What is poly?

Obviously I need to clarify what I meant by "suck up & deal." I agree, there are times when we have to buckle down and just cope.

What I meant, though, is that the kinds of stresses that can crop up in a poly relationship absolutely need to be talked out, not just buried. Otherwise, sometimes, harmful assumptions can be made, conclusions jumped to, imagined slights exaggerated because of silence.

To me, it seems that there are always going to be things that need to "sucked up and dealt" with. People are not going to be able to adjust themselves and circumstances until everything fits perfectly.
The problem arises when someone tries to "suck up and deal" in silence, in my experience.
They are sometimes enduring things that could have been changed, sometimes not being as silent as they think with resentment and frustration starts creeping into the relationship without anyone really being clear on why.

Those who suffer in silence sometime do so to make other people happy, not realizing the are taking away the choice from their partner and deciding about the other persons happiness over their head.
Another thing that often ties in to this is that I shouldn't (have to) ask for the thing that makes me happy. They should do that for me of their own accord.

So sure, other people and situations can make me happy but it is ultimately my responsibility to seek them out and be open with them about what I need to be happy.
I don't mind doing things to make my loved ones happy, but I know it only works if I communicate with them about their needs and if they want to be happy.

I think I know what you are saying, IA...
I once worked with a small group. We would always speak up when our birthday was approaching and the group would chip in and buy a cake. One lady was all attitude and angry one day, and when we asked her what the problem was... it was her birthday. And surprise surprise, no cake. Why not, you ask? Well ok, I think you know... she hadn't publicized the fact that it was her birthday. When I pointed out that she didn't exactly follow etiquette and let us know, she said... "Well I did mention it about 3 months ago. I can't believe nobody remembered" WTF?? No, we didn't remember. And no, we don't read minds. And no, she didn't get a cake that year.
Is that what you mean?
I can see where the potential for not feeling comfortable in all things and speaking up about them might be amplified in a group setting, so to speak. But I can also see where this could be a highly personal thing as well. Personally, I think I would never have a problem speaking up But after reading Wenchie' s post, I get it. I might not want to speak up if I thought I was interfering in the relationship of the other two parties involved.
This brings me to my next question.. posted soon.

Earliest established ties in a triad

So I am going to make the assumption that a triad does not form all at once. That two people are together first, and then a third person is somehow invited in. Overlooking the standard BDSM arguments of... Does a sub hold power, have equal rights, etc... let's overlook all that for a moment.

The question is, how do you deal with a third person in society? I.e., has anyone here gone out with both partners and been ill treated by society in some way? Or worse yet, have you gone out into public with the "newer" partner and been afraid or unable to publicly show affection towards them because of negative repercussions either to the other partner, or yourself? I imagine in a typical, monogamous society you would be seen as "cheating" on the earliest established partner.

Also, if you live together, how do you handle things like covering another person on a health insurance policy? Or making financial arrangements as you would for any permanent partner?

Collar_N_Cuffs said:

So I am going to make the assumption that a triad does not form all at once. That two people are together first, and then a third person is somehow invited in.

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I think that's the most common way, yeah.

The question is, how do you deal with a third person in society? I.e., has anyone here gone out with both partners and been ill treated by society in some way? Or worse yet, have you gone out into public with the "newer" partner and been afraid or unable to publicly show affection towards them because of negative repercussions either to the other partner, or yourself? I imagine in a typical, monogamous society you would be seen as "cheating" on the earliest established partner.

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Back when I was in a triad with, let's call them Anne and Barbara:

Anne and I were a long-established couple. We didn't make a secret of the fact that we were poly, but we didn't make a fuss about it either. Barbara also had a long-term partner Charles, and he didn't want people knowing they were poly, so we had to keep things fairly discreet. (I don't think many of our friends would have been bothered by it, but he was... well, in hindsight, I think he was in denial about the fact that he really wasn't happy with Barbara having other partners, and he didn't want anybody else hearing about it.)

It wasn't a huge issue during the relationship. People knew we were all close friends, even if they didn't realise we were sleeping with one another, and since it was a LDR it was natural that we'd stay at one another's places when in the same town.

I didn't tell my family about the relationship until after my mother died; she would have been very worried about it, and we had enough other crap to deal with without upsetting her with something she'd never had accepted. I feel sad that I had to conceal that part of my life from her, but if I had my time again I'd make the same call.

It was actually more of an issue after I broke up with Barbara. I mentioned it on my blog, and while I was careful NOT to identify her - to the point where several people thought I was talking about somebody else entirely - she felt I'd outed her and her partner and was furious. (Or possibly she'd already decided to be furious and picked that as something to be furious about.)

Later on I had experience of being the unacknowledged member of a V - my sweetie wasn't/isn't out as poly. I think it would've been OK if that was the only stressor in the relationship, but as it was I had a couple of other triggers for insecurity and not a lot of contact time with my sweetie, so it got a bit difficult seeing my sweetie being willing to express affection for their partner in public, but not for me. I'd have been a lot happier if we'd been able to be open about the relationship, but it's hard to work these things out.

Also, if you live together, how do you handle things like covering another person on a health insurance policy? Or making financial arrangements as you would for any permanent partner?

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I've never been in that situation, but my advice would be "get legal advice". Even if somebody else has a solution that worked for them, different jurisdictions might require a different approach.

You would also want to consider issues like medical powers of attorney, hospital visiting rights, and guardianship of children etc.

Endless_Night said:

The issue with poly, at least for me, is that it tosses a completely alien component into the relationship ring. When you've been together for a while you know, or at least have a good idea, how you're both going to react when a new stress is introduced. With poly I feel like I'm going in blind. I have no idea how adding a new sex partner into the mix is going to affect either one of us. And since this is my idea I'll feel responsible if it creates any unhappiness.

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Honestly, you can't know. Oh sure, you can plan and work out all the details in your head, but ultimately you are adding in another person with their own personality and their own feelings. Oh yeah, and then feelings can change and adapt. Then there is the whole issue of play partners developing deeper feelings... it's like throwing a wrench into a spinning dryer. It may go in and spin nicely, or it could come back and smack you in the face.

This is why it is so important to communicate. Even when it's hard. Even if it is just with one and not the other, if you feel like you can't approach one of them. I can't stress how important it is to communicate, and that's just in any relationship. Do not assume that some one should/does just know how you feel about something. They don't know what you're thinking/feeling any more than you know what they are. So open up!

Collar_N_Cuffs said:

So I am going to make the assumption that a triad does not form all at once. That two people are together first, and then a third person is somehow invited in. Overlooking the standard BDSM arguments of... Does a sub hold power, have equal rights, etc... let's overlook all that for a moment.

The question is, how do you deal with a third person in society? I.e., has anyone here gone out with both partners and been ill treated by society in some way? Or worse yet, have you gone out into public with the "newer" partner and been afraid or unable to publicly show affection towards them because of negative repercussions either to the other partner, or yourself? I imagine in a typical, monogamous society you would be seen as "cheating" on the earliest established partner.

Also, if you live together, how do you handle things like covering another person on a health insurance policy? Or making financial arrangements as you would for any permanent partner?

Click to expand...

We have different rules of behavior depending on where we are and who we are with. Mr. is always a lot more affectionate with Mrs. in public than he is with me (which has gone through various states of "who gets more" through the years), he will sneak a kiss here and there, or hug me, or brush against me, pat my ass...etc. Just how often depends on if we are in a place where that might have repercussions later or not (ie will they run into family/friends who don't know about their lifestyle).

Now if we are at this night club that we visit (quite a bit less frequently than we used to) then he can play with me a bit more openly, and I with him. Ultimately Mrs. will be getting the most attention though (which she should). And once I start getting overly affectionate with her (usually molesting her in some way) she cuts off my drinking.

I don't exactly live with them, but I do spend up to half the week at their house. Enough that I have learned the routine for the dogs, can let myself in, keep clothes there and pretty much claim a room/bed as my own. I'm sure this looks strange to the neighbors, but if there have been any comments, I've been sheltered from them.

Their friends have accepted me as well, and her family (I haven't met any of his). And they met my mom early on (she insisted quite early on meeting them). And to the majority of people we meet I'm their "friend wenchie" and it's left at that. What we do with whom and how is no one's business. We don't throw it in other people's faces, but we don't exactly hide it either. We just act appropriately in what ever situation we are in, what ever would be polite.

Honestly, I do hold back a lot more in public with them together than I would with just me and Jounar. But it's kind of been an unwritten rule that we leave how much people know about our relationship up to Mrs. as she is the one most sensitive to what other people say/think. Mr. and I could give a flying fuck, but it would bother her.

So to the best of my knowledge, no one has been treated poorly because of PDA when the three of us are out. Though we may get a variety of looks ranging from disgust to pity to envy. But, looks can't really hurt.

Endless_Night said:

The issue with poly, at least for me, is that it tosses a completely alien component into the relationship ring. When you've been together for a while you know, or at least have a good idea, how you're both going to react when a new stress is introduced. With poly I feel like I'm going in blind. I have no idea how adding a new sex partner into the mix is going to affect either one of us. And since this is my idea I'll feel responsible if it creates any unhappiness.

Which is really intimidating. Particularly as neither of us want to change our dynamics. It seems like such a...roll of the dice.

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It is a gamble. Anybody who goes into polyamory thinking they know exactly how it's going to work out is kidding themselves. Sometimes it strengthens the pre-existing relationship, sometimes it undermines it.

But then nothing in life is risk-free. Your dynamics will change sooner or later, with or without poly. Time passes, and even if you're not seeking out complications life will throw them at you anyway.

A couple of years after I got into a long-term poly relationship, my family got hit by a whole heap of bad luck that ended up killing four people, my mother among them. I took it pretty hard; my partner was doing her best to support me and my mother (before her death), but my lover was there for me too. That relationship ended a couple of years later; it was pretty acrimonious and she and I are (to put it mildly) no longer friends, but I'm still grateful for the support she gave me when I needed it, which helped take some of the load off my partner.

So, yeah, it's a gamble, but there are wins as well as losses.

FWIW, I found The Ethical Slut, which Bramblethorn recommended earlier, to be a terrific resource on this subject. In fact, i think it contains a solid answer to just about every question that has been raised in the thread.

I don't mean to say that the personal observations taken from life aren't valuable, as that experience brings great weight to the posts that contain them. This has been, all in all, one of the most informative and civil discussions in the forum in a good while.

midwestyankee said:

FWIW, I found The Ethical Slut, which Bramblethorn recommended earlier, to be a terrific resource on this subject. In fact, i think it contains a solid answer to just about every question that has been raised in the thread.

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Call it a qualified recommendation. I think TES is worth reading, especially since it helps identify some of the issues that might need to be discussed ahead of time, but shouldn't be taken as gospel. For my tastes the "own your emotions" bit was good advice taken too far.

Another useful resource is "More Than Two": http://www.morethantwo.com/polyamory.html

Collar_N_Cuffs said:

I think I know what you are saying, IA...
I once worked with a small group. We would always speak up when our birthday was approaching and the group would chip in and buy a cake. One lady was all attitude and angry one day, and when we asked her what the problem was... it was her birthday. And surprise surprise, no cake. Why not, you ask? Well ok, I think you know... she hadn't publicized the fact that it was her birthday. When I pointed out that she didn't exactly follow etiquette and let us know, she said... "Well I did mention it about 3 months ago. I can't believe nobody remembered" WTF?? No, we didn't remember. And no, we don't read minds. And no, she didn't get a cake that year.
Is that what you mean?
I can see where the potential for not feeling comfortable in all things and speaking up about them might be amplified in a group setting, so to speak. But I can also see where this could be a highly personal thing as well. Personally, I think I would never have a problem speaking up But after reading Wenchie' s post, I get it. I might not want to speak up if I thought I was interfering in the relationship of the other two parties involved.
This brings me to my next question.. posted soon.

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This is very much what I mean.
I'm allergic to that style of communication.
No, I will not feel pressured to do whatever it is you want and if I do, it's my problem.
No, I will not get mad about it either.
Just please tell me what's on your mind and I'll decide what I want to do about it.
I don't appreciate when the decision is made over my head or behind my back.

I had a friend who used to do this to the men she was with. She never said anything about things that were a problem for her, the guys never got a chance to do something about it and one day out of the blue, she'd leave.
Nothing we said to her about it ever helped because " if he doesn't get it on his own, it's not worth it".

the captians wench said:

Honestly, you can't know. Oh sure, you can plan and work out all the details in your head, but ultimately you are adding in another person with their own personality and their own feelings. Oh yeah, and then feelings can change and adapt. Then there is the whole issue of play partners developing deeper feelings... it's like throwing a wrench into a spinning dryer. It may go in and spin nicely, or it could come back and smack you in the face.

Click to expand...

Bramblethorn said:

It is a gamble. Anybody who goes into polyamory thinking they know exactly how it's going to work out is kidding themselves. Sometimes it strengthens the pre-existing relationship, sometimes it undermines it.

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This is an excellent point. I'm so anxious to control how going poly will look that I'm losing sight of the fact that it's unrealistic to hope for a guaranteed outcome. I think in our situation it's really a case of weigh the risks and either take the plunge, or not.

Which really throws it all back on me. My SO is willing to open up the relationship for my benefit. I guess I just need to decide if I'd prefer to keep the status quo or take a risk and go forward.

Thanks!

Thank you everyone!! All very informative and thought provoking.
And forming an opinion of my own on a triad. Trust in myself, trust in my relationship(s), trust in my partner(s). Sorted
Oh yeah. PS - communication!

Endless_Night said:

This is an excellent point. I'm so anxious to control how going poly will look that I'm losing sight of the fact that it's unrealistic to hope for a guaranteed outcome. I think in our situation it's really a case of weigh the risks and either take the plunge, or not.

Which really throws it all back on me. My SO is willing to open up the relationship for my benefit. I guess I just need to decide if I'd prefer to keep the status quo or take a risk and go forward.

Thanks!

Click to expand...

Just keep in mind that there is no such thing as status quo in a long term relationship.
Things will change over time whether you do something or don't.
I'm not trying to say that you should just go for it. Absolutely do take your time with a decision like this.

IrisAlthea said:

Just keep in mind that there is no such thing as status quo in a long term relationship.
Things will change over time whether you do something or don't.
I'm not trying to say that you should just go for it. Absolutely do take your time with a decision like this.

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You're right, of course, change in any long-term relationship is inevitable. It's just once I hit a familiar stride in a relationship it's pretty easy to see how the cat will jump. Poly is such new territory I have no clue.

Taking time with the decision is perfect advice. I've just been sitting on the fence for so long I've wrapped myself into a cocoon of indecision.

Is it evident yet that I have control issues?

Maybe I just need a pair of industrial strength shears.

Hydraulic scissors for you, I think

Collar_N_Cuffs said:

Hydraulic scissors for you, I think

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I knew I could count on you!

I've always wanted a dom/sub poly relationship and have educated myself about it and spoken to people who have been in that lifestyle. It's a lot more complex than many realize.

You should have Mercy on you

Triads, again...

So then, has anyone here ever been in or witnessed a triad where all three partners are on equally firm footing??

Collar_N_Cuffs said:

So then, has anyone here ever been in or witnessed a triad where all three partners are on equally firm footing??

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No because I've never seen a relationship between two people where this is the case. The sands on which relationships stand are never stagnant, and the thing is whether you're interested in being on the same beach at all.

Collar_N_Cuffs said:

So then, has anyone here ever been in or witnessed a triad where all three partners are on equally firm footing??

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What exactly do you mean by "equally firm footing" ? Are you referring to stability or that all 3 are equally important to each other?

Netzach said:

No because I've never seen a relationship between two people where this is the case. The sands on which relationships stand are never stagnant, and the thing is whether you're interested in being on the same beach at all.

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So true.

Netzach said:

No because I've never seen a relationship between two people where this is the case. The sands on which relationships stand are never stagnant, and the thing is whether you're interested in being on the same beach at all.

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Yeah, this. The only place where you get neat symmetric relationships is in fiction.

Bramblethorn said:

Yeah, this. The only place where you get neat symmetric relationships is in fiction.

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Or neat asymmetric ones, for that matter.

ecstaticsub said:

What exactly do you mean by "equally firm footing" ? Are you referring to stability or that all 3 are equally important to each other?

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Both, I think. A relationship where there is not an established, sort of Alpha pair plus one more. A relationship where all three partners have an equal part.
Think about 3 siblings. Ok. Now think about 2 siblings, and a parent gets remarried and a step-sibling is brought in. Most of the relationships sound like the latter, and I am wondering if anyone had ever achieved anything more like the former.