Need some better feedback (gay werewolf incest story)

CW: f-slur






So, I wrote 35,000 words in 13 chapters. Put some thought into my story. Posted it, and finally got my first comment:

What's with all the faggot crap on here now?

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(Thanks, anon. Yes, there's man-on-man sex in your Incest/Taboo section. I didn't put it there, I submitted it to the gay section, but the editors on this site categorize things this way. I tried to make very clear in the story descriptions that the story was all men. I tried to make my tags as clear as possible.)

At this point, this is the only comment I have on anything I've submitted here. It's really discouraging. I've started writing another story but I'm finding it difficult to keep motivated.

Anyone out there want to send this "f*ggot" some better feedback?

Chapter one here. (anon's comment is on chapter 13)

This is what I've suggested to writers (and to Laurel if, as it seems, she's decided to start putting GM incest in Incest/Taboo rather than GM) that's going to be the result in reader response of putting GM in the Incest/Taboo category. The only solution I can see is for GM writers not to post GM incest to Literotica, as this is a GM tolerant site (which is nice; a larger readership than you're likely to get elsewhere) as long as GM writers confine themselves to the small corner of the site accorded them, but it's not particularly a GM friendly site.

Unfortunately, when I asked, I was told that there's been a tidal wave of complaints about incest appearing outside that category, and everything that has incest content is getting moved there.

You're getting a double whammy on this story. GM content is either ravaged or ignored outside the GM category.

Sci-Fi&Fantasy content is largely ignored anywhere except in Sci-Fi&Fantasy, Non Human, and Erotic Horror. The readership in those categories are actually more tolerant of GM content than most ( especially when warned in advance ) but the new incest policy trumps it, even though that content is likewise tolerated in those categories.

GM Werewolf isn't my cup-o-tea, so I can't really comment directly on the story, but I thought I'd expand upon why your story ended up somewhere that the readership for it isn't likely to find it.

In addition to SRs suggestion not to post GM incest, I'll add that posting any fantasy incest right now is a crapshoot that may not be worth the effort. Until things change, any such stories are probably better off going to another site. Those two topics are so far outside the Incest readership's expectations that Lit's huge traffic advantage is more or less negated.

Non human, GM, incest...this guy hit the trifecta

Sad to say with those three mixed together I'm not sure where it could land where it won't take some heat.

I know incest/GM seem to trump and when mixed incest seems to trump GM...but it seems the nonhuman crowd is fairly accepting if they like the actual story.

RejectReality said:

Unfortunately, when I asked, I was told that there's been a tidal wave of complaints about incest appearing outside that category, and everything that has incest content is getting moved there.

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A. I doubt that there's been a tidal wave about GM incest appearing in GM. B. How does the response to that claim of reader reaction stack up to the actual GM producers complaining about their GM incest stories being thrown to the wolves in Incest? (Not personally complaining; I learned long ago what sort of GM material not to post here. But there's been a spate of complaints on the forum recently connected with GM stories in the Incest category. Those I've seen. I haven't seen a claimed "tidal wave" of GM readers complaining about encountering incest in the GM category. It's been complaints of reader treatment of GM stories appearing in the Incest category.)

I think it's far more likely in the current environment that the Web site has decided to centralize all incest stories because they might have to cut off their incest holdings altogether under outside pressure.

I specifically asked about those two categories, ( four, really ) because they're the ones being most hurt by the change, and the most open to wider genres that still fit the central theme. ( If I'm correctly interpreting your remarks about GM in the past, as I'll defer to your knowledge of the category in a nanosecond. )

It's not that those categories are generating a lot of complaints, its that virtually everything else is.

I did ask that she seriously consider the implications for those two categories, which haven't been anywhere near as involved in the storm of complaints.

I seriously doubt there's any pressure on free erotica sites to eliminate Incest. The best example is the recent reintroduction of the category at Lush.

When the category was removed, there was a drunken orgy of celebration from prominent figures, and even the use of the word was forbidden site-wide. The management, moderators, and long-time members didn't want it, and they weren't afraid to sneer at anyone who protested the change.

They still don't want it, and don't advertise it, but they reinstated it in order to remain competitive. If there were any rumblings of consequences for hosting incest content, they would have stuck to their guns, expecting their competition to have to remove the content, eliminating the competitive advantage.

Lush also has a far larger list of advertisers than Lit, and if the pressure was coming from there, they would be far more susceptible to it than Lit ever will be.

I definitely knew I was in a niche category when I wrote it. It wasn't just a random mashup though. I was sick of seeing incest fiction that insinuated underage or abusive situations (not a lot of that here, but some sites are full of it). So I used this fantasy element to get around all of that completely. I knew the result would appeal to a very specific group with overlapping interests, and I'm okay with that. I guess I naively assumed that anyone who wasn't interested would just ignore it.

As far as being lumped into the incest / taboo category, I'm actually okay with it. I prefer it over being lumped into the "gay" category as though being gay is a fetish or a monolithic category. Also, I've browsed through the profiles of people who follow me and favourite my story, and the overwhelming majority are not gay men. Many of them have also favorited straight and bi content. It seems a lot of them are reading because they like the story, regardless of the gender of the characters. So having my story in the incest section seems to be helping as far as follows /favorites /votes.

If anything, I think it would probably be best if I could be in the fantasy section like some of you suggested.

I'll probably mark my submissions more clearly in the future, but I don't blame the editors for the homophobia. I blame the homophobes.

I'm also grateful for anyone who can pm me the names of sites that my story would be better suited for.

Thanks, folks!

Well, you weren't OK enough with it not to complain on the forum about it.

RejectReality said:

I seriously doubt there's any pressure on free erotica sites to eliminate Incest. The best example is the recent reintroduction of the category at Lush.

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There's been pressure both in Amazon and Smashwords to eliminate Incest. What's happening in the marketing world can't go unnoticed elsewhere.

There's also a threat of curtailing erotica on the Net via the net neutrality business. The harder forms of erotica would be under the greatest threat.

So, if you don't see any pressure, I don't think you're paying a lot of attention.

Whatever, I don't for a minute believe a "tidal wave" of reader complaining about incest material in GM is the reason GM material is now being dropped into the Incest/Taboo category. The more common sense response if that were really the case would be to open up a GM Incest category. God knows there's a hetero category here for every little fetish.

parables said:

CW: f-slur
(anon's comment is on chapter 13)

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He waited until he got through THIRTEEN chapters to throw his useless vitriol on the table?

Is it safe to assume that there was gay sex prior to chapter 13?

That's bizarre and hilarious. What an idiot.

sr71plt said:

Well, you weren't OK enough with it not to complain on the forum about it.

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I came here to complain about the anon, and about lack of feedback.

parables said:

I came here to complain about the anon, and about lack of feedback.

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You referred to a slur, then you quoted the slur, then you alluded to the slur, then you directed readers to the slur . . .

I occasionally get that slur too. I just erase it; I don't initiate a forum post to highlight and (not) complain about it.

You noted that you had submitted it to GM and the editor had redirected it to Incest/Taboo. That's what I was committing on.

Then why isn't non-con being corralled? Those stories are still being posted to GM and S&F.

sr71plt said:

There's been pressure both in Amazon and Smashwords to eliminate Incest. What's happening in the marketing world can't go unnoticed elsewhere.

There's also a threat of curtailing erotica on the Net via the net neutrality business. The harder forms of erotica would be under the greatest threat.

So, if you don't see any pressure, I don't think you're paying a lot of attention.

Whatever, I don't for a minute believe a "tidal wave" of reader complaining about incest material in GM is the reason GM material is now being dropped into the Incest/Taboo category. The more common sense response if that were really the case would be to open up a GM Incest category. God knows there's a hetero category here for every little fetish.

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RejectReality said:

Then why isn't non-con being corralled? Those stories are still being posted to GM and S&F.

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I don't think I've ever claimed the submissions here were treated consistently.

Beyond that, I don't know what you are getting at. The marketplace marked rape erotica as "no go" a long time ago and nonconsent is too squishy to pin down. In November Smashwords required all of its publishers to go through their erotica holdings and confirm, by work, that there was no incest there, based on a very broad idea of what incest was (certainly not medical). That was reported here. My publisher had to claim having researched more than 100 published works of mine. When they did this it was a "new thing" just like Laurel overriding requests to put GM incest in the GM category is.

The Rape purge hunt was a long-ago thing. And rape supposed isn't permitted at Literotica at all, so I don't know why you bring that up.

What is a fact is that Laurel is moving GM Incest to Incest/Taboo and into the fangs of the wolves even when the contributing author is marking it for GM. That's the issue here. She isn't moving GM rape because it supposedly isn't accepted here at all, and nonconsent is too subjective to even discuss in this context.

But isn't this a question for your friend Laurel, though, rather than me?

Your premise is that it's being forced by pressure from outside and fear of government policy, rather than the reason provided by the person doing it.

Since you're going to accuse me of not paying attention, have you've noticed some rather extensive coverage of sexual misconduct and violence in the news lately?

If Incest is being moved due to that sort of outside pressure, Non-Con should be right there with it — especially now.

It isn't.

Well, no. The correlation seems to be some just sort of excuse you're making up for Literotica's policy changes.

This is about erotica stories and the marketplace--and the possibilities of changes in the net neutrality issue changes.

But, tell you what. I've recently written some stories that deal with the current sexual abuse issues running in the news. If I see any correlation with those issues in the marketplace or here on Literotica with GM incest placement or the very real recent marketplace suppression of incest, I'll let you know.

The marketplace isn't the same animal as free sites. The entities that are pressuring Smashwords and the like aren't remotely connected to a site such as this. Does any story posted here reflect upon Amazon or Barnes and Noble in any way? No, and that's why they couldn't care less. Smashwords distributes stories to those sites, and thus they're bringing pressure to bear in order to lessen their own need to police their marketplaces.

I'm saying that Non-Con would be just as risky — if not more in the current environment — to maintain as incest, where it comes to hot-button topics that could trigger governmental scrutiny or gateway provider action.

I'm not making excuses. I openly said I think the policy is unwise with respect to the categories in question, and said so directly to Laurel as well. I also relayed the exact reason she provided for said policy change, which is a large number of reader complaints about incest appearing outside the category.

You're the one who has decided to discard the direct answer to the question and create your own narrative. I'm questioning that narrative.

......

Well, this thread didn't go the way I expected.

This morning I was angry and disappointed because I'd finally received my first comment and it was nasty. I was hoping that somebody out there might be motivated to give some proper feedback.

I didn't expect to start an argument about site politics.

And I still have no feedback.

I probably should have slept on it and approached the subject differently. In the meantime, I would still love to get some comments. If there's anyone out there interested in actually reading the story, instead of just arguing about it.

parables said:

CW: f-slur

So, I wrote 35,000 words in 13 chapters. Put some thought into my story. Posted it, and finally got my first comment:

(Thanks, anon. Yes, there's man-on-man sex in your Incest/Taboo section. I didn't put it there, I submitted it to the gay section, but the editors on this site categorize things this way. I tried to make very clear in the story descriptions that the story was all men. I tried to make my tags as clear as possible.)

At this point, this is the only comment I have on anything I've submitted here. It's really discouraging. I've started writing another story but I'm finding it difficult to keep motivated.

Anyone out there want to send this "f*ggot" some better feedback?

Chapter one here. (anon's comment is on chapter 13)

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Hey there, sorry you ran afoul of the categorisation system and the homophobes.

I don't have time to do the whole series, but I took a look at Chapter 1. I think it's quite well written, and I don't have any major criticisms on the craft or story-writing side. A couple of very minor glitches that might have been caught by an editor or beta (e.g. "dizzingly") but nothing serious. Readers who are into GM werewolf pseudo-incest themes will probably love it.

Your ratings and comments are going to reflect the fact that most of the readers in Incest/Taboo are not into GM or werewolves, and that the incest in the story may not be incest-y enough for their liking, given that "father" and "son" seem to be metaphorical relationships rather than literal.

At this point, there's probably not much you can do about that, though I wholeheartedly endorse deleting comments of the type you mention. Hopefully over time you'll draw the attention of readers who are into that sort of stuff.

If you were to do it over, and you wanted to get it into GM or Nonhuman rather than I/T, you might consider whether it's possible to describe these relationships in ways that don't get it classified into "incest" (I dunno, change "father" and "son" to "alpha" and "beta" or something) but I don't know how well that fits your vision. Like other posters suggested, you might also look for other sites with friendlier policies.

One technical issue: you've named your stories "New World Beasts Pt. 01 Ch. 01" through "New World Beasts Pt. 01 Ch. 13" and this shows up as a neatly linked series on your submissions page.

However, if you do start submitting something like "New World Beasts Pt. 02 Ch. 01" this may cause some hiccups. From what I've seen in other stories, the automated chaptering logic doesn't cope well with multi-level chaptering styles and may end up creating multiple series. For example, the series "A Match Made" on AVixenLiterally's author page is listed three times, once as "Book", once as "Book 02", and once as "Book 03".

It's not just GM stories that Lit is putting into incest whether that is best category or not. I submitted a story where a brother in law and a sister in law had sex and it got put there. I suppose it can be considered taboo but it isn't much worse than someone sleeping with their spouse's best friend.

And while I won't pretend to know the motivation I can't see that if there is going to be a future purge of all incest stories that something like my story would have moralists up in arms. If that's so Lit may have to get rid of LW and only allow married couple sex stories.

Righty right, time to drop my two cent on the counter top.

Feedback is pretty hard to get, mainly good feedback outside of a harem of loyal beta readers, lest that is what I am discovering.

The one story I posted on here was an incest story and I got a whole range of comments from like to really awful ones. While I don't want someone to blow smoke up my ass and tell me I'm great, I don't want someone to tear me down just because they didn't like my story.

Now this is a GM, Nonhuman Incest story... werewolf one at that. My advice is to hit up the furry community as they tend to love this type of stuff. I'll PM a site that seems to be active.

Thank you Brambelthorn for the thoughtful feedback! It felt good to get some thoughts from someone who took the time to read it.

I'm really getting the feeling that I need to look around for a place better suited to the story. If I write something more mainstream in the future I know I'll be able to put it here.

Just spoke with Laurel, and she's had a change of heart where GM incest and non-con are concerned.

I'm still working on her about Sci-Fi&Fantasy and Non Human

From now on, GM stories containing incest will be placed in the GM category, if that is what the author chooses. They can, of course, choose to go with incest, though that would be extremely unwise. The stories will have the incest tag added, if it is not already present, as well as a disclaimer from the editor at the beginning stating that the story has incest content, if not already added by the author.

This way, there's always a warning for the reader straight out of the gate, which should calm any complaints that might have been coming from the GM category, which were probably few.

Likewise, if you had selected GM as your category and the story was moved to Incest, you can now submit an edit to request the story be moved to your originally selected category of GM.

If you've never gone through the editing process before, here's a post of mine that describes it in detail:

http://forum.literotica.com/showpost.php?p=88469238&postcount=2

This decision should be incredibly beneficial to authors writing GM incest.

RejectReality said:

Just spoke with Laurel, and she's had a change of heart where GM incest and non-con are concerned.

I'm still working on her about Sci-Fi&Fantasy and Non Human

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Yes, I'd have thought almost by definition Sci-Fi & Fantasy and Non Human are going to be categories where a bunch of other content shows up. Stories in these genres tend to be multi-chapter, and a writer is more likely to let their content wander about more - whereas non-con and incest are singular kinks with a VERY singularly focussed audience.

I'm working on a big multi-chapter thing where incest will get a major airing, but there'll be a chapter with anal, one of the leading ladies has a cum fetish, there'll be a bit of male and male masturbation (to feed said fetish), there's plenty of hetero, plus witches. And it's set deep in the past. To dump it into I&T just because it has some would be unsatisfactory for everyone, I reckon. I certainly don't think I&T should auto-trump everything else.