Being a woman in geek culture

BSSHD said:

There are many factors deciding who someone votes for. As an example, I prefer free market economic policies, so if I was voting based primarily on the economy I might vote for them. It's not like every man in the US thought "they think rape is okay, I'll vote for those guys!"

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And that proves pretty conclusively that men don't, actually, think that rape is the worst thing a man can do to a woman. Because if you really cared that much about it, you wouldn't vote for a rape apologist, no matter what he says about the economy.

Stella_Omega said:

your article damns you.
You place a lot of trust in the integrity of the justice system. White men can usually feel that way, we find.

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Why does my race matter? Another amusing feminist tactic, tacking racism onto everything. Even though I've never actually stated my race.

Why should I believe your position? What exactly are the repercussions of my position that you find so reprehensible?

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You have no obligation to do so, I'm merely expressing my option.

I don't find it "reprehensible", I just think modern feminism a movement that takes itself far too seriously while advocating for very little that actually matters and using shoddy tactics to do so.

I'm off to have my dinner now and since we've gone back to exchanging insults and ad hominem attacks ("you're a white male trololol") I'm not going to be responding to this thread anymore.

Thanks for the reminder of why I don't take feminists seriously though!

KoPilot said:

It's at this point that I like to ask the person arguing with me:

Why should I believe your position? What exactly are the repercussions of my position that you find so reprehensible?

If the answer is "because I'm right and you're wrong", then they're a complete waste of time.

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I also often wonder what is so offensive about modern Feminism. I don't really see how anyone would find women being treated equally in all venues of life to be so bad.

BSSHD said:

Yeah, it has.

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your article damns your argument;

"But Keir Starmer QC has had to defend the CPS's record in response to criticism from the shadow attorney general, Emily Thornberry, that too many perpetrators were walking free.

CPS figures have shown that prosecutions in England and Wales for violence against women and girls have risen from around 75,000 cases in 2007/8 to 91,000 in 2011/2.

Thornberry, the Labour MP for Islington South and Finsbury, asked questions in parliament about how many rape and domestic violence cases referred to the CPS did not result in prosecutions.

The figures she obtained show that, for domestic violence, the proportion of cases where the CPS took no further action remain remarkably consistent despite an overall rise in numbers.

In 2008, 79,195 domestic violence cases were passed to the CPS but 20,467 (25.8%) resulted in no further action being taken. Four years later, in 2012, police passed on 88,202 cases, of which 22,746 end up with the CPS recommending no charges - again 25.8%.

"I am disappointed that the proportion of domestic violence cases where no action at all is taken remains stubbornly high," Thornberry said. "Given that the CPS has rightly made violence against women and girls a priority, I would have expected this proportion to fall."

She added: Thornberry said: "Some progress has been made with rape prosecutions but the fact that one in two cases are not taken up at all still seems very high.

"The CPS recently carried out a very important study of false allegations of rape and domestic violence and found they were extremely rare. This points to the sad conclusion that the vast majority of the rape and domestic violence cases that the CPS is not acting on are genuine and the perpetrators are walking free."Domestic violence cases result in more retractions more than any other offence, he explained. "[A] relatively high number of victims ... will not want to pursue the case or will retract given it's in the context of a relationship and there are children involved.

Okay, well, now that he's gone, we can get back to actually discussing feminism and geek culture without having to sit here and argue that things like rape culture and Patriarchy actually exist.

Here's another link that I think y'all might be interested in:

http://www.motherjones.com/mixed-media/2012/11/women-video-game-industry-twitter-1reasonwhy

"There are stories of being mistaken for a "real" developer's girlfriend at conferences, getting passed over by mentors in favor of male colleagues with less talent, and the tedium of working on female game characters who exist to wear sexy outfits and sleep with the badass male hero. Romana Ramzan claimed she was told that a networking event during the Game Developers Conference would be "a good place for a woman to pick up a husband."

And then there's the cold, hard question of compensation: According to an annual salary survey of about 4,000 gaming professionals by Game Developer magazine, female animators made $26,000 less than their male counterparts in 2011, on average—female programmers ($83,333) made about 10 grand less then male ones ($93,263)."

I personally believe that this is a vicious cycle. Because so few women are welcome amongst geek culture development teams, we continue to see geek culture being set up to cater to the Status Quo of one-dimensional female characters that are overtly sexualized and reduced to prizes or victims.

Bringing this back to the original topic:

I remember how creepy it was to have a fellow artist on our team draw concept of female-bodied characters and have them all pigeon-toed, clutching themselves, contorted, touching their faces, or just plain old drawn from above. I noticed that he also had considerably fewer interesting things to say about his female designs, and on a number of occasions would simply remark that X feature was hot. His male designs also differed greatly from one another (when no direction was given, whereas, his female designs were rather cookie-cutter unless another body type was specified), in terms of shape and body language. The implication was that some characters were stoic, while others were physical, and others implied a variety of lifestyles and interests and habits still. The female ones, their body language told me, were meant to be decorative first and foremost.

Thankfully, the art director at the time, a young man, told him to cut it out with the pinup stuff. He's gotten a bit better since then, but it's pretty easy to ascertain that he would prefer to draw pretty female characters than any of any other sort of consequence.

Times that by 1000, minus the art director, and you've got the entirety of the industry.

satindesire said:

I also often wonder what is so offensive about modern Feminism. I don't really see how anyone would find women being treated equally in all venues of life to be so bad.

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Yeah, and who gives a fuck if we're "annoying". Like you really need to form organizations with the sole purpose of being against that.

Like sports fans aren't orders of magnitude more annoying than feminists could possibly be.

KoPilot said:

Yeah, and who gives a fuck if we're "annoying". Like you really need to form organizations with the sole purpose of being against that.

Like sports fans aren't orders of magnitude more annoying than feminists could possibly be.

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What I find most damaging is the whole attitude of "Now there, little lady, you can vote and work outside the house, that's QUITE ENOUGH rights for you! We wouldn't want you to get ahead of yourself, would we?!" It's so demeaning and...condescending. Ugh.

BSSHD said:

Why does my race matter? Another amusing feminist tactic, tacking racism onto everything. Even though I've never actually stated my race.

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Funny how race only matters when we're trying to save brown women from their savage brown men, huh?

Not that intersectionality isn't a problem in feminism too, but at least most of us have a cursory understanding of this history of white colonialism. But it's not like violence against women skyrocketed in every place that european colonizers set foot, right?

Anyways, just had to get that off my chest.

-coughislamaphobecough-

Ok actually that should be the last of it, I promise.

BSSHD said:

I'm not going to be responding to this thread anymore.

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:applause:

KoPilot said:

Bringing this back to the original topic:

I remember how creepy it was to have a fellow artist on our team draw concept of female-bodied characters and have them all pigeon-toed, clutching themselves, contorted, touching their faces, or just plain old drawn from above. I noticed that he also had considerably fewer interesting things to say about his female designs, and on a number of occasions would simply remark that X feature was hot. His male designs also differed greatly from one another (when no direction was given, whereas, his female designs were rather cookie-cutter unless another body type was specified), in terms of shape and body language. The implication was that some characters were stoic, while others were physical, and others implied a variety of lifestyles and interests and habits still. The female ones, their body language told me, were meant to be decorative first and foremost.

Thankfully, the art director at the time, a young man, told him to cut it out with the pinup stuff. He's gotten a bit better since then, but it's pretty easy to ascertain that he would prefer to draw pretty female characters than any of any other sort of consequence.

Times that by 1000, minus the art director, and you've got the entirety of the industry.

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There have been some very funny parodies of that stuff, if I can find them.


I remember Al Capp saying that he got his first job as a newspaper cartoonist because he could "draw women"

Which he certainly could, if by "women" you expect waspwaisted, big bazoomed, gloriously thighed, plunging-decolletage, with lipstick.

KoPilot said:

Funny how race only matters when we're trying to save brown women from their savage brown men, huh?

Not that intersectionality isn't a problem in feminism too, but at least most of us have a cursory understanding of this history of white colonialism. But it's not like violence against women skyrocketed in every place that european colonizers set foot, right?

Anyways, just had to get that off my chest.

-coughislamaphobecough-

Ok actually that should be the last of it, I promise.

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White Privilege, Male Privilege and Sexism in Geek Culture go hand in hand. The majority of geeks are white males, so it's difficult if not downright impossible to untangle the threads of the various types.

I just got a really awesome PM from a really awesome guy that sent me some really interesting links that I'd like to share here as well:

http://comicsalliance.com/starfire-catwoman-sex-superheroine/

http://comicsalliance.com/mark-millar-rape-kick-ass-2/

Speaking of parodying ways women are portrayed in media:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/41225422@N00/sets/72157632676570479/

You will die laughing, I promise.

satindesire said:

Speaking of parodying ways women are portrayed in media:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/41225422@N00/sets/72157632676570479/

You will die laughing, I promise.

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Oh my goodness, I've never seen all of em! Ahh, perfect.

And yeah, Mark Millar is a fucking idiot with an ego the size of the sun. But unfortunately, the problem isn't that he's making that work, it's that he's wildly popular because of it. Self-entitled neckbeards fap to this shit.

I challenge anybody to tell me that teenage gang rape is a female power fantasy.

Anyways, here's a feel-good blog to combat the asshattery of his ilk:

http://dcwomenkickingass.tumblr.com/

It's a bit of a tangent, but I happened across this article just now and thought some of you here might be interested: "Legendary Comics Creators Dismiss Sexism Critiques, Say ‘The Comics Follow Society. They Don’t Lead.’ "

midwestyankee said:

It's a bit of a tangent, but I happened across this article just now and thought some of you here might be interested: "Legendary Comics Creators Dismiss Sexism Critiques, Say ‘The Comics Follow Society. They Don’t Lead.’ "

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I would disagree with the comic based movies right now.

midwestyankee said:

It's a bit of a tangent, but I happened across this article just now and thought some of you here might be interested: "Legendary Comics Creators Dismiss Sexism Critiques, Say ‘The Comics Follow Society. They Don’t Lead.’ "

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My god, you can just feel how thick the spooge crust is on the inside of their pants as they talk. Doesn't get much worse than listening to a bunch of old, white, straight, cis, successful guys so unabashedly justify themselves and the formulaic drivel they put out year after year. The internet isn't "killing comics", this attitude is.

Noor said:

I would disagree with the comic based movies right now.

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I haven't yet figured out why, but you're right. For some reason a lot of the superhero flicks are much more egalitarian, and even ones like Thor and Iron Man 3 were filmed from, I'd argue, the female gaze. Granted, a lot of them can't pass the bechdel test, but there's something about them that's a lot less hostile to women than the material they were inspired from.

BSSHD said:

I always read about this stuff but I've never seen it myself. In my experience, geeky guys love when they meet geeky girls, they're still somewhat of a rarity (at least compared to geeky guys). They don't really have a reason to hate on them yet they have a lot of reason to like them. I can imagine some particularly socially inept geeks perhaps coming off as creepy, but I can't imagine any just outright discriminating against girls in the geek scene.

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Not just "coming off as creepy". There are geeks, not a small number, who are creepy. Full stop. Plenty of stories out there of women being harassed at cons, and often being failed by con management.

I've seen it for myself at a scientific con I helped organise, where one of the guests of honour locked onto an attractive young female student and kept trying to start conversations about one sexual topic after another. Every time she'd deflect him politely, and he'd immediately go on to some other sexually-themed conversation-starter; it's mild compared to some of the con harassment stories out there, but more than creepy enough.

Side note #1: a lot of those "geek savagely rejected by heartless woman" stories turn out to be because she already gave him a polite refusal several times and he didn't listen.

Side note #2: a lot of guys invoke "social ineptitude" for a free pass on this stuff. Sometimes they attempt to sciencify it by calling it "autism" or "Asperger syndrome" (almost invariably self-diagnosed). Usually the subtext is "I don't have social skills because I don't value them so I haven't made the effort to learn." Some folk even take pride in that - Asperger's means the more obnoxious you are, the smarter you must be, right?

It does a disservice to the genuine autistic and Apie folk I know, who work very hard on developing strategies for social situations. It's not something that comes easy to them, but at least they're making the effort and not using those conditions as an excuse for not trying.

As for whether male privilege exists in geek circles...

Ben Barres is a biologist at Stanford University. After one seminar he got feedback from an audience member: "Ben Barres gave a great seminar today, but, then, his work is much better than his sister's." What the commenter didn't know is that Ben and Barbara Barres are the same person; Ben is a trans man who published as Barbara before transitioning, and has found people are much more respectful of Ben than they were to Barbara. His colleage Joan Roughgarden, who's a trans woman, had the reverse experience: fellow scientists were much less respectful after she transitioned.

My partner used to work helpdesk - and was good at it - but had several run-ins with customers who refused to take tech support advice from a woman. She got knocked back for jobs because recruiters felt she "wouldn't fit into their culture" - in an organisation where she had already worked and fitted in very well.

If those stories seem too anecdotal, have some links with reference to scientific studies confirming gender bias in science:

http://www.theage.com.au/national/how-the-sex-bias-prevails-20100514-v4mv.html
http://blogs.scientificamerican.com...bias-in-science-is-real-heres-why-it-matters/
http://people.mills.edu/spertus/Gender/pap/node7.html

Plenty more out there if you're willing to look for it. The "Everyday Sexism" project is a good place to start.

BSSHD said:

Raping a woman is pretty much considered to be one of the lowest things a man can do. It's hardly endorsed and accepted is it?

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A lot of people talk big on how awful rape is and then redefine "rape" almost out of existence. It's not rape if she previously consented to sex with him. In a different set of circumstances. (Or maybe she consented to sex with his buddy, close enough. Bros share everything, right?)

Or if she was a sex worker - then maybe it's "theft", ha ha!" Or if she was too drunk to refuse consent.

Or if he's a promising young man who doesn't deserve to have his life ruined by one little mistake.

Fuck, look at what happened in Steubenville and then tell us how rape is universally reviled.

BSSHD said:

As your yourself just pointed out, institutional sexism is illegal in the US. I rest my case on this one. If those companies discriminated against females they'd be fined and the people responsible fired.

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Doesn't work that way.

Let's pretend we're comparing two towns. They're very similar in size and other characteristics, with one exception: Town B has a big chemical plant nearby (with associated higher levels of certain things in the air and water) and Town A doesn't.

In Town A, about 500 people develop cancer every year. In Town B, the number's around 1000.

So Joe-Bob in Town B gets cancer, and he wants to sue the chemical plant.

Can he prove the plant caused his cancer? Not a chance. He has other risk factors in his life (everybody does) and the plant's lawyers can argue that maybe those things caused it regardless of pollution from the plant. There are 500 cancer cases a year in Town A to show that it's possible he just got unlucky.

But at the aggregate level, anybody who's passed first-year stats can look at those numbers and tell you that there is a meaningful difference between Town B, and in the absence of other explanations it's reasonable to assume that the plant is causing 500 excess cases a year.

So it is with sexism. For the most part, every hiring/promotion decision is unique and unless people are unusually blatant about it* you can't prove that specific decision was sexist. But when you look at aggregates over many decisions, it becomes clear that there are a lot of sexist decisions being made.

*which sometimes they are; Everyday Sexism has been highlighting a bunch lately.

(apologies for spamming this thread, I'll let somebody else get a word in next

KoPilot said:

Funny how race only matters when we're trying to save brown women from their savage brown men, huh?

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Oh yeah. I witnessed one conversation where a Hitchens/Dawkins fanboy dudebro started talking about nonmonogamy as a thing that brown people do that's harmful to the fabric of society. Then a poly white guy said "actually, I'm not monogamous either" and without even hesitating the dudebro attempted to high-five him.

Bramblethorn said:

(apologies for spamming this thread, I'll let somebody else get a word in next



Oh yeah. I witnessed one conversation where a Hitchens/Dawkins fanboy dudebro started talking about nonmonogamy as a thing that brown people do that's harmful to the fabric of society. Then a poly white guy said "actually, I'm not monogamous either" and without even hesitating the dudebro attempted to high-five him.

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Baby-mamas are ignorant sluts and poor people don't think about things-- but a poly white guy is choosing to make a political statement...

I've seen a lot of that lately, too.

Stella_Omega said:

Baby-mamas are ignorant sluts and poor people don't think about things-- but a poly white guy is choosing to make a political statement...

I've seen a lot of that lately, too.

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Sad to say, it wasn't even "political statement, awesome!" but more in the region of "dude, you're scoring with TWO CHICKS at once? Legend!"

Some people really shouldn't get drunk at work parties.

KoPilot said:

For some reason a lot of the superhero flicks are much more egalitarian, and even ones like Thor and Iron Man 3 were filmed from, I'd argue, the female gaze. Granted, a lot of them can't pass the bechdel test, but there's something about them that's a lot less hostile to women than the material they were inspired from.

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i'd like to hear how Thor was filmed from the female gaze (i haven't seen Iron Man 3). It's not even entirely off topic...

Bramblethorn said:

Doesn't work that way.

Let's pretend we're comparing two towns. They're very similar in size and other characteristics, with one exception: Town B has a big chemical plant nearby (with associated higher levels of certain things in the air and water) and Town A doesn't.

In Town A, about 500 people develop cancer every year. In Town B, the number's around 1000.

So Joe-Bob in Town B gets cancer, and he wants to sue the chemical plant.

Can he prove the plant caused his cancer? Not a chance. He has other risk factors in his life (everybody does) and the plant's lawyers can argue that maybe those things caused it regardless of pollution from the plant. There are 500 cancer cases a year in Town A to show that it's possible he just got unlucky.

But at the aggregate level, anybody who's passed first-year stats can look at those numbers and tell you that there is a meaningful difference between Town B, and in the absence of other explanations it's reasonable to assume that the plant is causing 500 excess cases a year.

So it is with sexism. For the most part, every hiring/promotion decision is unique and unless people are unusually blatant about it* you can't prove that specific decision was sexist. But when you look at aggregates over many decisions, it becomes clear that there are a lot of sexist decisions being made.

*which sometimes they are; Everyday Sexism has been highlighting a bunch lately.

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This is a brilliant metaphor and I would be more than happy to completely rip this off from you if you don't mind.