logic, politics, good heart/soul, humor, suspense... can serve as an excuse. The same goes not only for pronouns but for EVERY element of a poem.

People take it for granted, that of course poems have to have pronouns, that it's nothing to mention, that it's ok. NOT if you're a poet.

********************************************

Best regards to the two mentioned poets (charming poetesses) and all participants of this thread,
Click to expand...

SJ ~
I just now noticed this thread (I generally navigate to the poetry threads by simply adding the next challenge thread to my subscribed list, and I have not yet gotten in the habit of actually reading this board. I should change my habits. :eek:

Thank you for your comments regarding my question and my poem above.

I wonder if simply changing the offending line by removing "that fall" resolves the issue and also makes the work more concise. Something that seems desirable to me.

Chestnuts on sidewalks
deciduous forest ablaze
freight trains winding through the valley
so far below our rock wall
on belay! belay on!
fingers scrabbling for hold
stretching aching reaching


Thank you for using my poem as an example. The posts and comments here are very useful. I have been working on revising my "three men" poem this week as in reflection, it is riddled with cliches' and does not "show" the reader these men. (Link in post below)

cb
 
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regarding pronouns:
Joe is littered with pronouns, but I had felt like it was a pretty good poem when I wrote it.
Now... I wonder if it is terrible... ??? :eek:

Also... I tried a rewrite on Three Men... working on showing rather than telling.
both the original and the rewrite can be seen in the link.

fixed the above link :eek:

[and since this is not a fix bad poems thread, but a discuss finer points thread, carry on :eek:]
 
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cascadiabound said:
I wonder if simply changing the offending line by removing "that fall" resolves the issue and also makes the work more concise. Something that seems desirable to me.

Chestnuts on sidewalks
deciduous forest ablaze
freight trains winding through the valley
so far below our rock wall
on belay! belay on!
fingers scrabbling for hold
stretching aching reaching
Click to expand...

Cascadiaboiund, yes, super!

Let me comment, mostly in general, beyond your poem (and a bit ad hoc).
  • The default is: simpler/shorter is better.
  • -
  • Your present shorter version already has enough of the spirit of fall.
  • -
  • An author should induce an image without necessarily describing it
    in every detail or else one gets prose. A poet had to be brave and to allow for more than one interpretation.
  • -
  • The principle of not forcing an image/scene uniquely applies also to the meaning of the poem -- it should be induced and not given on a plate. It's amazing how even little the artistic value of a poem depends on its meaning. Often, the meaning can be drastically modified upside down, and the poem will be as good or better. :) In particular, one should never force a political statement if you're a poet.
  • -
  • At the same time an author doesn't want their poem being obscure. Poetry is not easy (not always), e.g. multiple interpretations (haiku suggestiveness) vs. obscure (un)quality.

Removing that fall seems excellent.

Regards,
 
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poem "Joe"

cascadiabound said:
regarding pronouns:
This poem is littered with pronouns, but I had felt like it was pretty good when I wrote it.
Click to expand...
You're doing it again starting your comment with a pronoun :). Does This/it mean poem "Joe"? ("Joe" has a nice friendly, chatty, storytelling quality).

Now... I wonder if it is terrible... ??? :eek:

Joe​
Click to expand...

"it", "Joe" may have a separate thread all to itself. Would you open such a new thread? (The Finer points thread is about points). Here, let me ask about word "celica", it's not in my Webster -- would it be this kind of a word? :)

Also... I tried a rewrite on this one... working on showing rather than telling.
both the original and the rewrite are in this post.

https://forum.literotica.com/showpost.php?p=90394879&postcount=12
Click to expand...

The above link is the same as the previous one (I get easily confused).

Best,
 
Senna Jawa said:
Todski, tell us more about Wicked Eve's and Angeline's poems/poetry.

Formal points:

  • Eve has started poetically at Literotica at level zero (her first poems were awful :) ). She is a rare case of someone who within a few short years made substantial progress and lifted her poetry to a high standard.
  • Angeline has more than one style. One cannot cover Angeline's poems by a single homogenous description. Whatever style it is, Angeline's educational/professional background shows in a discrete and nice way.
Click to expand...

If eve was zero I was starting in the negatives :D

Wicked Eve still does not illicit from me the same sense of brilliance she has been characterised with by the rest of the forum which I believe is a deficiency within me as a reader, because all of the poets I regard as very good point to her work as something worth admiring. However I do understand her work more than when I first arrived here,

Angeline for me writes in a narrative style that is multilayered the first read is generally a clear scenic picture crisp, sharp and concise, I assume this is what you mean when you bring up her educational and professional background.

As someone who has predominantly read prose his whole life and the bulk of that narrative fiction in a similar vein to Tolkien’s lord of the rings series to switch to poetry has been a long and painful journey of failure to understand and interpret.

Having come from poverty and severe violence, I.e my parents met when my farther rescued my mother from three men trying to rape her in a dumpster, by the time I was 8 I’d had broken ribs and seen my mother brutalised beyond comprehension to most academic persuits were actively mocked and violence was praised by the time I was 16 I had a drug induced mental break down, so all of this attempting to have and be involved in intellectual conversations and study is still new to me, as in only over the last 5 years of my life so still much to learn and think on.
 
Senna Jawa said:
"it", "Joe" may have a separate thread all to itself. Would you open such a new thread? (The Finer points thread is about points).
Click to expand...
I have opened a new thread: Link below

too many pronouns? and other common errors
Senna Jawa said:
Here, let me ask about word "celica", it's not in my Webster -- would it be this kind of a word? :)
Click to expand...

"celica" = a model of car: it was a toyota celica that I was driving those days. Mine was a a 1980 sporty blue stick shift. my first car. :)

Senna Jawa said:
The above link is the same as the previous one (I get easily confused).
Click to expand...
I fixed the duplicate link in the prior post. copying error.
 
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todski28 said:
Wicked Eve still does not illicit from me the same sense of brilliance she has been characterised with by the rest of the forum, [...]
Click to expand...

It's like with vodka and tea. Vodka is strong but GOOD tea has a true taste. While, unfortunately, readers and writers are after the so-called brilliancy, they recognize and appreciate only the brilliance in your face (which often is brilliance for its own sake). Eve at her best is like a good tea, and this is what counts in poetry the most.

Angeline for me writes in a narrative style that is multilayered the first read is generally a clear scenic picture crisp, sharp and concise, [...]
Click to expand...

Angeline's poems belong to (at least) three different domains: (i) straight lyrics, (ii) personal reminiscences (with their Jewish accents), (iii) jazz. _ (A. also wasted her time, to her terrible artistic detriment!, on several silly challenges, like writing a sonnet in 5 seconds; however, writing fast is a separate mini-topic).


[...] I assume this is what you mean when you bring up her educational and professional background.
Click to expand...

Perhaps. I, myself, meant her purely linguistic skills, the easy melodic quality of the language, fine English, ...

Having come from poverty and severe violence, I.e. my parents met when my father rescued my mother from three men trying to rape her in a dumpster, by the time I was 8 I’d had broken ribs and seen my mother brutalised beyond comprehension to most academic pursuits were actively mocked and violence was praised by the time I was 16 I had a drug induced mental break down, so all of this attempting to have and be involved in intellectual conversations and study is still new to me, as in only over the last 5 years of my life so still much to learn and think on.
Click to expand...

Your difficult, even dramatic background can serve your poetry well. This was the promise which I saw when you have presented a poem about the terrifying experience from childhood. You also occasionally expressed (in prose) some somewhat anti-intellectual sentiments. However, your poetry and prose writing style make an impression that sometimes you're trying hard to join those horrible phony intellectuals. Your language in prose and poems is often way more involved than mine, while at the same time you were classifying me as belongin' to some awful professors :) and who knows what. If you use such hm-advanced language in prose, oh, well, but in poetry -- stay away from it.

I see that you're learning, gaining experience, but so far, over the few years that I have watched you, your poetic progress as witnessed by your poems, was mostly backward. (I felt many times about addressing such issues but it'd take a more healthy atmosphere around here).

Best regards,
 
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Senna Jawa said:
One of the (ha ha) great house of worship of the (ha ha) great poetry,


has presented, among others, 85 poems by Robert Frost,

[snip]

I want in this thread to concentrate only on good poems. Thus, let's pass to the next one:


Surprise, surprise, this one is nice! Let's look at it's strong and weak points. I'll let you start, and then I will participate too.
Click to expand...

I like this moody poem. I do not generally like rhyming poems, they often seem forced to me and some of these are a bit, awkward, even though they work. in particular "leaves that blew alway" catches in my craw.

I think the second stanza is stronger than the first, especially the first 4 lines which succinctly paint a picture in this readers mind.
 
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https://learnodo-newtonic.com/robert-frost-famous-poems

Robert Lee Frost (1874 – 1963) was an American poet who is one of the most popular and critically acclaimed poets in history. He won four Pulitzer Prizes for Poetry. He remains the only poet and one of only four persons to accomplish the feat. Frost is highly regarded for his deep understanding of human nature leading to brilliant dramatic monologues or dramatic scenes in his poetry. He is known for his realistic depictions of rural life, capturing the rhythms of actual speech and depicting the human response to nature’s processes.
Click to expand...

everyone is entitled to their opinions about the poetry of others; having said that, there are solid reasons for Frost being considered one of america's greats.

personally, A Dream Pang is one of my least-favourites, as it feels a trifle forced in places to make for the sort of rhythm that sounds far more natural in many of his other writes.
 
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