So why does she always have to love it?

First Simon I disagree with you. I feel that whether a story is a rape fantasy or a rapist fantasy depends very much on the POV of the reader, but I am not going to get involved with a discussion on semantics.

Second, even taking your meaning are you saying that no rape stories from the rapist POV are published. If they are then rapist stories are published.

Third, even taking your meaning it is not whether the female victim ends up liking the rape that keeps it from being a rapist fantasy. In fact I feel strongly that the female victim liking the rape fits much more into a rapist fantasy than the opposite.

To all, I still would like to discuss a story with a man being the non- consensual one.

Moonlight and Roses,

MoonlightandRoses said:

First Simon I disagree with you. I feel that whether a story is a rape fantasy or a rapist fantasy depends very much on the POV of the reader, but I am not going to get involved with a discussion on semantics.

Second, even taking your meaning are you saying that no rape stories from the rapist POV are published. If they are then rapist stories are published.

Third, even taking your meaning it is not whether the female victim ends up liking the rape that keeps it from being a rapist fantasy. In fact I feel strongly that the female victim liking the rape fits much more into a rapist fantasy than the opposite.

To all, I still would like to discuss a story with a man being the non- consensual one.

Moonlight and Roses,

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M&R,

1. It's not a matter of semantics. It goes right to the heart of what you think the fantasy is. I think you are discounting the fact -- and I think it is a fact -- that the biggest driver of the writing, publication, and reading of these stories is the woman's fantasy about rape. Women do fantasize about rape; that's a fact. A story that caters to this fantasy is one in which a woman is subjected to rape. It tells the story from her point of view. The reader's point of view is irrelevant in this case; it's the narration that determines the nature of the story. How could it be otherwise? If the categorization of the story depends on the reader's point of view then one could never categorize a story because reader perceptions always will vary, and for any story there are an infinite number of possible reader reactions.

2. Re your second point: I'm not saying that. I'm sure it's NOT true that no rapist POV stories are published. It's not a genre I have read much so I have no idea what the incidence is of such stories on Literotica. Given that Literotica appears to ban rape stories where the woman doesn't enjoy it, then my guess is that rapist-POV stories are less common. But I don't know that for a fact. I am not claiming they do NOT exist. I know they do. There are nonconsent stories told from the man's point of view where the woman does not enjoy what the man does.

3. Your third point ties into my point, above. It certainly is possible that men with "rapist fantasies" like reading stories where women who are raped enjoy it, because, perhaps, it makes them feel better about their fantasy. But that's not necessarily true. Generally speaking, a rapist doesn't care whether the woman enjoys it. He may even enjoy it more (if he's a psychopath) knowing that the woman doesn't enjoy it. So I don't think you can say, with any confidence, that the fact that a story presents the woman as enjoying rape makes it a rapist fantasy. It may make it so for some people with such fantasies, but not others. But what we can say is that such a story fits right in with the concept of a woman's rape fantasy. This is why the narration and story POV matters much more to how we categorize a story than the reader's POV. Since reader reactions and POVs will be all over the map, there really is no way to use reader POV to categorize stories at all.

Simon, I disagree I feel it is semantics. You did not say that no rapist POV stories are published, but I initially responded to Harold’s quote from the “first form” that “We publish Rape Fantasies and not Rapist Fantasy” and based on your claim that is unlikely to be the case. You wrote that “It certainly possible that men with ‘rapist fantasies’ like reading stories where women who are raped enjoy it” I feel it more likely than you seem to feel.

To all, I have stated my case and the reader can judge its merits. I am not likely to reply anymore to this issue. What I will happily reply to are discussions on stories with a man being the non-consensual one.

Moonlight and Roses,

In GM stories of this ilk, I can pretty much guarantee that a male will be the nonconsensual one.

sr71plt said:

In GM stories of this ilk, I can pretty much guarantee that a male will be the nonconsensual one.

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The issue still is the same regardless of gender, isn't it? There are stories from the POV of the perpetrator and stories from the POV of the victim. Is there a GM equivalent to the female rape fantasy? I would think there would be, and enjoyment of the fantasy would not, in my view, make it necessarily a "rapist" as opposed to "rape" fantasy.

SimonDoom said:

The issue still is the same regardless of gender, isn't it? There are stories from the POV of the perpetrator and stories from the POV of the victim. Is there a GM equivalent to the female rape fantasy? I would think there would be, and enjoyment of the fantasy would not, in my view, make it necessarily a "rapist" as opposed to "rape" fantasy.

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I don't look into this much, but to the extent I have, I see the hetero stories of this to be written and read more from the perspective of the pepetrator and in GM stories more from the perspective of the receiver.

I paused for a while on using "victim" rather than "receiver" for the GM stories, because I perceive a big difference in attitudes toward nonconsensual stories between hetero stories and GM ones, based on societal views of sexual activity. Because of society views, a guy has to overcome a whole lot more justification baggage for having sex with another guy than a woman does with having sex with a man. Therefore, there's a far broader fantasy field in GM for nonconsensual-but-he-really-wanted-it game playing than there is in the hetero world, I think.

Thus, for reader and writer alike, I think a hetero rape fantasy basically bottoms on a sense of violation in hetero stories and of liberation in GM stories (both with elements of other sensations, of course). A big difference. I don't write any (or see any, really) GM rape fantasy stories where the goal is to violate a straight guy; it's always to liberate genuine inclinations in a guy that society has caused him to repress.

For that matter, there's a big difference, I think, in viewing having sex between hetero and GM. In hetero, there are greater consequences to consider by the woman than the man in having sex. (She could get pregnant.) I think there's a big element of "and might this mean for the future?" for the woman, while, for the man, it's more "that was fun; on to the next." With GM sex, it's predominately the latter for them both.

In the noncon section, there are certain trends that tend to mark a victim story as different from an aggressor story.

The most notable is that victim stories usually involve a more prolonged connection. The aggressor is often fixated on the victim, wanting to play for keeps or maintain a psychological dominance.

The aggressor stories often like to treat it more as a one time thing, or if they hope to re-visit the encounter, it's as a voluntary transaction.

Another is that victim stories tend to portray the resistance as genuine and desperate, where the aggressor stories tend to hint at a pretense involved. One prolific writer in the section in particular tends to prefer than the victim just stays still and scolds the aggressor until its over.

I see a disconnect in this thread between writing of stories in general of nonconsent or rape/rape fantasy and writing in the genre for Literotica. I tried to short circuit this disconnect from the get to on this thread. To get posted to Literotica, you have to give lip service at least to the "the victim enjoyed it in the end" formula. That restricts discussion of nonconsent/rape/rape fantasy stories in connection to what you read/write on Literotica.

Attractive to VCs

So, here is the deal, kids. Several of these forums have been purchased by a particular NYC VC.

To be a possible acquisition target, the stories on the site must be "Nice" (even, the not so "Nice" ones).

That's just how the game is played.

sr71plt said:

I don't look into this much, but to the extent I have, I see the hetero stories of this to be written and read more from the perspective of the pepetrator and in GM stories more from the perspective of the receiver.

I paused for a while on using "victim" rather than "receiver" for the GM stories, because I perceive a big difference in attitudes toward nonconsensual stories between hetero stories and GM ones, based on societal views of sexual activity. Because of society views, a guy has to overcome a whole lot more justification baggage for having sex with another guy than a woman does with having sex with a man. Therefore, there's a far broader fantasy field in GM for nonconsensual-but-he-really-wanted-it game playing than there is in the hetero world, I think.

Thus, for reader and writer alike, I think a hetero rape fantasy basically bottoms on a sense of violation in hetero stories and of liberation in GM stories (both with elements of other sensations, of course). A big difference. I don't write any (or see any, really) GM rape fantasy stories where the goal is to violate a straight guy; it's always to liberate genuine inclinations in a guy that society has caused him to repress.

For that matter, there's a big difference, I think, in viewing having sex between hetero and GM. In hetero, there are greater consequences to consider by the woman than the man in having sex. (She could get pregnant.) I think there's a big element of "and might this mean for the future?" for the woman, while, for the man, it's more "that was fun; on to the next." With GM sex, it's predominately the latter for them both.

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Very interesting. Thanks for this response.

I agree about "victim" v. "receiver". I wasn't sure what term to use.

Pilot made a good point above in the difference between writing non con and writing non con for lit.

The having to 'enjoy it' at some point is to be compliant to lit

But having spoken to a non con reader in depth because he wanted me to write a sequel to my only non con story here as a commission piece. But what he wanted was full non con.

I won't write that so it never ended up happening. But during the conversation what I learned is that the true non con fan considers it-in his words- a boner killer when the victim enjoys it.

He also feels the same way about stories where 90% of the way through they don't in anyway, but then there's a twist/reveal where it was a movie shoot, her husband playing a game, a fantasy she paid for pick your twist, he said that also kills the story in the sense an unhappy ending kills the romance crowd.

So in essence the true hardcore non con fan has purely rapist fantasy and don't want the enjoyment.

On a reality level, its also one hell of an eye roller that a woman dragged into an alley by four men and gang raped will suddenly start orgasming and begging for more, but that fits what the site wants so its what an author has to do.

My take has always been if lit does not want 'real non con or rape' to drop the non con from reluctance and just go with a reluctance category so new authors are not confused with what's okay here. If its only reluctance (dub con(dubious consent) is what its referred to in the pay market lit really wants then just go with that.

But that-or any other major category change-is never going to happen so we get stuck with 'rape lite' and the really vague rules surrounding it.

There’s a scene in Nymphomaniac where a man receives a blow job against his will. He is completely hard and enticed but legitimately begging her to stop. He is supposed to be home, using that semen to impregnate his wife as close as possible to the time of her ovulation. I would describe that as a hetero non-con storyline where the male is the victim. And I think the setup is very believable.

disabused said:

We recognize that people have fantasies that they would not enjoy in reality. Why must every such story here include an admission that she does, in fact get off on, for instance, humiliation? To have to admit it is, well, humiliating!

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Basically it's just a question of the site owner's preference. There's no particularly consistent way to parse it as "rape fantasy vs. rapist fantasy" and it's understandable if you see it as a cop-out, which to some extent it is. This is just the form that Laurel is comfortable with.

There are other sites and communities that don't have this restriction about non-con. Some of them also have a healthier culture of dialogue about the genre than Literotica does.

Pretty sure I didn't like it in either of my stories.

Debbie

Charmolypi said:

There’s a scene in Nymphomaniac where a man receives a blow job against his will. He is completely hard and enticed but legitimately begging her to stop. He is supposed to be home, using that semen to impregnate his wife as close as possible to the time of her ovulation. I would describe that as a hetero non-con storyline where the male is the victim. And I think the setup is very believable.

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I agree. That's a very powerful scene. It's extremely uncomfortable to watch -- proof that not all blow jobs are erotic.