Husband not into bdsm so...

Netzach said:

Judging from the high volume of people in their 50's who are third-ish-non-cousins-who-are-actually-half-brothers-and-sisters-and-more-or-less-know-it-cause-dad-was-away-sometimes in the small towns around me, non-monogamy seems to be the reality of "monogamous traditional marriage." (And not every woman involved was single either.) If something approaches a third of all relationships (someone going outside it) why can't we just accept that the norm isn't the ideal and that the ideal may not be realistic for all people? If you want it and you've got it, hooray for you, you know, but really it's not necessarily something we must all expect.

Discourse around this topic never gets past the equivalent of "Drugs are bad."

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I think you're quite right that we might need to expect other things from marriage and that monogamous might not be a working model for everyone.

I'm just a huge fan of the idea that everyone in the marriage should be on the same page when it comes to what is expected in their particular relationship.
In other kinds of relationships too, actually.

Primalex said:

Funny thing, because most big reasons are not really big reasons. A divorce is just a divorce. Cheating itself - the universe doesn't care at all. Being stuck in a sexless marriage is no problem if you already have the sex-problem solved.

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Lack of sex might not be a problem in itself, in that situation. But that particular method of "solving" the sex-problem has a way of causing other problems; I already discussed some of them up above.

So what are the honking big reasons you see, if it is not the possible fallout of your actions?

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Oh, it's all about "possible fallout of your actions". I just don't consider that "he might shoot you for it" is one of the bigger threats there, compared to some of the less dramatic but far more likely consequences that tend to arise from that stuff.

Gianbattista said:

I'm saying there is a choice that we can make or don't have to. I am not opposed to non monogamy ( I'd be a hypocritical based on previous relationship dynamics of different shapes if I were) but I am opposed to making a commitment based on monogamy when you know you are not going to commit to that. ( its entirely possible to agree a non monogamous marriage for example, or different 'shape' relationship that includes marriage somewhere).

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I think of it like this: suppose my observant Jewish friend is coming to dinner, and half an hour before he gets there I realise that the meal I've cooked for him isn't kosher - pig gelatine, traces of shrimp in the sauce, whatever. If I tell him, he won't eat it, and the evening will be spoiled.

I'm not religious; I can give a pretty good argument for why his dietary requirements are entirely unnecessary, nothing more than tradition based in superstition. And I'm pretty sure that if I don't tell him, he'll never notice that he's eating treif.

But for me, friendship means that I respect his right to make choices about his life even when I don't agree with those choices. I'd sooner tell him and upset our dinner plans than override his autonomy "for his own good". (Noting that when people want to override others "for their own good", it's funny how often that happens to coincide with the speaker's interest.) If I really find his preferences so unreasonable/objectionable that I can't give him honesty, maybe we shouldn't be friends any more.

I can understand that sometimes people make a commitment without understanding what it's going to feel like ten years down the road, and sometimes breaking a badly-judged commitment is the least bad option. But like you say, making a commitment when you know you're not going to keep it... that's another kettle of fish.

IrisAlthea said:

I think you're quite right that we might need to expect other things from marriage and that monogamous might not be a working model for everyone.

I'm just a huge fan of the idea that everyone in the marriage should be on the same page when it comes to what is expected in their particular relationship.
In other kinds of relationships too, actually.

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Same. Totally. I, personally, can't see how it's not best, but unless I'm involved, not my pig not my farm, I have no idea what's best or kindest for other people in the complicated world of "what she won't understand" or whatever.

I'm not going to make any decisions for anyone else or automatically cast the bad guy, or assume that the other party isn't doing the same or more or worse.

I always assume that the speaker knows slightly more about their spouse than I do, call me arrogant that way. And I always return to the fact that I'm talking to a bit of an asshole as well.

Gianbattista said:

But that's not what I'm saying ( drugs are bad) .and you are more optimistic on marriage than I am, because it would include divorce figures in discussion!

I'm saying there is a choice that we can make or don't have to. I am not opposed to non monogamy ( I'd be a hypocritical based on previous relationship dynamics of different shapes if I were) but I am opposed to making a commitment based on monogamy when you know you are not going to commit to that. ( its entirely possible to agree a non monogamous marriage for example, or different 'shape' relationship that includes marriage somewhere).

I'm not saying we should all expect monogamy, or marriage. In fact, I made it clear I thought, that it thought it was ideal that this was no longer a social or economic requirement for women. And why not being committed has benefits for all sometimes.

But I think we should all be able to expect 'contractual obligations fulfilled' or contracts agreed to be frustrated if we fail.

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If you don't think marriage and monogamy are social performances required and expected of every *person* along with heterosexuality, still, today, now, then I don't quite know what to say. Yeah, we are not magically "over it."

I'm saying that the more we need to disclose every single thing about ourselves and blog our last meal and our cat's nervous breakdown - the more apparent it will become that performances are performances, the more holes will be poked in the illusions that we could quite comfortably live with before we had to open up our collective yap.

It's a really bad thing and a not-nice thing and a not smart thing to have an extracurricular relationship that your partner does not know about.

No shit. And most of the people freaking out about it are doing much worse things or equally worse things every day.

What's more important is why is that happening, what's it telling you, and what are you going to do? What are you running to and from? What impulses drove this? What's being run to and from?

Or you can just self-flagellate and feel horrible guilt every time you look at the other person forever, and never figure out anything else, I guess. I too think that the OP is making a huge mistake, and a bigger mess that will have the same result, hopefully sooner than later so everyone can get on with life. I just don't think that the sleeping with the random is as much a part of the mistake itself as ignoring what would cause her to want to.

Bruisedgirl said:

Thank you.

I think you've hit the nail right on the spot. That I love him like a brother and he's a best friend to me. But no one (not even the naysayers tho I really understand where you're coming from) can fault me for not trying to ignite the passion. Maybe I should have dipped my toes into bdsm years ago, say during the halfway mark but I was young and afraid to be alone and thought things might change.

Also, I cannot imagine him being a dom or even being rough w him in bed. I can't even bring myself to look at him in the eyes when we fuck (something which I found I enjoy doing w my dom because I love the intensity I am making him feel)

Yes, all these are signs of a doomed marriage. But I will go along with it. Not because he's there to stand in till I find someone aligned w my needs, but to fulfil the responsibilities we both have.

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If you're pregnant I at least kind of understand intellectually why you feel like you have to? If not, I think you're romanticizing the whole idea of obligation and responsibility, honestly. Obligation and responsibility to self is the hardest motherfucker, and people are going to hate you for it, sometimes. They'll get over it, though, give 'em about 60-180 days, otherwise they never loved you, you don't need to worry about them, maybe they'll surprise you in another year.

Gianbattista said:

Hmm, that's not quite what I said. . Though I see I also did not credit quite where you stood on being candid, and thus, I think we are more in agreement than I realised. Will a rose do instead of an olive branch

Marriage, no, its not expected. Women we are allowed to own our own property, buy houses even hold our own debt and have jobs .....( I pause here, I realise my delivery here does not come with the wry smile that perhaps only I know I have? ). Its not required marriage. In the ( majority) of west its no longer considered heinous to be other than heterosexual. I'm not pretending every one loves homosexuality, but people are not required to conceal their sexuality. Polyamory and relationships of shapes other than two.....however, yes, I agree, this is still 'taboo'......extraordinarily the exclusion to this through time is the extramarital affaire, by both sexes, (but usually ...as sexism was raised...though I agree not here, to the detriment of the women in the arrangement).

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That's not the point I'm making. The point I'm making is when you're a kid and people say "when you get married, and..." which everyone does. The point I'm making is that when a middle aged guy says "I've never been married" he's suddenly an object of suspicion and pity. It's made very VERY clear in the way that people relate to one another that it's better to be married than not, better to be partnered than solo, and completely fucking unacceptable to be in an open relationship, while being acceptable to cheat so long as no one finds out about it. It's made clear to us the minute we pop out of mom.

If you find my responses less than charitable toward this type of relationship because it is foisted off on us as the BEST type of relationship every fucking place you turn, too bad so sad.

You can blithely ignore that it might be really terrifying to back out of this thing close to the wire because "we don't have to get married anymore" but I think you're being unrealistic. Everyone can say "you must come clean and be honest" but this is one case where maybe "The enormitiy of this is just too much, I have to wait another 6 months and that's all I know! " might be a good transitional move. I'd also put magic dick on hold for same, but that's not always within our conscious control, anyone who acts like it is has never felt it.

It's terrific for all of us to sit in the bleachers and yell "come clean! stop cheating! call it off!" but honestly, what's the point? You have to actually listen to the person and accept that SHE feels like she's sacrificed her sexual satisfaction for this other person for 8 years, you have to accept that FOR HER the obligation to go through with this is real, huge, and tangible and makes sense, even if to you it makes no sense - etc. etc. I take it we all know or think we know what we'd do, exactly.

Gianbattista said:

I am afraid the language of some of this second section is beyond me. Is 'magic dick' the dom? Six months of everything on hold seems a sensible move. Is the saying not 'if you don't know what to do, do nothing at all' or something like that?

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Yeah "magic penis" is what I call a fling we can't be sensible about, which is most.

And yes, that's what I'm saying to say you're doing at least. For the sake of sanity, including your own.

Netzach said:

That's not the point I'm making. The point I'm making is when you're a kid and people say "when you get married, and..." which everyone does.

It's terrific for all of us to sit in the bleachers and yell "come clean! stop cheating! call it off!" but honestly, what's the point? You have to actually listen to the person and accept that SHE feels like she's sacrificed her sexual satisfaction for this other person for 8 years, you have to accept that FOR HER the obligation to go through with this is real, huge, and tangible and makes sense, even if to you it makes no sense - etc. etc. I take it we all know or think we know what we'd do, exactly.

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I think there might be a bit of a cultural difference when it comes to how much you're expected to get married.

Sure, not my pig, not my farm either and I'm not very invested in any yelling or preaching.
OP did come here for advice on the situation though and my advice would still be to consider the fact that you are robbing the other person of the possibility of making an informed choice.
Put it on hold, like you suggested, would be a possible outcome of this consideration.

As you say, things like OP's sense of obligation to go through with this might be real and tangible. When making up her mind about how to go on with this though, I think it is valuable information that not everyone thinks like that.

I can understand your desire and conflicted emotions and I am unequivocally not qualified to sit in judgment. But having cheated myself I must say that the key and perhaps only relevant question in this situation is would your husband be accepting of you having extra marital sex?

If the answer is no, for you to go ahead and marry then cheat on him is literally robbing him of the opportunity to live the life he wants to live. You aren't a passive observer but someone knowingly and deliberately deceiving him and denying him, as Netzach noted, the right to make an informed choice.

It is a basic premise of human interaction and justice that the intensity with which you want something does not justify fucking over someone else to get it. You must explore your feelings to find a way forward, but they are irrelevant to whether it is ok to cheat or not.

please take some time to think about this. i hope that the wedding is a not coming up really quick. i'm just dumbfounded. i understand calling off a wedding would be upsetting to your fiance, your family, his family and friends but getting married due to the pressure and expectation doesn't seem like a good reason. it sounds like you are setting out to get married with the expectation of getting divorced down the road. this whole situation isn't fair to anyone - your needs aren't being met in the relationship, your fiance is in the dark about what is going on with you and can't even make an informed choice about the future of your relationship and so on. if none of the current issues feel like reasons to not get married, consider how everyone is going to feel when you get divorced and this whole thing blows up. another consideration is the cost of all of this. a wedding and a divorce cost a huge chunk of change. i don't know what it's like to live in your shoes but i don't think this marriage is giving anyone a shot at a happy future. i think there is probably someone out there that is a better match for you and i'd hate to see you miss that future opportunity. i'm also concerned for your safety with the dom you found since you are doing it so anonymously. i don't see how that develops a foundation of trust to work from.

luvnmyboys said:

please take some time to think about this. i hope that the wedding is a not coming up really quick.

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According to the OP, the wedding is next week. (On the 11th, she said "in 15 days.")

I'm a grouchy cunt today so I'm calling bullshit on this.

If it is for real, OP, either grow a set and call the wedding off, or shut the fuck up whining. Both are options you can take charge of. I really don't give a fuck about the statistics of cheating within marriages, or for arguing the semantics on whether your decision to fuck someone behind your (potential) husband's back can be morally justified.

This whole 'he doesn't/won't/can't give me what I need so I get it elsewhere' is beyond selfish. This is a situation of your own making, I have no sympathy.

policywank said:

I can understand your desire and conflicted emotions and I am unequivocally not qualified to sit in judgment. But having cheated myself I must say that the key and perhaps only relevant question in this situation is would your husband be accepting of you having extra marital sex?

If the answer is no, for you to go ahead and marry then cheat on him is literally robbing him of the opportunity to live the life he wants to live. You aren't a passive observer but someone knowingly and deliberately deceiving him and denying him, as Netzach noted, the right to make an informed choice.

It is a basic premise of human interaction and justice that the intensity with which you want something does not justify fucking over someone else to get it. You must explore your feelings to find a way forward, but they are irrelevant to whether it is ok to cheat or not.

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THIS. *applauds* Since you are asking for advice OP, I am firmly on the side of calling things off. It will be hard; you will cry and there will be hurt feelings all around. This is nothing compared to a lifetime of lies. Bite the bullet and end things now and give BOTH of you the best shot at lasting happiness, whether that happiness ends up monogamous or not for you, this isn't a situation that sounds likely to produce happiness for anyone.

butterfly_flip said:

I'm a grouchy cunt today so I'm calling bullshit on this.

If it is for real, OP, either grow a set and call the wedding off, or shut the fuck up whining. Both are options you can take charge of. I really don't give a fuck about the statistics of cheating within marriages, or for arguing the semantics on whether your decision to fuck someone behind your (potential) husband's back can be morally justified.

This whole 'he doesn't/won't/can't give me what I need so I get it elsewhere' is beyond selfish. This is a situation of your own making, I have no sympathy.

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I'm a grouchy fuck today, so I'll pile on.

OP has three choices here.

1. Call the wedding off.
2. Get married and stay faithful.
3. Get married and cheat.

All of them have their prices. That's how it is. Do you want to lose a man you love, lose your sexual interest and put up with an unfulfilling sex life, or roll the dice and risk losing it all? I can't make that decision for another person.

So from a strictly cost-benefit standpoint, take whatever decision has the price you're willing to pay. And in this case, you're going to have to sacrifice something. You got yourself into this situation where you have to make a decision. So fucking make it.

And if you choose option 3, for the love of all that's holy and good, write stories about your experiences. After this thread, I (and I'll hazard a guess others here) believe you owe us something like that.

I had this exact same situation with my husband before we married. Same problems, only we were a bit older than you then.

We worked through a lot of pain, had many emotional discussions, lived through our pain while trying to keep us together, and ultimately here is what worked for us. (FOR US)

We have a quasi open marriage, with a few rules attached to that. While I play and have sex outside of our marriage, he has chosen to rarely do that...that's his choice.

I'm not tempted to leave him - why would I? I can have my cake and eat it too and so can he. There isn't someone better than him - there is likely someone who would be different, but I'd never give this up for someone else.

An open marriage can be very tough, but when there are differing needs and desires, it can work.

Keep talking, talk lots, cry lots, work it over and then decide.

RaineeDayze said:

I had this exact same situation with my husband before we married. Same problems, only we were a bit older than you then.

We worked through a lot of pain, had many emotional discussions, lived through our pain while trying to keep us together, and ultimately here is what worked for us. (FOR US)

We have a quasi open marriage, with a few rules attached to that. While I play and have sex outside of our marriage, he has chosen to rarely do that...that's his choice.

I'm not tempted to leave him - why would I? I can have my cake and eat it too and so can he. There isn't someone better than him - there is likely someone who would be different, but I'd never give this up for someone else.

An open marriage can be very tough, but when there are differing needs and desires, it can work.

Keep talking, talk lots, cry lots, work it over and then decide.

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That, I guess, is option 4. This means, of course, risking the idea that he won't accept it, which puts OP in the same position as earlier but with less trust. That becomes the price of trying to be open.