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"To keep the review thread clean..."

"This poet makes a lot of comments on others' work, which raises a point. There have been other postings in the last few days by poets who have some talent and receive a fair amount of comments on their work, but who, as near as I can tell, don't comment on others' work. I agree with Tzara on this. I'm reluctant to comment on those poets' work, either directly or here."

I quote greenmountaineer on the NPR today.

I see the Puritan Police are out in force again ;) The ones who never think that Time might be an enemy to some posters here, that Time might give them precious little space to write, let alone read, that that little Time might be better spent writing than reading, that that little Time spent writing might (mirabile dictu) make a poem which will not be read or commented on because the writer did not spend precious time commenting on other poems.

He or she who knows the private circumstances of poets posting here is allowed to cast the first stone, otherwise judge the poet by the poems and not by the number of comments left.

OK, that's wasted enough precious Time when I was wrestling with a poem that doesn't know when it's beaten.
 
Tsotha has just given me a gift that any poet should really appreciate for the worth it is, it is the gold that helps build you into a better writer, it is
that of the view of a reader forthright and as subjective as possible. he has commented on many of my poems some old, some new and my respect for him, who he is and what he offers has always been of the highest order and I just wanted to say thankyou for the gift of your insight into my writing. it is appreciated.
 
fridayam said:
"This poet makes a lot of comments on others' work, which raises a point. There have been other postings in the last few days by poets who have some talent and receive a fair amount of comments on their work, but who, as near as I can tell, don't comment on others' work. I agree with Tzara on this. I'm reluctant to comment on those poets' work, either directly or here."

I quote greenmountaineer on the NPR today.

I see the Puritan Police are out in force again ;) The ones who never think that Time might be an enemy to some posters here, that Time might give them precious little space to write, let alone read, that that little Time might be better spent writing than reading, that that little Time spent writing might (mirabile dictu) make a poem which will not be read or commented on because the writer did not spend precious time commenting on other poems.

He or she who knows the private circumstances of poets posting here is allowed to cast the first stone, otherwise judge the poet by the poems and not by the number of comments left.

OK, that's wasted enough precious Time when I was wrestling with a poem that doesn't know when it's beaten.
Click to expand...
You are absolutely correct, fridayam. Time gives me little space to write, let alone read, and my time might be happiest spent (I won't say "best spent," as that seems presumptuous) working on my own poems.

Certainly, commenting on your poems (which are, at least those I've read, of very good quality, and usually quite interesting) takes time away from my own work, and if there is no prospect of reciprocation of effort (and here I am not talking about me personally, but about anyone who writes poems here), why should I consider ever commenting on yours, or even reading them?

If you're happy with just getting comments from people who don't themselves post poems, or people who don't care that they get reciprocal comments, why bother with that response? Frankly, you seem to be saying something like "Please comment on my poem, though I won't comment on yours because I'm busy (and your poem could not possibly be as important as mine)."

{End of Main Comment}

Hi, mods. I think this discussion should be moved to that subforum, maybe to a thread titled something like "The Ethics of Comments." That's too serious, but kind of what I have in mind. I'll trust your judgment on that.

Ideally, you will keep gm's original comment, fridayam's response, and my response to him in this thread and link to a thread in the other forum where you (again, ideally) duplicate those three posts and let us all discuss it.

Because I know you all are just dying for the opportunity to spend your day wanking all that stuff around.

Or you could just leave everything where it is and hope for the best.
 
Cleardaynow said:
A plea for comments – and for forbearance for those that do not want to leave them.

It is possible that those that have been on the site for a long time and are active within the thread community may forget how it feels for people when we first enter poems into Literotica.

We have considerable trepidation but, as with people first entering stories, at the back (or even front) of our minds is the fond fantasy that everyone will rush up and say it is the best thing that they have ever seen and ought to be published outside – and of course our poems are not that good.

The best explanation I can make of poetry is that it is an attempt to get across something that matters in life – whether it is say about death or just the feel of wind on the face – painted with a feather or a sledgehammer (OK I am mixing my metaphors but fuck it). Eliot wrote Ash Wednesday (fairly high on the enigmatic scale) – then edited and published an anthology of Kipling’s verse (which Eliot adored). So there is a pretty broad spectrum of what good poetry can be.

It really, really helps for us and means a great deal when we receive comments – particularly if they are not abusive or patronising. Not always easy. I for one have been stymied facing a person’s first poem to find anything positive or constructive to say.

I was first attracted to Literotica by the erotic side, entered a couple of stories and intended and have the first drafts or story lines for several more. Then I entered a poem and was hooked on this hub. It was the kindness that attracted me most. It was not just that you do not get comments like ‘I hope you eat shit and die’ (now deleted by some editor on the site) or the actually nastier ‘another old man with the ambition to write and of course it has to be about being a sick fuck’. Some of you may remember LesseloovesPeter (she wrote three utterly, utterly brilliant short stories) who, if she did not either like or understand the new person’s poem, would leave some highly gnomic and enigmatic comment. She left a highly enigmatic and gnomic comment on my first poem – and I was touched and thrilled to bits.

I found I valued most the comments that were most informative.

From reading the poems, comments and skimming the threads, it is clear there is a broad range of people on the poetry hub including the articulate and sociable, the barely house trained and the acutely shy. I agree with Oggbashan that not everybody wants to or finds it easy to leave comments. Indeed, there something a bit distasteful about our only leaving comments in order that other should leave comments on ours. If I saw that a writer was being intentionally unkind on the site I believe I would avoid leaving comments – otherwise, if I can see any worth in a poem, I am happy to leave a comment.

Plea to Angeline. If you can, please leave this in this thread. Primarily it is about people viewing the new poems so I do believe that this is the right thread for it.

Finally, my apologies if this goes pear shaped (it is my first entry on the threads) or comes across badly.
Click to expand...

very good to see you here clearday now, welcome to the boards, your thoughts, opinions and poetry are welcome by me, diversity adds to the talent and also the varying opinions help shed light on how our writes are received. I understand your trepidation to enter as I had my own entry about 14 months ago. Comments are the only thing that kept me trying to write, if Ashesh9 and Erectus sadly not posted here in a while hadn't of encouraged me I would have left a long time ago. then the other members of this forum started commenting on my work which help facilitate the idea that poetry was for me to work on, so welcome and hope to see you participate in some threads and share your ideas and thoughts,
 
Oh and thankyou Harry for your thoughts on my poem opposites, two opposing thoughts on a poem titled opposites, how apt :D
 
Many thanks to theflowmaster's for including me in his favorite author list.
 
Thank you very much, Cleardaynow, for your comments on my poem "We're Not Human Anymore".
As for your question concerning "Edeltraud", it is, I think, in the nature of a muse to be mute and in that of a poet to speak out.
:D
 
Thanks Todski and Butters and Harry and Twelve and UnderYourSpell and Ashesh9 and Cleardaynow and Angeline and Syndra Lynn and Anonymous and EVERYONE ELSE for comments and favorites and for putting up with that thankless asshole Magnetron who just finally got around to seeing what the heck this thread was all about.

I would probably be more alert during the daytime if I didn't have so many house cats and farm cats and unwanted cats being dumped off by their owners onto my property and baby kittens in need of bottlefeeding all keeping me up in the middle of the night with their shenanigans.
 
My thanks to Tess for recommending "Najah's Nightmare" and to Remec, tod, ash, Cleardaynow, pelegrino, and OpenField for their comments.
 
Many thanks to Angeline for the comments on and recommendation of my poem "Nasal Reflex Neurosis".
It is a true story, somehow covered up by Freud and his disciples.
I am trying currently to sort out my tag system on "Pelegrino's Perpetual Construction" thread, but it's a hell of a job. All items are parts of bigger (incomplete as yet) stories which will never be published in their entirety in Literotica as this would be taking a long time. I hope to publish them in a personal web page some day.
You are very right, most of them are meant to be set to music (hence the ever present rhyming) and I'm working non stop with manuscripts, sequencers and what not, but… I'm only one single worker on this and a full time musician trying to earn a living as well.
:)
 
Thank you to angeline, oldbear63, demure101, magnetron, open field, greenmountaineer, and ashesh9 for their comments, thoughts and insights on mybpoem
Accounting and building
The detail of your comments is awesome and you have my appreciation for the time you took to comment

When I have a bit more time I'll comment further on some of the things mentioned :)
 
Tristesse2 said:
Seconded with feeling - [exits left] :heart:
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Tess and Friday-

You are two awesome, kind poets and I appreciate you both so much :)

I will make this short, good news, some of you know about my accident and my neck and back, et al, but believe it or not, SC has an actual vocational rehab program where I have gone to counseling and training and they told me last week that they will sponsor me to get my OSHA certification in construction safety. I will be going back to school possibly summer or fall and will be back to work soon. woohoo! happy people make better poets? Or is it the opposite....

:rose:
 
I was reading through some older posts and the discussion of comments on works by poets who don't seem to reciprocate..


I haven't felt much like writing for a while and I hope this isn't held against me because I love reading the poems here and I comment when I feel like it. If anyone doesn't want me to, just let me know! It won't hurt my wee feelin's.

OH! and 1201, you were upset with me a while back about deleting you from some poets list...well, I know what happened, if you even care, but as I was reading poems one night recently, I clicked on " add author" to faves and then I realized, if that person is already on your list, clicking it again removes them.

I must have done that accidentally, reading without my glasses. You are without a doubt one of my most ever favorite poets and I never would delete you on purpose.

:rose:
 
Thank you, todski28, for your comments on my poem "Nasal Reflex Neurosis" which are appreciated and taken all on board. Both you and Angeline help me see it from the reader's point of view and I can see the points raised concerning rhythm and rhyme. They need more control on my part, and I try to do that with the melodies that I attach to them.
 
Maria2394 said:
Tess and Friday-

You are two awesome, kind poets and I appreciate you both so much :)

I will make this short, good news, some of you know about my accident and my neck and back, et al, but believe it or not, SC has an actual vocational rehab program where I have gone to counseling and training and they told me last week that they will sponsor me to get my OSHA certification in construction safety. I will be going back to school possibly summer or fall and will be back to work soon. woohoo! happy people make better poets? Or is it the opposite....

:rose:
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Oh that is such wonderful news darling :)

Happy people make happy people--that is all that is important. I know you will be brilliant at whatever you set your hand to :rose:
 
My thanks to Angeline for recommending "Fire in Eyes" and for her comment as well as those of Epmd607, OldBear, and OpenField.

Epmd607: Dorothy Parker? I hadn't thought about that, but you're right. There is some Parker sass in the poem, although I don't think you'll ever see my stuff in The New Yorker.
 
emp says:

Poets of short poems have advantage over folks who want to really come out with technique and have a bunch to say and all the lines past 20 to say it. It's difficult sustaining the interest of dear reader in those 40+ liners, who remembers the middle-portion of Howl or the qualities of "The Mariner, so strange and unhuman"? While I know Fire and Ice and 1201's Undo Ki by heart.

I gave both of these poems 5/5 because they made the effort to say something, they fashioned quality poems(though I would criticize each poet for shrimping on poetic technique and relying too heavily on tools of prose). The slight

unquote

really, we have been down that road before
2 points
1. no comment on above said poem? unless you are the anon.
2. you know my view on the on-off bullshit, and there is no reason for a short burst of feet in a short "poem".
 
1201:

"Prosody doesn't 'truly' exist in written language therefore there is no real distinction between prose and poetry."

Okay, I heard you, and I don't care.
 
Epmd607 said:
1201:

"Prosody doesn't 'truly' exist in written language therefore there is no real distinction between prose and poetry."

Okay, I heard you, and I don't care.
Click to expand...

Which written language are you talking about?
Ok, define "prosody" in spoken English, if you please.
Prosody certainly exists in written classical Greek poetry.
(If you could read it in the original, that is).
 
pelegrino said:
Which written language you talking about?
Ok, define "prosody" in spoken English, if you please.
Prosody certainly exists in written classical Greek poetry.
(If you could read it in the original, that is).
Click to expand...

It's my position, and seemingly the view of every poet who isn't 1201, that the spoken and written english language do have the elements of prosody that make metrical feet legible to the author of beowulf same as the authors on new poems page at literotica.

The reason poetry exists is probably because it's easier remembering language with rhythm ordered by stress patterns. It only takes a moderate study of poetry to see how well English grammar translates to the page to the reader. There are openings for interpretation when reading, but it's not some uncanny valley that 1201 and possibly Derrida would have you believe. Every grammar favors certain stress patterns in spoken language which can be manipulated on the page through simple act of being well read one can access such information almost immediately.

To respond to Tsotha in brief: half, internal, full rhyme, assonance, alliteration etc. There's a number of tools besides syllable and stress patterns that make poetry something different than prose. By neglecting the poetic tools and techniques we lose special traditions over time that we ought to preserve and expand on through our own creativity and care.
 
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twelveoone said:
there is no reason for a short burst of feet in a short "poem".
Click to expand...

What does that mean?

Epmd607 said:
It's my position, and seemingly the view of every poet who isn't 1201, that the spoken and written english language do have the elements of prosody that make metrical feet legible to the author of beowulf same as the authors on new poems page at literotica.

The reason poetry exists is probably because it's easier remembering language with rhythm ordered by stress patterns. It only takes a moderate study of poetry to see how well English grammar translates to the page to the reader. There are openings for interpretation when reading, but it's not some uncanny valley that 1201 and possibly Derrida would have you believe. Every grammar favors certain stress patterns in spoken language which can be manipulated on the page through simple act of being well read one can access such information almost immediately.
Click to expand...

Oh, we were discussing this over in the Metre thread. Calling it an uncanny valley might be going too far, but in my opinion it is unlikely that a reader will be capable of reading something exactly as the writer intended it to be read, unless some notation is sent along with the poem — like musicians do, when they want others to sing/play their songs.

As you say: every grammar favors certain stress patterns. Further, there obviously isn't an infinite number of ways to read something, and some ways are more likely than others simply because they "roll better" on the tongue. The poet (by writing in a deliberate manner) can try to make a certain way more appealing.

Nonetheless, there will be a lot of ways to read something. Even a single line can be read in multiple ways — give it to an actor, watch him go crazy with it. As for "the well read can access such information almost immediately"? There are people here who (as far as I can tell) are well read and who don't know what metre is. :)

Epmd607 said:
I gave both of these poems 5/5 because they made the effort to say something, they fashioned quality poems(though I would criticize each poet for shrimping on poetic technique and relying too heavily on tools of prose). The slight advantage probably goes to OpenField because there is genuine studied technique present and Cleardaynow seems to rely more on habitual practice to get them through their routine. Both commendable qualities that I wish I had.
Click to expand...

Tsotha said:
Can you elaborate, please? I have trouble identifying these things you mention.
Click to expand...

Epmd607 said:
To respond to Tsotha in brief: half, internal, full rhyme, assonance, alliteration etc. There's a number of tools besides syllable and stress patterns that make poetry something different than prose. By neglecting the poetic tools and techniques we lose special traditions over time that we ought to preserve and expand on through our own creativity and care.
Click to expand...

Thank you for answering. I asked because I couldn't identify such tools in the poems by OpenField and Cleardaynow. All I could see was:

Three Tanka for Yosano Akiko
byOpenField©

Poetry is the sculpture of real feelings.
—Yosano Akiko

i
Fresh from her bath,
wet as a willow sapling
in clean spring rain,
she flushes newly opened,
crimson rhododendron.

ii
Parted robe,
her breasts heavy as fruit,
blossom-delicate.
I slow my breathing, so
to not bruise her spread flesh.

iii
Tangled hair
flows over my chest, a stream,
mysterious
and artful, my senses drugged
as if by incense at her touch.

If I remove the line breaks from a poem, does it stop being a poem? If I fill my prose story with alliterations, and internal rhymes, and break lines to make it look like verse, does it begin being a poem?

While I like both Three Tanka for Yosano Akiko and The Coin, I feel that the first is much closer to being prose, despite what you've said, about there being "studied technique" in it. Three Tanka is much more about the imagery it conjures than about a connection between writer and reader. The coin, on the other hand, presents a framework which requires some deeper engagement from the reader, giving only this hint: "We who live our lives within the outer margin, with sad Humanity we face our equivocal fate." You could "read it in 30 seconds, and feel like it says something", but then you'd be missing on actually connecting to its meaning.
 
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Tzara said:
You are absolutely correct, fridayam. Time gives me little space to write, let alone read, and my time might be happiest spent (I won't say "best spent," as that seems presumptuous) working on my own poems.

Certainly, commenting on your poems (which are, at least those I've read, of very good quality, and usually quite interesting) takes time away from my own work, and if there is no prospect of reciprocation of effort (and here I am not talking about me personally, but about anyone who writes poems here), why should I consider ever commenting on yours, or even reading them?

If you're happy with just getting comments from people who don't themselves post poems, or people who don't care that they get reciprocal comments, why bother with that response? Frankly, you seem to be saying something like "Please comment on my poem, though I won't comment on yours because I'm busy (and your poem could not possibly be as important as mine)."

{End of Main Comment}

Hi, mods. I think this discussion should be moved to that subforum, maybe to a thread titled something like "The Ethics of Comments." That's too serious, but kind of what I have in mind. I'll trust your judgment on that.

Ideally, you will keep gm's original comment, fridayam's response, and my response to him in this thread and link to a thread in the other forum where you (again, ideally) duplicate those three posts and let us all discuss it.

Because I know you all are just dying for the opportunity to spend your day wanking all that stuff around.

Or you could just leave everything where it is and hope for the best.
Click to expand...

I was waiting to see if Tzara's suggestion was going to be followed, to keep discussion from seeping into this thread, but apparently no one cares.

Proper comments take effort. They require careful reading and (some) thought. I have a tendency to comment on people who will show appreciation for a comment, either by providing an acknowledgment, entertaining a discussion on poetry, or by commenting what I write. It's something I do naturally — it's obvious that, if I feel like my time is being wasted, I will not be as willing to invest it in the same manner again.

With that said, I don't comment in order to get comments. In fact, I've gone for weeks without receiving a comment while making dozens of comments, myself. Worse: I've made comments that I'm not sure were even read. Those feel like taking a piss in the ocean: meaningless, nothing's changed.

(Well, except that, by forcing myself to think, to make a "proper" comment, I am learning — so it isn't a complete waste of time, despite the receiver's inaction.)

I totally get and respect others' unwillingness to reciprocate. I don't require others to. Hell, I fully expect most people here to never comment on anything of mine. I'm just not sure why you feel like I should care about your Time if you don't care about mine. Take what comments you get for free and be happy that you got any.
 
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