what makes a poem good?

It is my hobby to write poem. As per my personal perception that
1) A good poem should have a very meaningful subject.
2) It should be in puzzle form such that the content should not be directly presented, it should
be twisted.
3) Language should be not so high only 75% high.
4) It should be rhyming.
5) Lines should be little jumbled.

I think Dr. J. Evans Pritchard. Ph.D. said it best in his essay Understanding Poetry.

"If the poem's score for perfection is plotted along the horizontal of a graph, and its importance is plotted on the vertical, then calculating the total area of the poem yields the measure of its greatness."

DeepGreenEyes said:

I've always liked this quote by T.S. Eliot:

“Genuine poetry can communicate before it is understood.”

I like running across poetry that I get without my brain immediately dissecting, cataloging, elaborating (although that's fun, too). Sometimes I get it because my brain isn't meddling so much. Or I understand later what was so significant about the piece.

I have similar experiences looking at abstract art, hiking through a forest, fucking, listening to music.

Of course, occasionally a brain is a nice thing to have. I use it to understand poetry, and a lot of other things, and I'm not giving it back.

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I'm not familiar with that TS Eliot quote but I really like it. I often feel even with my own poems that I do not fully understand all I was trying to say, all the nuances, until I read it a bunch of times. A lot of what I communicate in poems comes from my subconscious, I believe, and after it's on paper and I have a chance to think about it, it makes more and more sense to me.

Angeline said:

I'm not familiar with that TS Eliot quote but I really like it. I often feel even with my own poems that I do not fully understand all I was trying to say, all the nuances, until I read it a bunch of times. A lot of what I communicate in poems comes from my subconscious, I believe, and after it's on paper and I have a chance to think about it, it makes more and more sense to me.

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Do you find that writing poetry and creating art in general can sometimes share a lot with dreaming?

When you think about a dream later, it can make much more sense.

DeepGreenEyes said:

Do you find that writing poetry and creating art in general can sometimes share a lot with dreaming?

When you think about a dream later, it can make much more sense.

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You're right: when I'm having a dream it's just this thicket or barrage of images and sensations, sometimes with a narrative, sometimes not. Almost always there is music in my dreams. And I'm just experiencing it when I'm dreaming, but later after I wake if I remember the dream I can see what it means, in a thematic sense. For example, eagleyez and I have both been having dreams about losing things and rushing around trying to find something (though I think his have been more nightmarish than mine). And when I have the dream I am feeling disturbed or irritated. And I've realized that of course I'm having these dreams (and eagleyez, too, probably) because we're packing up for this thousand mile move next week.

And yes it is very like understanding a poem later. But in both cases I think you have to be open to the message to read it.

Sometimes dreams can be vivid and enchanting.
At other quite prosaic and dull - last night I dreamed I had a flat tire.
Checked tires closely this morning - all OK.

EroticOrogeny said:

last night I dreamed I had a flat tire - I sure checked them carefully this morning before I left.

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I remember this weird discussion about dreaming from linguistics class. It was about whether or not you can say, "I am asleep and/or I am dreaming." with any certainty while asleep/dreaming. You can say, "I am awake. I am thinking." but when you're awake you can't be certain you had that dream-time experience of having a flat tire or even being aware that you had a flat tire during the diagnosable process of dreaming. I didn't really follow, but this is an overview: http://www.jstor.org/pss/2182186

last week i had a dream i was in a woods with some people, and the tops of the trees were being cut off and were crashing down around us

then this weekend, i was visiting with some friends of friends, i had never been to their home, sunday morning we sat in the spring sun on their back porch, surrounded by trees, bare trees, waiting to bud, and they were talking about cutting some of the trees down to allow more sun... kinda creeped me out...

dreams would be fun for a thread... my grandfather always used to ask if we had dreams when we stayed over

what about lucid dreaming? becoming aware you are dreaming in your dream... i practiced very hard and made it happen a few times... kept a dream journal fairly religiously one summer to help...

Palba_Noruda said:

last week i had a dream i was in a woods with some people, and the tops of the trees were being cut off and were crashing down around us

then this weekend, i was visiting with some friends of friends, i had never been to their home, sunday morning we sat in the spring sun on their back porch, surrounded by trees, bare trees, waiting to bud, and they were talking about cutting some of the trees down to allow more sun... kinda creeped me out...

dreams would be fun for a thread... my grandfather always used to ask if we had dreams when we stayed over

what about lucid dreaming? becoming aware you are dreaming in your dream... i practiced very hard and made it happen a few times... kept a dream journal fairly religiously one summer to help...

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I've had dreams where I recall thinking "I'm dreaming." Sometimes it's just an observation, kind of like I'm simultaneously the narrator of my dream and the person experiencing the dream. I've had this recurring nightmare since I was a little kid (though I have not had it recently, not for at least ten years now) that I'm running up and down city streets, looking for a place to hide. These people that I hear but can't see are chasing me and I know if they catch me, they'll kill me. (Hey, it IS a nightmare lol.) Sometimes when I've had it, I can think "I'm dreaming" and wake myself up, sometimes not. Is that lucid dreaming? I don't know.

I can also give myself a suggestion about what I want to dream about, and (not always but fairly often) I will indeed dream about my subject of choice. In the dreams though the subject doesn't necessarily work out the way I wanted it to when I suggested it to myself. If it did I'd be having a lot of great dreams about me and a young Pacino instead of something like I call my friend and ask if she wants to go to the movies and see Serpico. Still I'm pretty suggestible. I can self-hypnotize myself pretty easily, too.

Speaking of dreams, I have to throw in this quote, which is one of the most inspiring, and daunting I know:

"We are here to awaken from the illusion of our separateness."

— Thich Nhat Hanh

Angeline said:

I've had dreams where I recall thinking "I'm dreaming." Sometimes it's just an observation, kind of like I'm simultaneously the narrator of my dream and the person experiencing the dream. I've had this recurring nightmare since I was a little kid (though I have not had it recently, not for at least ten years now) that I'm running up and down city streets, looking for a place to hide. These people that I hear but can't see are chasing me and I know if they catch me, they'll kill me. (Hey, it IS a nightmare lol.) Sometimes when I've had it, I can think "I'm dreaming" and wake myself up, sometimes not. Is that lucid dreaming? I don't know.

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Yup. Text book case It's cool that it happened for you naturally (well it's too bad about having nightmares). I had to "practice." I had read a book on the topic and they said to keep a dream journal and after a while, you start noticing repeated dream themes, and then during the day, when you're awake, they say to just remind yourself that the next time you find yourself you're in a dream theme situation (for me, things like playing hockey, fishing, totem poles) remind yourself that you're probably dreaming, and then you can "wake up" in the dream. I managed it a few times over the course of a few years, but not for a long time.

I believe it's a technique therapists teach people, children especially, to deal with nightmares.

For me, the more I sleep the more I'm able to remember my dream life. I'm a long sleeper, somebody who just naturally needs a lot of sleep 8.5 hours is best If I get less for a bunch of nights in a row, I won't recall any dreams at all...

Angeline said:

I can also give myself a suggestion about what I want to dream about, and (not always but fairly often) I will indeed dream about my subject of choice. In the dreams though the subject doesn't necessarily work out the way I wanted it to when I suggested it to myself. If it did I'd be having a lot of great dreams about me and a young Pacino instead of something like I call my friend and ask if she wants to go to the movies and see Serpico. Still I'm pretty suggestible. I can self-hypnotize myself pretty easily, too.

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that's really neat... that's another technique people recommend for making lucid dreams happen... they say if you just tell yourself over and over, every night as you're falling asleep that you want to become lucid in your dreams, you can just make it happen that way... It didn't seem like it would work for me, so i did the journal thing... i don't have much trouble falling asleep usually, but it's hard for me to remember to think something like that before falling asleep...

Angeline said:

Still I'm pretty suggestible.

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Must be all that meditating, but you better watch out who you tell that to around here LOL

champagne1982 said:

Dude... do you ever refer to women as women rather than as males? Taking the time to figure out who you're talking to is the first step in communicating. It probably would make it easier to read through your post as well. Since you refer to a woman as "dude" and all those other male centred nouns and pronouns, you tend to alienate all who are in fact not men.

Just sayin'... go off and enchant yourself now.

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Seriously? We're on the internet and I'm now supposed to be accurate about who's a dude or not?

Maybe I'm not a dude. Have you considered that?

DeepGreenEyes said:

I've always liked this quote by T.S. Eliot:

“Genuine poetry can communicate before it is understood.”

I like running across poetry that I get without my brain immediately dissecting, cataloging, elaborating (although that's fun, too). Sometimes I get it because my brain isn't meddling so much. Or I understand later what was so significant about the piece.
.

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Yer. Now THAT's my language.

Ok, here’s the bottom line (once again, in my opinion)...

There’s no asking a generalized question like: ‘What constitutes a good poem?’ That’s fucking insulting to anyone wanting to write good poetry. In my opinion.

I personally feel that anyone writing a poem out under the conditions they’ve been ‘told’ as appropriate... is going to write a shitty-assed poem. Furthermore, if they write poetry as an opportunity to find greater acceptance... they’re fucked.

I recognize I’m an isolated preference and therefore not qualified to comment on the general consensus. I expressed myself as such. I also clarified myself as a shitty poet – cuz I only write it when I’m self-interested and feeling sorry for myself.

But for my money, the answer to “dudes” question was...

You want to be a good poet? Then don’t give a fuck what anyone else thinks. Period.
Express yourself. Period.
Listen to reaction but do not allow it to define you. Period.

There’s no math or meter to follow (although many will claim it’s required. That would be the difference between Hallmark... and a person wanting to make art.)

A ‘good’ poem... resonated from within you.


Sure, you should listen to what other people say and allow that to sometimes alter your approach (if it makes sense to you to do so).

I’m just arguing for you, mostly. Figure out what you’re about and write that. And don’t ask brod questions that make ‘dudes’ unable to confirm you.


I will shut up now because this dreaming thing is toally worth listening to and deserves it's own thread. (I've personally been, like, having 3hrs of sleep and then dreaming awake for the last 3weeks, and it's tripping me out. New subject!!)

Angeline-

Wait, you’re saying your dreams might be affected by the person next to you in a manner that you actually share a similar dream? That’s heavy.

Makes a ton of sense. Same concerns, etc? Awesome.

I’m loving that idea. I’m rewinding my own experiences, considering that. I never asked ‘her’ directly.

That’s interesting.


-Epm

I’m seriously fucked up lately. I don’t know what’s up. I haven’t slept for past 3hrs straight in many weeks. As far as I’m concerned, I’m awake after I’ve looked at the clock and it’s 3-4am. After that I’m conscious of all my movements (I’m the type that scatters all over the bed). But I’m dreaming things. I’m awake, but I’m asleep. It’s very odd. And it’s freaking me out...

My days aren’t exactly being obstructed by it. But it can’t be healthy.

XXplorher said:

Angeline-

Wait, you’re saying your dreams might be affected by the person next to you in a manner that you actually share a similar dream? That’s heavy.

Makes a ton of sense. Same concerns, etc? Awesome.

I’m loving that idea. I’m rewinding my own experiences, considering that. I never asked ‘her’ directly.

That’s interesting.


-Epm

I’m seriously fucked up lately. I don’t know what’s up. I haven’t slept for past 3hrs straight in many weeks. As far as I’m concerned, I’m awake after I’ve looked at the clock and it’s 3-4am. After that I’m conscious of all my movements (I’m the type that scatters all over the bed). But I’m dreaming things. I’m awake, but I’m asleep. It’s very odd. And it’s freaking me out...

My days aren’t exactly being obstructed by it. But it can’t be healthy.

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There are plenty of things that will mess your sleep up like drugs, stress, actual physiologic disorders. But the waking dream, or the seemingly waking dream(even though you're asleep) is a problem that really hasn't been dealt with since Descartes decided God will handle the devil in the dreaming/deception details.

Richard Feynman claimed he mastered lucid dreaming in college. He said that he got so good at it that his brain had to trick him into thinking he was awake so he'd let his guard down and get some rest. When I was younger I was a pretty decent lucid dreamer. It was a solid game, I could actually manifest myself in certain places with certain people, but usually it was short lived. I'd only get a kiss instead of the full on grope that I wanted, or wouldn't quite make it to the girl's house on my bike once I realized I was dreaming and turned that bike around to take advantage of the state.

I think most people have a similar couple of dreams during their life. You dream you missed a whole bunch of classes or tests just because you forgot you had that class. If you're a guy you have the dream your penis falls off. There are probably more archetypal dreams, but remembering dreams has always been an issue for people. Probably because dreaming has little to no value past being a little part of what it means to have quality sleep.

bflagsst said:

Billy Collins is kind of the anti-Dylan Thomas, he's really defending his own poetry with his first line thesis. Both are interested in the common person understanding their poetry, but Dylan wants to challenge the average Joe, seems like Billy just wants to tell them a story make them laugh or cry like a performer on stage. I like many Billy poems, but the first line only has to be great so far as it makes the reader want to continue exploring the poem, sometimes you can only accept the first line after reading the entire poem and everything falls into place.

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I don't know about the technical side of it, but I think Billy Collins is a marvellous poet.

Epmd607 said:

Probably because dreaming has little to no value past being a little part of what it means to have quality sleep.

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Oh come now, surely there is something else going on there... And because I tend to get stuck on semantics, I ask what do you mean by value?

Palba_Noruda said:

Oh come now, surely there is something else going on there... And because I tend to get stuck on semantics, I ask what do you mean by value?

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I'm a fan of the Oneirocritica(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oneirocritica) and various 20th century updates on it in Freud and Jung world. But the value of dreaming is likely not in its fortune telling and you probably can't glean a better understanding of the waking world through dream interactions. I've caught myself thinking that I've just had some revelation after waking. But when the issue's analyzed there's nothing incredibly insightful there.

XXplorher said:

Angeline-

Wait, you’re saying your dreams might be affected by the person next to you in a manner that you actually share a similar dream? That’s heavy.

Makes a ton of sense. Same concerns, etc? Awesome.

I’m loving that idea. I’m rewinding my own experiences, considering that. I never asked ‘her’ directly.

That’s interesting.


-Epm

I’m seriously fucked up lately. I don’t know what’s up. I haven’t slept for past 3hrs straight in many weeks. As far as I’m concerned, I’m awake after I’ve looked at the clock and it’s 3-4am. After that I’m conscious of all my movements (I’m the type that scatters all over the bed). But I’m dreaming things. I’m awake, but I’m asleep. It’s very odd. And it’s freaking me out...

My days aren’t exactly being obstructed by it. But it can’t be healthy.

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Well I guess I'm saying that eagleyez and I have been having similar (not the same!) dreams, lately, similar in content. I don't think that's so unusual: we live together and have for years, we're together pretty much 24-7. And we're very similar in the ways we see things and react to them. So it doesn't surprise me at at that we're having the same subconscious anxieties about our move worked out through our recent dreams.

I think it's along the lines of spouses who finish each other's sentences, that sort of thing.

Lately I've been writing a little more. I think it has to do with my impending fatherhood and other near-term events. I feel more creative. Good poems probably emerge from strong feelings or impressions left by events in your life. Last summer I spent a few days of my honeymoon in this island cottage on this private lake. At the time I didn't think about poems or feel creative about it, but now almost a year later I'm writing poems about the experience.

I don't agree with the super subjectivity of art. People feel and express very similar things, live in the same symbols and archetypes.

Epmd607 said:

Lately I've been writing a little more. I think it has to do with my impending fatherhood and other near-term events. I feel more creative. Good poems probably emerge from strong feelings or impressions left by events in your life. Last summer I spent a few days of my honeymoon in this island cottage on this private lake. At the time I didn't think about poems or feel creative about it, but now almost a year later I'm writing poems about the experience.

I don't agree with the super subjectivity of art. People feel and express very similar things, live in the same symbols and archetypes.

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It's funny how that feeling of creativity waxes and wanes, isn't it? I didn't feel like writing anything for well over a year. I did write some poetry, but it was forcing myself because I really felt like I didn't have anything to say. And then we started this move and the traveling and just the change is shaking up something inside me so the poetry is just there again. Weird, but wonderful.

I don't impart any cosmic significance to dreams, but I think they do indicate some of the stuff going on in our subconscious, albeit often obliquely. One notion I've hear is that its a part of a clearing process, cleaning up memory. Perhaps a sort of garbage collection of some sorts. In one of the Sherlock Holmes stories Doyle has him saying the mind is like a lumber room. and should only hold so much. And Richard Feynman was amazed about a biologist who had so many facts committed to memory, holding that one should instead look them up. And these days, with Wikipedia and Google, why not? But I still think we should teach arithmetic, and not just rely on calculators. If you don't have a feel for numbers, how can you be sure you didn't miss or put in a wrong number? Do they still use slide rules? I think that's a good exercise too, since you are responsible for the orders of magnitude. I've never been good at memorization, which was a key factor in my switch from chemistry to physics. (My periods as an English major, focused on poetry, was of course due to other threads of thought and emotion).

I think a good poem is one that helps me get laid...

If one is so inclined, just as a thought experiment, I suppose one could consider the act of dreaming to be damn close to the act of writing.

It seems like, in general, we tend to think of writing as assertive, purposeful actions. On the other hand, we think of dreaming, it seems, as something that happen to us, as if we are passive recipients of the dream.


Even if a person doesn't write, according to this little thought experiment, he will still talk, just as he will always dream, he will always get around other people to experience the energy of the other, to become face to face with others, to communicate with others. There are rare exceptions, but absolute hermits, I believe, are fairly rare.

Nearly all people dream, nearly all people learn some form of language and use it regularly. It seems worthwhile to consider the possibility that dreaming and writing and talking come from near places inside the self.

Whoah, I am suuuuuuper sleep deprived today. It's a tradition in the little community where I live for about half the town to try to stay awake for the weekend (with the help of caffeine only). So I'm not concentrating real well right now

SIDE NOTE: If anybody wants we can continue this conversation over in the dreams thread I started, or we can keep doing it here to keep it together, doesn't matter to me...