Transphobic Humor

Signed it ..and made a heart felt comment ..I know two young Transgender ...veterans of Iraq and Afgahnistan ...I knew them as children, watched them grow up to serve this nation.I respected them as young men and now that they are young women I am not going to question in any way ..their worth ...their bravery ..their honor or their integrity. I will however question all those charater aspects of anyone that would.
 
Signed it. This sort of thing isn't humour. It's bullying.

I feel the same way about those who make jokes against those with Learning Difficulties.
 
Meanwhile, I've pretty much given up on reading any of the "humor" threads over in AH because there's no point in making myself want to punch people who aren't in punching range.
 
I signed it too - although that may not count for much given my location :)
 
I signed it too - although that may not count for much given my location :)
I used to watch Colbert and Stewart quite often on YouTube and I'm in the UK so... yes your vote definitely counts and thank you :rose:
 
Signed it. This sort of thing isn't humour. It's bullying.

I feel the same way about those who make jokes against those with Learning Difficulties.

So agree RR, StickyGirl, Ande, all on here.
Signed too, stop this vile stuff.
Bigotry against TrandGender people, people with learning difficulties, like all biotry should go in the trash can.
There is plenty of good humour without it.
 
What do people think about this?

Is a joke that features an LGBT character ipson facto offensive? Or can we have humour that features gays, Transsexuals et.al. in a respectful way?

For myself, I tend toward the latter view. Mostly because I can't bear the thought of living in a world where we can't take the piss out of each other.
 
What do people think about this?

Is a joke that features an LGBT character ipson facto offensive? Or can we have humour that features gays, Transsexuals et.al. in a respectful way?

For myself, I tend toward the latter view. Mostly because I can't bear the thought of living in a world where we can't take the piss out of each other.

Let me try to explain.

It all depends on who is making the joke. I'm a lesbian I can make jokes about other lesbians, no one is going to be offended. You on the other hand are straight giving you heteronormative privilege, your joke comes from your privilege so it's offensive to those of us who are lesbian, your degrading us to make other heteronormative people laugh.

I'll continue, I'm black although my heritage is almost three quarters European, slightly less than three quarters because that side of my heritage has some first nation blood(American Indian for those who don't understand) the other quarter of my heritage is African. Many of my features are more European than African, I have blue eyes, my hair is almost blond(which I color dark) and the texture is European, my skin color is not white, actually you whites aren't white you're pale.

My race is African, not because it should be but because that is how you white people set the rules, white privilege, do I sound resentful FUCK YES. When you as a white privileged person make jokes about me you make those jokes from your position of privilege which makes your jokes offensive and degrading. I don't make jokes about white people, many black comedians do and most white people seem to be offended by their jokes, even though the black person lacks racial privilege. Although these can be offensive it's rather hard for a black person to really degrade whites as a whole, your privilege insulates you, whereas your jokes can and do degrade all blacks.

Take the word nigger, I can use that word, which I only rarely do, but you shouldn't, why? When you use that word it degrade all blacks because that is how you historically used that word, when I use that word, if I use it to degrade someone, I use it only to degrade one person, not my race, by the way for us nigger can be used as a term of endearment, just like dyke, among lesbians, can be used as a term of endearment.

Before you make a blank statement about jokes about any non-privileged groups, first think about your privilege and think if you lacked that, maybe you to would find those jokes not only offensive but hurtful.
 
Two blondes walk into a bar - you'd have thought one of them would've seen it

Two blacks walk into a bar - you'd have thought one of them would've seen it

Two lesbians walk into a bar - you'd have thought one of them would've seen it

Two trans women walk into a bar - you'd have thought one of them would've seen it

I am white, have white privilege, I am trans, I am vaguely bi, occasionally blond

Of the lines above, I find the first one old, but not offensive.
The second I find seriously offensive and not funny.
The third and fourth are neither offensive nor in the least funny.

So why do I find the second one so offensive? Because the joke offends blacks more than blondes or because my white privilege allows me to direct humour at part of my culture ( the blond myth ) but not to mock race because my culture knows it is offensive ( and possibly illegal ).

How do we unpick the cultural background that allows humour to exist? I think it is impossible to police humour: to say you cannot make this joke or another. The context and the comedian's character affect not just the humour but whether, deep down, there is real offense or alternatively, an acknowledgement that "Yes" we know the topic of the joke is wrong, but that's the point - the humour satirises racist attitudes.

To say only lesbians should make lesbian jokes or only blacks should make black jokes is giving credibility to anti-gays and racists and sounds like humour-apartheid. Humour should help break down barriers - Stewart and Colbert reinforce them.
 
stickygirl,

Yes jokes can be just jokes but when the joke's intend is to either degrade or show superiority it is most likely at the expense of some other group than your own.

I could make a really good joke about two white girls unknowingly walking into a mostly black dance club and it wouldn't be racial because most white girls are not used to being the minority, especially around black men, and their reactions can be humorous. Whereas you can't really do the reverse with black girls, unless it's a racist joke, because most of us have lived our lives where at times, many times, we are the only person of color within a group of white people.

When a joke is two black men such and such, it's most likely going to be a racist joke if the punch line could have worked just as well if it was just two men. I could, at least if I was good at making jokes, which I'm not, make some very funny jokes about black men based on our culture(black culture).

Since I was raised white, at least as much as someone who's skin isn't white can be, I could make some funny jokes about white girls based on culture but those jokes could equally apply to me because it was, still mostly is, my culture also. In truth I had to learn the culture assigned to me by whites which in truth isn't much different, people are people.

I do agree that satire can be used to point out all kind of evil prejudices if done in a manner that isn't hurtful and angers the people who the satirist is trying to change, too often that is the case, people who are angry don't listen nor well they change.

I may myself sound angry with many of my post, including this one and the last. Yes I'm angry with the system I live under and I am angry at people who deserve it, those who hate me, most people no matter the race, gender, orientation, religion and whatever have not earned my anger, so it would be rather silly of me to be angry with them. The anger is not overwhelming but at time the pain from all the hate can be and I know you to at times feel the pain.

I might add I have friends who are blonde and they just hate blonde jokes. Those may be funny but the underlying intent is to stereotype girls with blonde hair and big breasts as being stupid. When you look at surveys about women by looks, fair skinned, skinny, brunettes are thought of as smart and reliable, whereas curvy, blue eyed, blondes are considered much less intelligent and unreliable. Dumb and unreliable doesn't fit any of my blonde friends, so in truth those jokes really aren't that funny.
 
What do people think about this?

Is a joke that features an LGBT character ipson facto offensive? Or can we have humour that features gays, Transsexuals et.al. in a respectful way?

For myself, I tend toward the latter view. Mostly because I can't bear the thought of living in a world where we can't take the piss out of each other.

If you have a moment, try googling the words "trans suicide rate". Then come back here and think about the words I've bolded above.

I realise you meant it in jest, but for a lot of trans folk "can't live in this world" is a literal thing. So, yeah, I appreciate the desire to have a theoretical discussion about whether respectful trans jokes would be okay. But I'm struggling to remember if I have ever heard[/] a respectful trans joke. Seems like about 90%+ come down to some variant of "fake women con guys into sleeping with them and giving them homo cooties".

I think a lot of people who tell those jokes don't intend to do harm; they're just relying on something guaranteed to get a laugh. But regardless of intent, it still reinforces memes that kill people. It still tells the trans kid "you're a freak and nobody will ever love you, and even to your leftie friends you're a joke". And it tells straight guys that trans people are a threat to their manhood. If you've still got Google open, look up trans murder rates.

A lot of trans* folk spend their lives on constant alert for danger, whether it's the guy who wants to kill them or the boss who'll fire them for being trans. That sort of hypervigilance is extremely unhealthy and even "harmless" things can trigger those alarms; it's basically the same thing as a war veteran who hits the floor when somebody slams a door.

I don't believe any topic should be entirely off limits for comedy, but if you want to tell a joke about a disadvantaged group of people it's a good idea to be EXTREMELY mindful of the ramifications for those people and consider whether it might be causing harm. And at the moment, respectful trans* jokes really aren't the issue.

(I have a non-out trans friend who works in HEALTHCARE and they still have to listen to transphobic jokes from colleagues. Ugh.)
 
*nods* yup - there are those 'comedians' who just seem to be plain nasty underneath the glitz, but plenty of others who are not. The ones who ridicule themselves or make poke fun at history ( just been looking at Eddie Izzard on Ytube :) ) rarely say anything spiteful. What I find particularly offensive about Colbert and Stewart is that they can be so incisive with their political satire then come out with shit like those examples cited.
 
bollocks - I'm too tired to find the words to make my point. I think it's possible to laugh at a thing and still respect it. Also I think that finding the humour inherent in our differences is a vital part of accepting them. But right now my brain is like porridge - I'll expand on this when it's all better :)

*nods* yup - there are those 'comedians' who just seem to be plain nasty underneath the glitz, but plenty of others who are not. The ones who ridicule themselves or make poke fun at history ( just been looking at Eddie Izzard on Ytube :) ) rarely say anything spiteful. What I find particularly offensive about Colbert and Stewart is that they can be so incisive with their political satire then come out with shit like those examples cited.
 
bollocks - I'm too tired to find the words to make my point. I think it's possible to laugh at a thing and still respect it. Also I think that finding the humour inherent in our differences is a vital part of accepting them. But right now my brain is like porridge - I'll expand on this when it's all better :)

You'll have to come up with some really good examples for me to believe that. Jokes about how we are different only highlight the differences. Why not have jokes that highlight how much we're the same.

I'm cisgender, sticky is transgender but are were really different? She's female, I'm female. Where is the humor in our differences? My skin color is darker than sticky's where's the humor in that? Sticky's pre-op she still has a penis where's the humor in that? Even if she elected not to have surgery she'd still be like me. Where's the humor in that? I'm lesbian, sticky's bi where's the humor in that?

I could write a fun story about a lesbian in love with a bi transwoman. I could even write of how hard it was to love someone with a penis, that is until the lesbian realized her penis dislike was never about the penis but who it was attached to, men, and that her lover's penis wasn't attached to a man. I could add lots of humor but it would still be a love story about two women and one thing it would not be is a joke.

I don't see any way jokes highlighting differences between those of us who happen to be discriminated against by the majority helps in the least bit, except maybe making you, the majority, feel less guilty.

In the US of A I have two strike against me, I'm a person of color and I'm a lesbian and the truth is I have it a lot easier than a transwoman and if she happens to be a transwoman of color she has it even worse. Make a fucking joke out of that!

I'm don't live in Missouri the show me state but I say SHOW ME!
 
*nods* yup - there are those 'comedians' who just seem to be plain nasty underneath the glitz, but plenty of others who are not. The ones who ridicule themselves or make poke fun at history ( just been looking at Eddie Izzard on Ytube :) ) rarely say anything spiteful. What I find particularly offensive about Colbert and Stewart is that they can be so incisive with their political satire then come out with shit like those examples cited.

Same with a few Aussie comedians over here, guys who are otherwise very progressive. I think with some it's a blind spot; I hope prodding them to think about it will prompt a change.

And for the ones who'll just say whatever gets a laugh, buzzkill at least cuts down on the incentive.

bollocks - I'm too tired to find the words to make my point. I think it's possible to laugh at a thing and still respect it.

Sure. But that only works after respect has been established, and for trans* people that's still a very long way away. It's the difference between play-punching an old friend, and play-punching a stranger in a women's shelter.

The other side of it is that if somebody tells you "X makes me uncomfortable" and you keep doing X just for laughs, that really isn't a respectful relationship.

I might add I have friends who are blonde and they just hate blonde jokes. Those may be funny but the underlying intent is to stereotype girls with blonde hair and big breasts as being stupid. When you look at surveys about women by looks, fair skinned, skinny, brunettes are thought of as smart and reliable, whereas curvy, blue eyed, blondes are considered much less intelligent and unreliable. Dumb and unreliable doesn't fit any of my blonde friends, so in truth those jokes really aren't that funny.

I tend to hear most "blonde" jokes as generic "stupid woman" jokes repackaged for people who don't want to appear too overtly misogynistic.
 
I could write a fun story about a lesbian in love with a bi transwoman. I could even write of how hard it was to love someone with a penis, that is until the lesbian realized her penis dislike was never about the penis but who it was attached to, men, and that her lover's penis wasn't attached to a man. I could add lots of humor but it would still be a love story about two women and one thing it would not be is a joke.

You're such a damned tease :rolleyes:
 
Ok - slightly more awake now. Let's see if I can make my position clearer. I'm not expecting to win anyone over, but I don't want people to think I'm arguing for something I'm not.

I'm a straight guy. i found out I was straight by having gay experiences when I was younger and deciding it wasn't for me. I don't think there's anything wrong with being gay and looking at the way "lad culture" operates in the UK I'm seriously surprised that any women choose to shag guys at all. I don't have any time at all for the idea that being a straight white male makes you inherently superior to anyone that isn't, and I find it rather depressing that humans buy into this kind of tribal thinking. I do my best not to, and if you can point out where I'm wrong about what I believe, then I'll change my mind. N.B. you need to point out where I *am* wrong though, not just where our opinions differ.

As far as humour goes, I think it's a very important thing. If it wasn't then we wouldn't have evolved with a sense of humour. Humour has such adaptive value that a guy can pass on his genetic material because of it. Most girls that I know say that a guy can laugh them into bed.

One way that humour helps keep us alive is that it makes scary things seem less so. That's why we make jokes about things we find threatening and I believe that's the root of jokes that attack [insert group]. Guys, for instance, who feel threatened by homosexuality, may well use homophobic humour as a defence against that. I don't think anyone on here needs a treatise on all the ways that's bad.

To step aside from the main subject for a second. I believe that any kind of inequality harms the people on both sides of the divide. [within reason here - muggers, rapists, murderers etc are unequal for a good reason - different debate though] I don't want to get sidetracked too much here, so I'll just say that I firmly believe that gender inequality damages guys as well as women, which means that eradicating it is a matter of self-interest for guys. I think the same is true when it comes to matters of sexual identity. It doesn't take the brains of an Archbishop to see how bigotry of any flavour is highly toxic to the society that incubates it. Once again I'm just going to say that's what i believe and leave it at that - for reasons of space really.

So - back to humour. Firstly - it's a weapon in some circumstances - that's what this whole thread is about after all. Speaking as a soldier [ex] I guarantee you - weapons are as unprejudiced as a thing can be. In the Falklands conflict, both sides were shooting at each other with Belgian FAL's. My point? If jokes are used to marginalise and ridicule the LGBT segment of humanity, then they can be used to demarginalise them too. You just need to come up with the right jokes.

As far as respect needing to come first before humour is appropriate, I'd respectfully beg to differ on that point. My memory doesn't go back much further than the 70's and fortunately the UK has always been more progressive than the USA, not that that's saying a great deal, but I remember in the 70's, Homophobia was normal and accepted. there were a lot of people challenging that and I don't want to say that any of them were more significant than any other, but the likes of John Inman and Larry Grayson did their bit, through the use of humour, to advance the idea that some people are gay and that's fine. Somebody older than me could point to Kenneth Williams in Round the Horne - doing gay humour while being gay was still illegal. My point is that the respect that gays have now - and I'm not denying we've got a way to go yet - but the respect that gays have got now, was partly earned by these people and others like them. They didn't wait for it to be OK before they made their statement about who they were, and the fact that they used humour as the medium doesn't diminish it.

When I asked if jokes featuring LGBT people were ipso facto offensive, I wasn't asking if something that's offensive in one context becomes inoffensive in another. I was asking if it's possible for LGBT people to feature in jokes in a way that doesn't demean them. I have to say that I don't know any Trans jokes that fit that bill, but just because I don't know any doesn't mean they don't exist, or couldn't be written.

Apart from anything else, I found the quote in Dyslexicae's sig about most women not being able to say "Lesbian" even when their mouth is full of one, quite funny. It rather reminds me of something I heard from a bisexual woman, about the mating call of the lesbian being "God! I'm soooo drunk..."

Finally, I don't know if I have the skill to carry this off, but I'm currently editing a story for a guy on here, it's a gay story, and although i don't think I'm the best person to do it, not being gay, I agreed to because apparently there's a shortage of guys willing to edit this genre [scratches head]. Anyway, it gave me an idea for a story of my own, which, if I can manage it, will definitely be going into the Humour category. If it ever gets written I'll post a link here.

Anyway, I've been writing this too long. time to stop.
 
I don't want to repeat your full post here Bert_Fegg. Yes the quote by Kate Clinton is funny at least for some of us but I don't think her joke would do much to convince some homophobic woman to stop hating lesbians.

What Kate proves it that as a lesbian she can use humor to change people's minds and hearts, which isn't at all the same as people who aren't lesbian making jokes about us.

Here's what she says about humor and how it can change the world.

Kate Clinton at TEDxWomen


Speaking of humor, here's some black humor. I'm not sure you dude's are going to find it funny but most of us are going at least giggle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trsDd75Ti-E
 
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Quite a debate on here, very much enjoyed following it.

I think We (hope so any way) are all against offensive jokes directed against Trangender people, and against offensive jokes against any minority. But I would also include against any group, yes also majorities.

My two penny worth are these points :
.
Contrary to Rowan Atkinson's assertion a couple of years ago, humour is not necessarily good at all. It was used by both Hitler and Stalin to destroy people in their show trials.
On a much lesser scale, I was bullied for a good (or rather bad) part of my time at school. Humour was much to the fore and horrible, often mixed with being kicked or punched.

Humour certainly can be wonderful, laughing with people, making friendships and love stronger.

It is not , IMO, OK to make jokes against blonde people, or for black people to make jokes about white people. Such jokes are still pointing to another group, the laugh shared between people not in the targeted group. Would any of us make a joke against blonde people to a blonde person ? Or would a black person make a joke against white people to a white person ? Not sure. It is still belittling, dehumanising. It is the same mistake as white racism against blacks, or hetero (so often spell that wrong LOL) making jokes against GLBT (or TBLG !!!) people.

We are individuals to be cherished, not rammed into a box. "Blondes are all thick", that is what is being said. I have made those jokes, and I am ashamed of myself for doing it. Right now thinking of my lovely niece who has white blonde hair. Anyone says she is thick and I will punch you (LOL)

Yet, I tell jokes (badly but that is me), laugh at jokes. Humour can be uplifting, fun, funny and not offend.
 
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Cool - let's agree to differ then.

I don't want to repeat your full post here Bert_Fegg. Yes the quote by Kate Clinton is funny at least for some of us but I don't think her joke would do much to convince some homophobic woman to stop hating lesbians.

What Kate proves it that as a lesbian she can use humor to change people's minds and hearts, which isn't at all the same as people who aren't lesbian making jokes about us.

Here's what she says about humor and how it can change the world.

Kate Clinton at TEDxWomen


Speaking of humor, here's some black humor. I'm not sure you dude's are going to find it funny but most of us are going at least giggle.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=trsDd75Ti-E
 
richfun,

I'm don't believe this, "or for black people to make jokes about white people." If a comedian does it in the right way those jokes don't need to be offensive and can bring people together, especially if the audience is of mixed races. It's a matter of privilege, he lack white privilege so whites can laugh with him. I'm not saying a white person can't do the same but it's so very much harder without being offensive.

Katt Williams White Friends

Personally I don't see anyway you can make trans issues humorous. I don't need to expand upon why other poster have already done so better than I'm capable of doing. Might I add the people making trans jokes aren't trying to point out issues they're making jokes at the expense of trans people to make others laugh
 
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