Observations on Sadomasochism - Physical and Emotional

(Apologies in advance if this is rehashing a thread that's already been done, but I was too lazy to search hard.)

I've observed something over the years that I find really fascinating: namely, a bit of what I consider to be a double standard in how people tend to react to themes of physical sadomasochism vs emotional sadomasochism. In general it seems people are much more accepting and supportive of physical sadomasochism than of emotional sadomasochism. This doesn't surprise me in society at large, but I do find it a little bit surprising that I observe it just as much within the kink community.

When someone openly criticizes or judges physical sadomasochism - "How can she hit him? How can he want those bruises on his body?" - everyone jumps in with the standard defense of how BDSM is about alternative forms of sexual expression and YKINMK, etc. etc. It's not until the physical acts get really severe that you see large swathes of the kinky population start to tap out on defending the acts as being valid for consenting adults.

Yet when the sadomasochism in question is emotional or psychological in nature, it feels like even in the kink community everyone is far quicker to default to a position of, "This is abuse and no self-respecting kinkster - nay, human being! - could or should want to do this to someone else or have it done to them. They are fucked up and need help."

And I find myself wondering, what's truly the big difference between physical and emotional sadomasochism? Why do we react so differently to the two and defend one as valid longer than the other? We say physical bruises will heal, and that's part of why it's okay to beat on a lover. But emotional bruises heal too, so why is it less okay to fuck with their emotions?

For physical acts, people often draw the line at highly visible physical limits - things like drawing blood, large and long-lasting bruises, etc. Is our tendency to be uncomfortable with emotional pain related to the fact that there is less in the way of visible effects, which somehow make it harder to draw a line in the sand and thus leading us to an overabundance of caution?

I've heard the argument, "Because you can really fuck someone up permanently that way," but it doesn't really work for me. I could really fuck someone up permanently physically, too. In fact, that might be easier to do physically than emotionally. Yet we don't bat an eyelash about physical play, laying out limits that allow for some pain that the bottom works their way through in some short amount of time, anywhere from minutes to days. But we don't look at emotional play the same way, and I find that curious.

Has anyone else observed this phenomenon? What thoughts do you all have?

While you’re all thinking about this I’ll take bets on how long Nezhul’s post will be. I’m setting the over/under at 900 words. PM me your wagers.

Miles Long said:

While you’re all thinking about this I’ll take bets on how long Nezhul’s post will be. I’m setting the over/under at 900 words. PM me your wagers.

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I happen to like Nezhul's posts. They make sense to me. And excuse me while I veer a little bit.

I don't want to give too many details here. But I came from an abusive background. And by that I mean flat out abuse. Was not sexual but physical and verbal. That person spent many years in counseling and I was able to make peace with him. I would have to say in that situation, save for the time he went too far and nearly choked me to death, the physical stuff seemed far easier to recover from than the emotional stuff. Bruises and such heal. Please note that I am not trying to make light of anyone who is in an abusive relationship. I am just speaking from my past. But when someone calls you some sort of name or implies that you're an idiot or something, it does leave you questioning yourself. As in... Maybe I really am like that!

And this is probably going to get long winded but... I spent a great many years working on myself. I think I have good self esteem. I have self love. I try to spread light and love and be of benefit to the world without being a doormat. Even then, some people in my life get upset with me and accuse me of letting people walk over me or take advantage of me. Nope. I know my limits and I have cut people out of my life when I felt they were in fact trying to do those things.

Then my marriage which is no longer. Good thing that it is no longer. He was a control freak and tried very hard to knock me down a peg with emotional and verbal abuse. He even admitted that he felt better about himself when he could do this. Of course there was more to it. Lots of lies. Counseling that didn't help. And the day came when I told him that if he wouldn't treat me nicely, I would be spending my time with people who did. And I pretty much cut him out of my life because he would not change. But...

I got no help for the longest time in trying to get out of the marriage. Why? Because he didn't hit me. Apparently if he had, I could have him arrested and I would have grounds for divorce. But controlling things? Verbal and emotional stuff? Not abuse, according to the many LE people and lawyers I spoke to. Thankfully things are changing there as well. My lawyer referred to him as a psycho based on his behavior. Yep. No question about that!

Okay then... On to the sex stuff. I do have my limits. I am strong willed and nobody is going to make me do something that I really don't want to although I may be willing to try things that I never thought I would.

As for the Dom/Sub stuff, I can go either way. When I had the relationship with the older guy who was into that, I just sort of melted and let him have his way with me. It felt good to give up control. And the kind of pain he gave felt good. Please note that there wasn't always pain. He liked variety too. But the feeling of having to sit on a hard wooden bench or chair the day after getting a good hard spanking or whipping brings a fresh wave of pain that also gets me excited and makes me think of him. Same for trying to put on a bra when my breasts/nipples are sore and bruised from what he did to me.

Do I like this sort of thing because I was in an abusive relationship? I don't think so because the way he went about things was not the same as it had been in the abusive relationship. Now had he tried to choke me, I likely would have had to freak. I do have issues with that. If I see a pic or vid of someone wearing a tight collar or being choked, it's upsetting to me and I can't continue to look. But... He knew this. We had discussed my past. He was very careful when he did restrain me not to do it too tightly. It was more for effect than anything else. I could have truly gotten out if I seriously felt the need to.

I only felt the need to once, but I didn't do it. It was the first time he had tied me up. He also blindfolded me and left the room. I didn't know where he had gone or if he was truly coming back. A sense of panic took over. But that was the beauty of it. I suppose if that sort of thing isn't a turn on for you, you wouldn't get it. But it worked very well for me.

As for emotional stuff... He didn't verbally abuse me. Yes, he might have used words in the heat of the moment like "slut" but that kind of stuff happens. In my case, the emotional stuff was more like not knowing what might come next or when he might stop doing what he was doing to me. I suppose that could be looked at as emotional abuse from the standpoint of making me feel a little fright or confusion but it just sort of added to the experience. Some people like roller coasters for the same reason.

I also crave controlling another sometimes. That particular older guy did like getting some pain on occasion. Can't really say that any of the others I was with liked being tied up or whipped or anything of the sort but... One of my favorite things to do once in a while is to take control of his cock right after he has an orgasm. I know how tender and sore it can be to be handled, and handle it, I will. I do have a fantasy of tying a guy up and subjecting him to prolonged torture like that. But I've never done it. Just a few seconds is usually enough. I just sort of want them to remember it.

So... That's my story. I have read other people's stories and what they do is not for me. But then neither are roller coasters.

it feels like even in the kink community everyone is far quicker to default to a position of, "This is abuse and no self-respecting kinkster - nay, human being! - could or should want to do this to someone else or have it done to them. They are fucked up and need help."

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I don't know where you are getting this, honestly.

In my view of masochism, most of it is emotional anyway. Few people like the feeling of pain. Pain hurts, and it feels bad. What people like it power exchange that is accented by things like pain, bondage or servitude.

There's nothing wrong with emotional masochism, when both people are consenting to participate. The problem here is, that it's a lot harder to mix up with emotional abuse. There are a lot of people who will "consent" to emotional abuse because the abuser has pressured or coerced them to do so. They themselves will not even understand that they're being abused, they will think that "That's what true submissive should do" or something.

In fact, emotional abuse is often so subtle that both the victim and the abuser don't even realize they are doing it. And from the outside, it's much harder to parse weather it's all agreed on or not.

With pain, things are simple. There're a bunch of common techniques or even specific appliances that are used for nothing more than sexual BDSM. In fact, sexual pain play is very distinct from any physical abuse. No one will hit each other in the face or kick the stomach in sexual play. At the same time, in an abusive environment - few abusers would spank someone with a spanking paddle. Barring fringe cases, that are always there, it's very easily understood by both the submissive and the sadist, as well as anyone who happens to know about their play, what's going on.

Like most BDSM, emotionally-tinged experiences are the only thing that work for me. There can be a lot of physical aspects to it as well, but without a strong dose of emotional involvement, I lose a lot of interest.

I recently saw an amazing scene involving 3 leather sisters. I won't go into too much detail, but it involved heavy shame around bed wetting. The 2 women that were topping the 3rd knew exactly what would trigger and effect the 3rd woman, and were pouring water over her and saying that she couldn't resist. It was one of the more emotional experiences that I've ever watched, with absolutely no physical sadomasochism at all, but an intense level of emotional masochism. That said, emotional or physical masochism can be tinged with a great deal of love and affection, which is also my personal preference. I can fuck someone up I don't know, but I'd rather fuck someone up that I am intimate and close with. You can go to depths that don't exist with pick-up play and casual acquaintances.

Emotional sadomasochism has a lot more depth IMHO, and brings out a lot more tears, which to a sadist like me, are always appealing.

Nezhul said:

<snip>


With pain, things are simple. There're a bunch of common techniques or even specific appliances that are used for nothing more than sexual BDSM. In fact, sexual pain play is very distinct from any physical abuse. No one will hit each other in the face or kick the stomach in sexual play. At the same time, in an abusive environment - few abusers would spank someone with a spanking paddle. Barring fringe cases, that are always there, it's very easily understood by both the submissive and the sadist, as well as anyone who happens to know about their play, what's going on.

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I beg to differ here. Have you not seen some of those videos where serious physical abuse seems to occur? I say seems to because who knows if they are really doing what it seems. I've done acting and I know how to make it look and sound like you've inflicted serious damage to the other person from hitting or something when really if things went right, there was no real damage or even pain.

I am one who was in an abusive relationship and was frequently spanked with a spanking paddle. I was even given the paddle as a gift when my abuser died. Just seeing that thing made me feel sick. I disposed of it. But like I said... My abuser was in counseling for many years for anger management problems among other things. I forgave him but it was a very long time before I could let a stranger come near me without flinching. That's what happens when you get hit repeatedly. You begin to mistrust people and assume that they too might hit you. This is enhanced when the abusive person not only allows but encourages others to do the same to you.

I don't want to give details but a person in my life now was and still is sadistic. Because this person is now elderly and a relative, I feel on some level that I must keep in touch with her. But our contact is limited. It has to be for my sake. I will no longer tolerate her poor behavior or even give her the chance try that which she might do. And she did once punch me in the stomach. This was some years back. I began to feel unwell and said that I might have to sleep on her couch instead of driving home because I felt sick to my stomach. Her reaction? She yanked me up from the couch, punched me in in the stomach in an attempt to prove that I was faking the illness. I remember dropping to the floor where I couldn't move.

Now my experience with sex and pain is totally different. I divide pain into two groups. Good and bad. I spoke of bad somewhere here in another post. Now this guy was the most vanilla of the vanilla and as it turned out, didn't even like sex at all but I think he was trying to go out of his way to prove his manliness or something. He'd been away on business. Came back and proceeded to fuck the hell out of me, wearing a condom. This wasn't just one time. It was repeatedly. And while I have done that before, it wasn't the same. This guy wouldn't listen to me for one thing and couldn't seem to cum for another. He just kept going and going almost non-stop for hours. Like he was drilling for something. I kept telling him to stop because it was hurting. He just kept saying that it wasn't hurting. And he weighed a lot more than me but I do work out and was using rather hefty weights at the time so was able to foist him off of me. I then ran to the bathroom and discovered that I was peeing blood. I had a pesky bladder infection from that encounter. It lasted for weeks. That was a not good kind of pain. It also turned out that the guy had no comprehension whatever in the communication department.

The good kind of pain for me is one that pushes limits but isn't going to cause damage. The older guy that I mentioned prior was into tantric sex and a lot of other things. We had super good communication. He could read me and I could read him. Our relationship was very good in the sex department. If I told him to stop, he might stop. He might not. He knew when to push the limits. And it just worked.

I did learn though, not to mention anything about our sex life to any of my friends. Why? They did not understand at all and even the mention of telling them that I was tied up with scarves was met with horrified looks and a lecture.

That's why this site is great. I can talk about this stuff here.

Miles Long said:

Has anyone else observed this phenomenon? What thoughts do you all have?

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What an interesting topic, I'll follow with interest! A couple of quick, somewhat disjointed notes before I have to run off to work.

I definitely share your observations about emotional masochism being a difficult and often dismissed topic in the kink community. I have tried talking about it several times over many years, and it almost never ends well. It's gotten to a point where I'm a little hesitant to even talk about it with people who don't know me at least fairly well.

I'm a big fan of emotional masochism. When I've talked about this with people either one-on-one or publicly in kink communities, the overwhelmingly most common reaction I've gotten is people labeling my partner an abuser and me an emotionally unstable wreck of a human being for liking and wanting something like that. My kink has been written off as a mental health issue very many times by armchair psychologists. That gets old pretty fast. At least the people who have known me for a good while can't use that argument in good faith, so the conversations have more of a chance to actually be conversations rather than people wondering if I was a bully myself or bullied when I was in school and use emotional masochism as a way to cope, or if should just be locked up in an institution to save me from myself.


For me emotional and physical masochism feel very different. Physical pain gets the endorphins going and that's a large part of why pain feels good to me. I can achieve the endorphin rush with a relative stranger as far as they know their way around the implement they're using. I think one reason why people find it easier to relate to and defend physical masochism is the endorphin rush pain can cause. It's an easy enough concept to grasp and explain even to those who aren't into sadomasochism.

With emotional masochism, at least for me, there are zero endorphins involved in the active process. It all depends on the intensity of course, but a lot of the time when it happens, I just honestly feel miserable and wonder how they could say or do something like that to me. The miserable feeling can last for anything between minutes or hours and days and the pleasure comes later. This is also not something I could get enjoyment out of with a relative stranger.

I wouldn't like to play with emotional masochism with everybody, at least not in a way that'd take the masochism very far. As with physical masochism, there are varying degrees of emotional masochism. It doesn't have to be the bullwhip end of the spectrum that does the trick for me, but some of my fondest and most special BDSM experiences have to do with the bullwhip degree of emotional masochism.

It takes a special connection, and I need to be absolutely certain that my partner can handle the aftermath as well. I know I can deal with my emotions an will eventually get a lot of pleasure out of the experience, but I also know that seeing me feel miserable for days can be difficult to handle for the person who caused that. In a way the very worst thing my partner could do in a situation like that would be apologizing to me, so I really need to know in advance they can deal with the aftermath if we're playing with emotional sadomasochism on that level.

The level of trust and intimacy emotional sadomasochism both requires and builds is really something special to me.

Nezhul said:

I don't know where you are getting this, honestly.

In my view of masochism, most of it is emotional anyway. Few people like the feeling of pain. Pain hurts, and it feels bad. What people like it power exchange that is accented by things like pain, bondage or servitude.

There's nothing wrong with emotional masochism, when both people are consenting to participate. The problem here is, that it's a lot harder to mix up with emotional abuse. There are a lot of people who will "consent" to emotional abuse because the abuser has pressured or coerced them to do so. They themselves will not even understand that they're being abused, they will think that "That's what true submissive should do" or something.

In fact, emotional abuse is often so subtle that both the victim and the abuser don't even realize they are doing it. And from the outside, it's much harder to parse weather it's all agreed on or not.

With pain, things are simple. There're a bunch of common techniques or even specific appliances that are used for nothing more than sexual BDSM. In fact, sexual pain play is very distinct from any physical abuse. No one will hit each other in the face or kick the stomach in sexual play. At the same time, in an abusive environment - few abusers would spank someone with a spanking paddle. Barring fringe cases, that are always there, it's very easily understood by both the submissive and the sadist, as well as anyone who happens to know about their play, what's going on.

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I agree that there is an emotional aspect to physical masochism too and that pain can be used as a way to underline the power exchange of the dynamic. But there are lots and lots of people for whom taking or inflicting pain in itself is the goal and has nothing to do with power dynamics.

I understand that it can be dicey to witness emotional sadomasochism in play and have to wonder if it's consensual or not. That's a good point and maybe it's one reason why people find the topic of emotional sadomasochism so difficult. I've also been privy to a D/s dynamic where the physical sadomasochism was taken to a level that left me wondering if everything truly is consensual. It's a very uncomfortable situation to be in, and yes, with emotional sadomasochism the line can be even more difficult to draw.

Also, I know for a fact that people are hit in the face and kicked in the stomach in sexual play. The line between sexual play and abuse is not as clear cut as you make it sound like, not even when it comes to physical sadomasochism.

richard_daily said:

Like most BDSM, emotionally-tinged experiences are the only thing that work for me. There can be a lot of physical aspects to it as well, but without a strong dose of emotional involvement, I lose a lot of interest.

I recently saw an amazing scene involving 3 leather sisters. I won't go into too much detail, but it involved heavy shame around bed wetting. The 2 women that were topping the 3rd knew exactly what would trigger and effect the 3rd woman, and were pouring water over her and saying that she couldn't resist. It was one of the more emotional experiences that I've ever watched, with absolutely no physical sadomasochism at all, but an intense level of emotional masochism. That said, emotional or physical masochism can be tinged with a great deal of love and affection, which is also my personal preference. I can fuck someone up I don't know, but I'd rather fuck someone up that I am intimate and close with. You can go to depths that don't exist with pick-up play and casual acquaintances.

Emotional sadomasochism has a lot more depth IMHO, and brings out a lot more tears, which to a sadist like me, are always appealing.

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Although we are not exactly into the same things, it's like... The other person or people are touching your soul. It's a deeper thing than sex or even love. You can see it in their eyes and they in yours.

It's not really a case of double standards more a reflection that with emotional play the boundaries between play and abuse can be far less distinct. For me the difference is exemplified by the concept of a safe word. With physical acts you can easily have and use a safe word, a line is crossed where play is considered to have turned into abuse, this is communicated and the abuse stops instantly. With many forms of emotional play lines aren't really crossed because the boundaries are so diffuse so it can all turn nasty far more easily. Most people, kinksters included, recognise this, often instinctively and, erring on the side of caution, are far quicker to pass on judgements that are intended to prevent harm.

My first thought was about consent. Now, my laptop is fucked and I’m posting from a phone so this certainly isn’t going to be lengthy.

I assume you’re referencing an incorrect opinion that physical pain in the bdsm context is consensual, but emotional pain isn’t. Which, FYI, I’ve not really seen with any degree of regularity. I suppose traditionally, (and incorrectly) people associated abuse with physical violence. Over the last decade or so we have become better at recognising emotional abuse, it’s more of a buzzword now than a black eye from your SO. Certainly in the UK the government have spent a few million quid on adverts that tell us how to recognise emotional, financial and manipulative behaviours and/or abuse.

I suspect the issue that you mention (and again I’ve never seen it first hand) is that perhaps opinions run a little behind the times. A few decades ago if you smacked your partner about a bit it must be without consent; And therefore, a form of abuse. The media dictated that we recognise it and be rescued from it. I think it’s much more socially acceptable now to enjoy pain and physical manipulation as part of any consenting interaction. Could it be that society, as a whole, has become so fixated on recognising emotional “abuse” that there are people who haven’t quite realised how emotional masochism can be consenting and enjoyable? Of course. However, it’s not something that I’d expect to see from within the bdsm community. Am I showing my naivety?

I’m sure someone mentioned observation of interactions and questioning whether or not they were consensual (Sorry- mobile posting sucks for this!) and i think this is a valid point. I’m of the opinion that if something works for you and your partner then go for it. To hell with what other people think. There are specific kinks that efficiently turn my libido off, but I can appreciate that they work very well for others. Emotional sadomasochism included. My rational mind knows all this. However, I still struggle internally with ideas of emotional masochism and consent. Where does the manipulation end? And is it what both partners want, or had one been coerced to believe that this was something they consented to? Far too many subtleties to mention.

For my part, I’m yet another person with an abusive ex. One of his favourite past-times was to sit on my chest and squeeze my neck. He liked to tell me that he could kill me at any point.
The more physical side of things I seem to have recovered from completely. Choke me whilst you fuck me? Oh, absolutely. No apparent association to past events at all.
The emotional side of things? Over a decade down the line and the idea of including this in any of our play is just abhorrent to me. There’s a reason that I’ve not had a lasting relationship in over a decade, and it’s not my antisocial tendencies.

I still think it’s a consent issue, but I’m really struggling to articulate why.

TheSilverLining said:

I still think it’s a consent issue, but I’m really struggling to articulate why.

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^ I agree

So I'm not sure my thoughts here are welcome or especially valid as I'm still an extreme newcomer to this lifestyle and kink in general. But I agree it's a consent issue.

I think the real difference is that even though you consent to physical pain and it will have the same efficacy. As an example, I can give you permission to slap my face and know that you are going to slap my face. Even with that knowledge, the slap still stings and the pain isn't diminished.

Emotionally, I can give explicit permissions and consent but then that lessens the impact. Whether you mean name calling/words, withdrawal, or acts of humiliation, I think explicit consent does damper the impact. That being said the ONE thing I DO know about bdsm is that consent and trust and boundaries are vital.

I've been really blessed to not have much of history with abusive partners but I did talk regularly with an Australian Dom a few months back. And this was very much His thing. The problem was he would just say or do something and THEN say "You know you can end this whenever you want." So me staying was a kind of consent but the things had been said or asked already (mainly targeted against the fact that I am married.) And in the moment, giving into that seemed (and still does) like the most submissive I have ever been. It brought the tears and subspace and made me complete emotional silly putty, which was hot at the time. But now, three months later... his words are still in my head even though he's not around. I'm left to deal with the repercussions of someone else's emotional sadism.

Bruises heal and are forgotten but emotions are a much more unexplainable kind of magic.

And if that that sounds dumb or naive, I apologize and blame it on the early hour.

AlbertShufflebottom said:

With many forms of emotional play lines aren't really crossed because the boundaries are so diffuse so it can all turn nasty far more easily. Most people, kinksters included, recognise this, often instinctively and, erring on the side of caution, are far quicker to pass on judgements that are intended to prevent harm.

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I think this is a good point that with emotional sadomasochism it's difficult or maybe even impossible to draw clear boundaries that shouldn't be crossed. Even if some topics are clearly agreed to be out of bounds, emotions tend to bleed and are rarely neatly packed away in a single box. However, I think with good communication the risks can be mitigated. Not removed, but mitigated.

Accidents happen with physical sadomasochism as well. In my experience there tends to be a little more understanding in the kink community towards those kinds of accidents than there is for the incidents where someone without meaning to takes for example a humiliation scene a step too far.

TheSilverLining said:

However, I still struggle internally with ideas of emotional masochism and consent. Where does the manipulation end? And is it what both partners want, or had one been coerced to believe that this was something they consented to? Far too many subtleties to mention.

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I have personally been questioned the source of my consent for emotional play several times, usually by people who are not at all involved in the dynamic at all. The question I've been asked most often is if I use emotional masochism as a coping method for dealing with some traumas of being a bully or bullied. I think only once anybody's been worried that I've been coerced to believe that it is something I want.

I think it's fair to think about these things about consent, but I think they go for all play in general, not just emotional masochism.

PrettyLilPussy said:

^ I agree

So I'm not sure my thoughts here are welcome or especially valid as I'm still an extreme newcomer to this lifestyle and kink in general. But I agree it's a consent issue.

I think the real difference is that even though you consent to physical pain and it will have the same efficacy. As an example, I can give you permission to slap my face and know that you are going to slap my face. Even with that knowledge, the slap still stings and the pain isn't diminished.

Emotionally, I can give explicit permissions and consent but then that lessens the impact. Whether you mean name calling/words, withdrawal, or acts of humiliation, I think explicit consent does damper the impact. That being said the ONE thing I DO know about bdsm is that consent and trust and boundaries are vital.

I've been really blessed to not have much of history with abusive partners but I did talk regularly with an Australian Dom a few months back. And this was very much His thing. The problem was he would just say or do something and THEN say "You know you can end this whenever you want." So me staying was a kind of consent but the things had been said or asked already (mainly targeted against the fact that I am married.) And in the moment, giving into that seemed (and still does) like the most submissive I have ever been. It brought the tears and subspace and made me complete emotional silly putty, which was hot at the time. But now, three months later... his words are still in my head even though he's not around. I'm left to deal with the repercussions of someone else's emotional sadism.

Bruises heal and are forgotten but emotions are a much more unexplainable kind of magic.

And if that that sounds dumb or naive, I apologize and blame it on the early hour.

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Your thoughts are most definitely welcome and valid on Lit! We all were newbies once.

I've never felt that consent would take something away from my experiences with emotional masochism, or any other type of play for that matter. Ok, that might also be because of the fact that I suck at negotiating very clear boundaries and it's never even occurred to me to ask for a laundry list of things my partner is about to call me or whatever. What is it about giving explicit consent for emotional play that dampens the effect, if you don't mind me asking?

I agree that emotions often take a bit longer to heal than physical bruises. But is that automatically a bad thing? Does that render the previous play you (general you, not you specifically PLP, just to be clear) have enjoyed into something bad or even abusive if the healing takes longer than expected?

Because emotions can take a while to heal, I think when playing with emotional sadomasochism all parties need to have a really good grasp on how they process feelings and need to take full responsibility of their own emotions during the scene and after it as well. The play can easily take unexpected turns, because boundaries on the emotional side often are diffuse as Albert Shufflebottom pointed out. That's where good communication, trust and knowing how to deal with your own emotions become very important.

Miles Long said:

While you’re all thinking about this I’ll take bets on how long Nezhul’s post will be. I’m setting the over/under at 900 words. PM me your wagers.

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In a nutshell, I think it’s because emotional abuse takes longer to heal.
We know that a slap may sting. Emotionally, we don’t know what stings until we experiment.

That being said, mind games are fine. Part of play. Call me names, taunt me.
Punishment to me is withholding affection.
So, there is a fine line.

The local community where I live is a big fan of mind fuckery / emotional sadism. There have been "labs" about the subject. A couple of munches I've attended addressed it. Like Richard Daley, I've witnessed powerful, emotionally wrenching scenes that had nothing to do with the physical.

Here on Lit, it's a bit different. We had that thread about being a doormat. It was a tough discussion because we all had such different experiences and triggers with the word "doormat." I think that's the key - what triggers us. What happened to us in the past that left scars we don't want to fuck with.

Emotional sadism is a tricky thing. You really have to know someone well to make it work. It's easier for me to say I like to be spanked with a paddle and I can generally find someone who knows how to spank with a paddle. I can tell a potential play partner canes thrill me or I don't really like a single tail.

It's much much more difficult to say I really get off on... what? what can I admit in front of all of you that isn't totally embarrassing or shameful or fearful and then trust you'll hold my secret dear and use it in a manner that will get us both an amazing outcome?

The older I've become, the more I lean toward emotional masochism instead of the physical. I crave that feeling of having someone in my head, wandering around in it, figuring out what buttons to push, what I'm afraid of, what he or she can use to make me a better sub.

The physical seems fleeting. The emotional stays with me much, much longer. Yes, if a cutting scene goes awry, that's not fleeing. So I get your point, Miles, that in some cased, physical acts have that possibility. But usually, a cut can get stitched up. Having my heart or my self esteem sliced in pieces takes a lot longer to heal, unless my partner knows how to put those pieces back together.

seela said:

I agree that emotions often take a bit longer to heal than physical bruises. But is that automatically a bad thing? Does that render the previous play you (general you, not you specifically PLP, just to be clear) have enjoyed into something bad or even abusive if the healing takes longer than expected?

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It isn't a bad thing to heal longer - in fact, this is why I like the emotional stuff. It's a 5000 piece puzzle that takes weeks, months to put together. This is why it's super important to have a sadist/partner who treats my puzzle pieces with care.

Farawyn said:

In a nutshell, I think it’s because emotional abuse takes longer to heal.
We know that a slap may sting. Emotionally, we don’t know what stings until we experiment.

That being said, mind games are fine. Part of play. Call me names, taunt me.
Punishment to me is withholding affection.
So, there is a fine line.

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I realize I just said the same thing Farawyn did only I used 900 more words...

cookiecat said:

It isn't a bad thing to heal longer - in fact, this is why I like the emotional stuff. It's a 5000 piece puzzle that takes weeks, months to put together. This is why it's super important to have a sadist/partner who treats my puzzle pieces with care.

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Yes, I agree.

I too enjoy the emotional stuff, because it cuts so deep and the impact lasts a long time. Not always, though, but sometimes. Sometimes it really lingers.

seela said:

Your thoughts are most definitely welcome and valid on Lit! We all were newbies once.

I've never felt that consent would take something away from my experiences with emotional masochism, or any other type of play for that matter. Ok, that might also be because of the fact that I suck at negotiating very clear boundaries and it's never even occurred to me to ask for a laundry list of things my partner is about to call me or whatever. What is it about giving explicit consent for emotional play that dampens the effect, if you don't mind me asking?

I agree that emotions often take a bit longer to heal than physical bruises. But is that automatically a bad thing? Does that render the previous play you (general you, not you specifically PLP, just to be clear) have enjoyed into something bad or even abusive if the healing takes longer than expected?

Because emotions can take a while to heal, I think when playing with emotional sadomasochism all parties need to have a really good grasp on how they process feelings and need to take full responsibility of their own emotions during the scene and after it as well. The play can easily take unexpected turns, because boundaries on the emotional side often are diffuse as Albert Shufflebottom pointed out. That's where good communication, trust and knowing how to deal with your own emotions become very important.

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I have been thinking so much about this since yesterday and have really enjoyed everyone's thoughtful responses!
To answer your question about explicit content dampening the effect - I think to give consent to the overall play type is important but not the every word (i.e. Can I tell you - - - ?)
While in my previous and only experience with emotional play, emotional fuckery (can we call it that?) was not cleared before hand, I really don't think I had the language and terminology at that time anyway. I'm not sure what OP had in mind or even all the ways this type of play could go but it was powerful for me at the time and has definitely stayed with me... and in a good way. I don't think I've ever experienced something that piercing. I'm not sure I ever will again but I can totally get why it's preferable to physical pain.
It would also seem to take a lot more skill on the Dom's end. Like someone said above almost anyone can swing a paddle, it's a lot harder to get in someone's head.
I just think it has to be the right people ... and aftercare... lots of that!

cookiecat said:

I realize I just said the same thing Farawyn did only I used 900 more words...

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But that accent...

Miles Long said:

Yet when the sadomasochism in question is emotional or psychological in nature, it feels like even in the kink community everyone is far quicker to default to a position of, "This is abuse and no self-respecting kinkster - nay, human being! - could or should want to do this to someone else or have it done to them. They are fucked up and need help."

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It’s a fundamental truth that people tend to easily condemn things they don’t take the time to try and understand. It’s also true that far too many people are incapable of attempting to understand things without relating them directly back to themselves and how they feel which, if it’s something they disagree with, will most definitely illicit a negative reaction do to preexisting negative connotations.

Also, this is the interwebbin.
So, if you ask a question about a topic that strikes a nerve with someone you’re gonna get a strong response. There are also plenty of people that don’t know what the fuck they’re talking about, so they tend to jump on bandwagons or say whatever they think will net them whatever attention they want. I’ve seen a lot of threads pop up in Talk that are either started by maliciously stupid trolls or that end up devolving into fights about off topic nonsense by those who specialize in purposely missing the point. So I take all that crap with a giant spoonful of salt, roll my eyes, and move on.

Miles Long said:

And I find myself wondering, what's truly the big difference between physical and emotional sadomasochism? Why do we react so differently to the two and defend one as valid longer than the other? We say physical bruises will heal, and that's part of why it's okay to beat on a lover. But emotional bruises heal too, so why is it less okay to fuck with their emotions?

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My answer to this, is time.
The reason most of us react strongly on here to the topic of any type of emotional or psychological sadomasochism, has more to do with the situations presented than they do with the theme itself. Most of the time, these questions and threads concerning it, deal with someone new to the idea and they are either about to try it with someone they just met and want advice, or are in the midst of being involved with someone that is clearly abusive and we are trying to drive that point home. It’s less to do with fucking with someone’s emotions, and more to do with not wanting people to be taken advantage of by shitbags that read a few stories, learned some buzzwords, and get their jollies handing out bad experiences or worse. That’s why I react the way I do, and I know I’m not the only one.

The way I look at it is this.
Most people won’t bat an eye these days if someone wants to be spanked, have their hair pulled, use toys, or even be choked during sex. It’s a different story if they were to ask to be humiliated, teased, and degraded to tears while being pinned down and fucked. It’s not really a question of one being worse than the other, but rather one being something that should take a lot longer to get to, and require more effort to earn the right to perform. You’ll kiss people you barely know, you don’t tell them you like being called a cum dumpster. It should be a part of the evolution of a relationship, a logical and organic progression into being a cum dumpster. So, as I said, the difference is time.

You can’t control your words unless you know how to use them, which takes knowledge, patience, and practice to perfect. On the other hand, you can always control how hard you hit someone. Well... Unless you’re a dumb fucking ape. In which case, go home, nobody loves you, and leave those rabbits alone, Lenny.

Also

Starting a round of applause for Miles

Nice thread.

It is more than a consent issue. Consent is a component for sure, but this is a lot more nuanced- for example, does consent from someone who is mentally unwell count? How long does such consent stay valid? The line between healthy and unhealthy are very fine here and needs to be tread carefully.

Darkrhytm said:

It is more than a consent issue. Consent is a component for sure, but this is a lot more nuanced- for example, does consent from someone who is mentally unwell count? How long does such consent stay valid? The line between healthy and unhealthy are very fine here and needs to be tread carefully.

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Most of us are saying communication, not really just consent.

_Necrosomantic_ said:

Starting a round of applause for Miles

Nice thread.

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It really is.

Farawyn said:

Most of us are saying communication, not really just consent.

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I can get onboard with that; trust and communication with lots of love and caring. That component should always be there.

cookiecat said:

The local community where I live is a big fan of mind fuckery / emotional sadism. There have been "labs" about the subject. A couple of munches I've attended addressed it. Like Richard Daley, I've witnessed powerful, emotionally wrenching scenes that had nothing to do with the physical.

Here on Lit, it's a bit different. We had that thread about being a doormat. It was a tough discussion because we all had such different experiences and triggers with the word "doormat." I think that's the key - what triggers us. What happened to us in the past that left scars we don't want to fuck with.

Emotional sadism is a tricky thing. You really have to know someone well to make it work. It's easier for me to say I like to be spanked with a paddle and I can generally find someone who knows how to spank with a paddle. I can tell a potential play partner canes thrill me or I don't really like a single tail.

It's much much more difficult to say I really get off on... what? what can I admit in front of all of you that isn't totally embarrassing or shameful or fearful and then trust you'll hold my secret dear and use it in a manner that will get us both an amazing outcome?

The older I've become, the more I lean toward emotional masochism instead of the physical. I crave that feeling of having someone in my head, wandering around in it, figuring out what buttons to push, what I'm afraid of, what he or she can use to make me a better sub.

The physical seems fleeting. The emotional stays with me much, much longer. Yes, if a cutting scene goes awry, that's not fleeing. So I get your point, Miles, that in some cased, physical acts have that possibility. But usually, a cut can get stitched up. Having my heart or my self esteem sliced in pieces takes a lot longer to heal, unless my partner knows how to put those pieces back together.

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I don't think you have to know someone well. I think you just have to know yourself well.

Would I recommend doing this as pick up play? Absolutely not... Have I done some really deep emotional sadism to women who want to have it done to them pretty much right off the bat? Absolutely.

There is no "right" way to do any sort of masochism. It's a personal journey and motivations (and results) will vary.

Not everyone wants to go deep. Some people want things surface level (or skin deep as it were). That's fine. I simply don't get anything out of sadism that's purely physical. If I'm not dialed in to what someone's motivations are, the emotions behind the intent, I'm generally not going to be interested. That doesn't mean we have to do something involving deep shame and emotional masochism, but for me, there has to be some level of emotional depth and vulnerability from anyone I'm with (even casually).