what makes a poem good?

Neonurotic said:

I feel the same most of the time reading New Poems and I'm sure I write some poems like that too. Several people could look at poem at once, but not see the same thing then all of them could be way off from what the poet intended. I don't have a problem if someone asks questions as long as they're not belittling about the asking.

ETA: for example, the poem I posted from years ago and reposted last year, Clever Like A Crow, there is only one person who saw the eroticism in it. It is an erotic poem that I disguised as non erotic to see if anyone would notice.

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Now I see that as a simile (at least I got that much) but not so much the eroticism. I do feel I am missing out on a lot by not asking, for fear of upsetting the poet. I myself have written poems and to me it's as clear as day, but from comments made it's completely slipped past everyone else i.e Riding the Tiger which was supposed to be about orgasm but as far as I know nobody else saw it as such!

I've asked poets to explain, and gotten positive responses. I think telling a poet that their meaning is not as clear as they (perhaps) want it to be is helpful. If any of mine ever confuse you, I'd want to know.

UnderYourSpell said:

Now I see that as a simile (at least I got that much) but not so much the eroticism. I do feel I am missing out on a lot by not asking, for fear of upsetting the poet. I myself have written poems and to me it's as clear as day, but from comments made it's completely slipped past everyone else i.e Riding the Tiger which was supposed to be about orgasm but as far as I know nobody else saw it as such!

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Sometimes the stream of consciousness loses all meaning once presented in written form. Sometimes there is a deliberate intent to make the meaning obscure, and the poet intends for the reader to "work for it" and decipher what she is reading. Other times the idea is to have the reader form her own interpretation or "truth", and the poem itself is little more than a framework for thought, pointing a certain way. And sometimes they are just cryptic, and that's that.

I don't see why one wouldn't be willing to talk about one's own work, after having exposed it in a public space.

Your poem "Riding the Tiger" is quite clear to me; the meaning of a "dash upwards" and then falling "broken and satiated" isn't all that difficult to understand. Certainly, you cannot "lie satiated" if you are really being attacked by a tiger. So it's a relatable description. I have recently written a poem about "surfing", of "climbing to the top of a wave and riding it until it was spent", and I suppose many other descriptions for this will be more or less the same. So I don't see how one could mistake your poem for something else.

twelveoone said:

so are most of us (over four) unless you measure time by the star of the dog
and as far as communities that pray together, often slay together, so, so much for my belief, but seriously
this thread
is the funniest by far,
for it is said,
if you can't parse it
well
maybe it isn't thar

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quite so.

parse thi poim to tha left hand syde

UnderYourSpell said:

I have a question to all and on searching around as to where I might ask it, I settled on here.
I have read poems and thought to myself I am sure that is a very good poem but it would help if I understood it more! So would you as a poet be pleased to be asked to explain or peeved that I have my thick head on and need to ask?!!

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i'd always hope someone asked me for clarification! i've asked others, loads of times

UnderYourSpell said:

Now I see that as a simile (at least I got that much) but not so much the eroticism. I do feel I am missing out on a lot by not asking, for fear of upsetting the poet. I myself have written poems and to me it's as clear as day, but from comments made it's completely slipped past everyone else i.e Riding the Tiger which was supposed to be about orgasm but as far as I know nobody else saw it as such!

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I think you worry too much about offending people. If you ask a sincere and honest question, those who take umbrage with you for that are the ones who should be concerned about offending others. I know I've offended folks with my replies but if they don't hang around to explain their reaction to me, how can I effect change for the better? Taking offense and failing to express it is paramount to not enjoying a food but never telling the cook that you would prefer not to eat mushrooms.

And if someone is offended that you ask questions about a posted piece of writing then they should definitely turn their email and comments off. That is their problem, not yours as a reader who would like to learn more.

One indication of a "Good Poem" for me is that I read it more than once.

Slowly.

UnderYourSpell said:

Now I see that as a simile (at least I got that much) but not so much the eroticism. I do feel I am missing out on a lot by not asking, for fear of upsetting the poet. I myself have written poems and to me it's as clear as day, but from comments made it's completely slipped past everyone else i.e Riding the Tiger which was supposed to be about orgasm but as far as I know nobody else saw it as such!

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Liked that poem but I never knew it was about an orgasm; with that fact in mind, it's a much more enjoyable read.

Neonurotic said:

I feel the same most of the time reading New Poems and I'm sure I write some poems like that too. Several people could look at poem at once, but not see the same thing then all of them could be way off from what the poet intended. I don't have a problem if someone asks questions as long as they're not belittling about the asking.

ETA: for example, the poem I posted from years ago and reposted last year, Clever Like A Crow, there is only one person who saw the eroticism in it. It is an erotic poem that I disguised as non erotic to see if anyone would notice.

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clever disguise why?

Desejo said:

One indication of a "Good Poem" for me is that I read it more than once.

Slowly.

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You always have good comments and suggestions, Desejo,

You're right about not wishing to offend and it's a hard to break attribute, the way I was brought up I suppose *she was poor but she was honest* (and if you google that it'll take you to what was then a risque Music Hall song!). I must learn in my advancing years to break tho old bonds of politeness at all costs! It's the British way or used to be!

I should probably post this in the 30/30 companion but the threads question call for this one for the simple reason that our old friend context coulors this poem far beyond the skill of the writer when you know this I'm going to sat that the juxtaposition between the two actions were quite clever, but knowledge raises it from merely accomplished to inspired.
shutting up now

HarryHill said:

I should probably post this in the 30/30 companion but the threads question call for this one for the simple reason that our old friend context coulors this poem far beyond the skill of the writer when you know this I'm going to sat that the juxtaposition between the two actions were quite clever, but knowledge raises it from merely accomplished to inspired.
shutting up now

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Thanks Harry. I'm glad you caught that. I was going to use Muezza's name, but I guess I didn't need to.

HarryHill said:

I should probably post this in the 30/30 companion but the threads question call for this one for the simple reason that our old friend context coulors this poem far beyond the skill of the writer when you know this I'm going to sat that the juxtaposition between the two actions were quite clever, but knowledge raises it from merely accomplished to inspired.
shutting up now

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I totally missed that. Indeed, I thought it worked even without knowledge of this Muezza. Of course, knowing of it peels the skin and reveals another layer, which is great. I wonder what else I might have missed in the 30/30 thread. Probably a lot.

HarryHill said:

I should probably post this in the 30/30 companion but the threads question call for this one for the simple reason that our old friend context coulors this poem far beyond the skill of the writer when you know this I'm going to sat that the juxtaposition between the two actions were quite clever, but knowledge raises it from merely accomplished to inspired.
shutting up now

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oh, that's good stuff, harry.. i missed that just as tsotha did. makes the piece a lot deeper than it first appeared. sneaky desejo.

Desejo said:

Thanks Harry. I'm glad you caught that. I was going to use Muezza's name, but I guess I didn't need to.

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you know what, though, desi - i didn't have the background knowledge to even see any signposts; maybe not using the name, but possibly a footnote or something might help mark the path we should be on. it's a shame to miss out on a writer's meanings when a little hint would go far. of course, there will be those familiar with the tale who don't need such directions. makes me look again at my own stuff with the eyes of the uninitiated... see i need to be clearer. *sigh*

Something you feel - it is stylish and heart felt. I want to feel what you are feeling, through your own words.

Sunndance07 said:

Something you feel - it is stylish and heart felt. I want to feel what you are feeling, through your own words.

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sounds good on the surface, but sometimes the best writers can make you feel things you believe they must be, even if they're not. they create a truth to the poem, even if it's all pure invention.

If more poets wrote like this, there would be a lot more people interested in poetry:

The Afterlife: Letter to Sam Hamill

BY HAYDEN CARRUTH

You may think it strange, Sam, that I'm writing
a letter in these circumstances. I thought
it strange too—the first time. But there's
a misconception I was laboring under, and you
are too, viz. that the imagination in your
vicinity is free and powerful. After all,
you say, you've been creating yourself all
along imaginatively. You imagine yourself
playing golf or hiking in the Olympics or
writing a poem and then it becomes true.
But you still have to do it, you have to exert
yourself, will, courage, whatever you've got, you're
mired in the unimaginative. Here I imagine a letter
and it's written. Takes about two-fifths of a
second, your time. Hell, this is heaven, man.
I can deluge Congress with letters telling
every one of those mendacious sons of bitches
exactly what he or she is, in maybe about
half an hour. In spite of your Buddhist
proclivities, when you imagine bliss
you still must struggle to get there. By the way
the Buddha has his place across town on
Elysian Drive. We call him Bud. He's lost weight
and got new dentures, and he looks a hell of a
lot better than he used to. He always carries
a jumping jack with him everywhere just
for contemplation, but he doesn't make it
jump. He only looks at it. Meanwhile Sidney
and Dizzy, Uncle Ben and Papa Yancey, are
over by Sylvester's Grot making the sweetest,
cheerfulest blues you ever heard. The air,
so called, is full of it. Poems are fluttering
everywhere like seed from a cottonwood tree.
Sam, the remarkable truth is I can do any
fucking thing I want. Speaking of which
there's this dazzling young Naomi who
wiped out on I-80 just west of Truckee
last winter, and I think this is the moment
for me to go and pay her my respects.
Don't go way. I'll be right back.


Source: Poetry (January 1999).

butters said:

oh, that's good stuff, harry.. i missed that just as tsotha did. makes the piece a lot deeper than it first appeared. sneaky desejo.

you know what, though, desi - i didn't have the background knowledge to even see any signposts; maybe not using the name, but possibly a footnote or something might help mark the path we should be on. it's a shame to miss out on a writer's meanings when a little hint would go far. of course, there will be those familiar with the tale who don't need such directions. makes me look again at my own stuff with the eyes of the uninitiated... see i need to be clearer. *sigh*

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I think poems should stand on their own. I did consider adding some clues to that poem, but it comes down to people building on their own experience. The story of Muezza is very well known in many parts of the world - but that doesn't mean they would have understood the reference either. Harry, I'm curious about how you did? Had you heard the tale before?

Desejo said:

I think poems should stand on their own. I did consider adding some clues to that poem, but it comes down to people building on their own experience. The story of Muezza is very well known in many parts of the world - but that doesn't mean they would have understood the reference either. Harry, I'm curious about how you did? Had you heard the tale before?

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Too many years to remember exactly, I do know that the memory byte was about a Persian/Chinese emperor. was surprised when Mohammad's name came up. I must have read a Christianized/purified story. I expect there are quite a few versions.

HarryHill said:

Too many years to remember exactly, I do know that the memory byte was about a Persian/Chinese emperor. was surprised when Mohammad's name came up. I must have read a Christianized/purified story. I expect there are quite a few versions.

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I'd read about it before, but I didn't make the connection because derpity derp. *shakes head*

Bump for cleardaynow

What makes a poem good?

A good book is one that you want to keep reading to see what happens next. You don't want to put it down. After you have finished it, you read it again and again.

I read both The Hobbit and The Lord Of The Rings once a year for four consecutive years. The size was never an obstacle.

A poem should be no different.

However, I find that the fewer words utilized, the less I become engaged with a poem. It is over too quickly. You have my undivided attention for as long as you want. I may have to cook supper, play fetch with the dog, change the stinky litter box, drive to the market, mow the lawn and so forth ..... but I'll return to pick up where I left off when I get the opportunity.

Don't squander your opportunity to have your creation experienced again and again by giving me a sentence or a few lines that may or may not even contain a glint of poetitude.

Matryoshka said:

I was wondering how long it usually takes for a poem submission to be posted usually?

My second question is...I've seen some of the reviews where a poem is torn apart because it doesn't fit expectations of syllables or poem type. Isn't it the content and meaning that is truly important? Not everyone feels the same about a subject, but if the poem shows you a glimpse of what the poet sees, feels etc, hasn't it done it's job? To be honest I'm extremely nervous about those reviews on my first poem I was finally brave enough to share.

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Hi Matryoshka. I'm not sure, since I'm (more or less) new here, but you seem like a newcomer. So welcome to the poetry board.

I do not know the answer to your first question, since I haven't submitted a poem, myself. However, I imagine it takes about the same time as story submissions. There is a thread in the author's hangout board where Laurel (the site admin, who goes through every submission) says how long it's taking for submissions to be accepted.

Your second question is a bit more complex to answer. A few points:

1) There are people here writing free verse, form, rhyming, anything goes. Some people stick with one way of writing, others are learning and go all over. Some have been writing for a very long time, some are new to poetry. There is a place for everyone.

2) Each person has a way of giving feedback. Personally, I think feedback should contain two qualities: encouragement and constructive criticism. Encouragement is something that all need, to some degree, because really, why else is anyone even sharing what they write? Constructive criticism is whatever a reader feels / thinks as a result of reading your poem.

Many newbies are very attached to their poems. They feel like that one poem they wrote about their dying dog is the best poem *ever*. The thing is, it probably isn't. It's probably really bad, because you must write a hundred bad poems to get a so-so poem. And even if it is, it can probably be made better. Editing and iterative reworking of your poem is important.

The more experienced poets learn to detach themselves, even if the subject is very close to heart. They are interested in the art, in the technical side of writing. The sooner one learns to accept that criticism isn't "harsh", the better.

Some people here are really experienced poets. They have a vast amount of knowledge, acquired through reading thousands upon thousands of poems and from writing many, many horribly bad poems. They "see" things others don't. When they say something about your poem, you damn well seize the opportunity to learn.

With that said, watch out for those who are malicious, giving feedback not for your benefit, but to demonstrate how superior they are. They will tip toe the line between insult and civility, baiting you into an emotional response. Put those on (mental) ignore and never look back. They are a waste of your time, harmful to your improvement on every level (and also to your mental health).

There are many threads here about what is a poem, what is a good poem (this thread), prose vs. poetry, and so on. I recommend you read all of them. Also, read and comment poems, it's the best way to improve. Pay attention to what other (experienced) poets are saying, but make up your own mind about what works and what doesn't work. And get in the forum here and participate in the challenges / writing threads (writing live, e.g.), there are some good people here who will (gently) try to show you all the ways you're doing it wrong.

Most important, have fun.

Tsotha said:

Hi Matryoshka. I'm not sure, since I'm (more or less) new here, but you seem like a newcomer. So welcome to the poetry board.

It's probably really bad, because you must write a hundred bad poems to get a so-so poem. And even if it is, it can probably be made better. Editing and iterative reworking of your poem is important.

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Oh, Jesus, just don't submit them, not all at once.
Read, write, Edit, Shoot (Alright forget the fourth step, even though it seemed like a good idea at the time)

twelveoone said:

Oh, Jesus, just don't submit them, not all at once.
Read, write, Edit, Shoot (Alright forget the fourth step, even though it seemed like a good idea at the time)

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I haven't submitted a poem yet because I feel I should only submit something I believe to be good. The forum, however, with the writing live / challenge threads, is like a shared notebook, where people drop in to comment on your attempts to learn. At least, that is my take on it...

Tsotha said:

I haven't submitted a poem yet because I feel I should only submit something I believe to be good. The forum, however, with the writing live / challenge threads, is like a shared notebook, where people drop in to comment on your attempts to learn. At least, that is my take on it...

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good boy, however, you do have some good stuff, and that is another side over there.
There is no such thing as a perfect poem, unless it is pureed properly, and sanctified by the pontiffs of poetology.
A bribe may help.

twelveoone said:

good boy, however, you do have some good stuff, and that is another side over there.
There is no such thing as a perfect poem, unless it is pureed properly, and sanctified by the pontiffs of poetology.
A bribe may help.

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I might try submitting something, soon... Indeed, there are people commenting over there that don't come here, so it might be interesting, to see how different people react.