BDSM: Questions and Answers

Re: OK, but what about us Nillas?

geo.fraser said:

I have read every page of this thread, and followed up some of the links, I'm claiming at least a superior kind of ignorance here.

Being a Nilla myself, nothing wrong with that, the Constitution guarantees our right, I have occasionally felt concern over the welfare of Nillas married to subs.

The sub gives her soul and her body to her Dom to do with as he pleases; OK, there are negotiations, contracts, limits. What she gives, she withholds from her Nilla husband. While she is becoming everything she can be, he is left with less than half of her. There is no compensation for him.

Is there any reason for the marriage to continue? If hubby is keeping her, but her heart belongs to Daddy, that is an unethical position, IMHO. If there are children of the marriage, what will be done about them? What do the US judges decide in such cases?

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*sighs softly*
okay, i'm fighting an insane headache and am very tired... so i'm sorry if this comes across as bitchy or doesn't make sense.

first of all i don't see that what Trinka said necesarily means she has a Dom/me outside of her marraige. i think it's unfair to jump to that conclusion without asking.

second of all, if a married person seeks a BDSM relationship outside of that marraige, and the other half of the couple knows and concents, it really doesn't matter what anyone thinks about the subject. i don't think it is unethical if all parties have given informed concent.

using the pronouns/orientations you did in your above post (being gender and sexuality inclusive takes too many keystrokes)... i'd like to challange your perception. he has no "right" to her, so him being "left with less than half of her" seems to be an incredibly chauvanistic statement. she is free to explore all of herself, and i assume he would be given that same freedom.

i believe it is possible to love two people at once. i believe she can love her husband dearly and still find a very satisfying BDSM relationship. there are conveniences (my spelling is so terrible... don't hurt me cym ) involved with remaining married, especially if there are children. i don't really understand why a judge would need to get involved in the first place.

to me it all boils down to: as long as everyone knows what's going on, and everyone agrees, there is no problem and it's no one's business but their own.

oh.... one more thing....this is probably the headache talking, so i apologize in advance, but using the term "Daddy" to refer to a dom is inappropriate... imho.

Well, I see I stirred things up a little.

Geo, you raise very valid and painful questions. I struggled with most of them for years in isolation. I actually didn't mention any of my personal choices in my post to Trinka, I only meant to wish her well.
You are absolutely correct, there is nothing wrong with a vanilla relationship; as long as both partners are happy and fulfilled. Honestly, it would have been a far easier choice for me to continue to deny my nature and my needs, but I deserve to be happy. My husband deserves a wife who is content to stay at his side. Should my marriage continue? Truthfully, the answer is no. I am taking steps to set us both free to seek happiness elsewhere. For me, that is the best, most ethical option. Fortunately, there are no children to consider.
BTW, in some cases, the wife actually makes far more money than the husband. I've never been kept, although I'd be willing to give it a try.
Cym, my friend, thank you for articulating the difficult choices you and I have faced. You know all too well how hard it has been for me to do what is necessary.
Most of the time, I lurk on this thread. I appreciate the honest discussions and have learned much about myself after long periods of reflection. Thank you all.

cymbidia said:

khamoshi are you still looking for voices for your book? If so, i'm game. PM me and we can start talking about what you need, if it's in the realm of the private, or simply post your questions here, if it's not.
?

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sorry for not replying earlier, have been out of town for a few days.
Thank you fow your willingness to help me, and if possible i'd like to email you my questions, if that is ok?



khamoshi

Geo's post seems awfully one sided: the 'nilla spouse isn't the only partner who has every reason to expect their needs to be met. If a vanilla man is married to a sub, as in geo's example, I can see that there's likely to be some confusion and uncertainly as to what she gives to her Dom/me that she doesn't share with her husband. However, the husband is also failing the sub, by being unwilling or unable to satisfy her sexual and emotional needs for submission. In that circumstance, he isn't being cheated, they both are. In fact, all three (2 spouses, plus 1) are missing out on a fully satisfying committment.

Now, sometimes we're willing to make those sacrifices: for the kids, because our knowledge of our sexuality is new and still burgeoning, because we've been made to feel bad about voicing our needs, because we love and will miss the spouse, because kinks are often closeted and hard to find if you don't know where to look. There are a million reasons that people stay in less-than-fulfilling relationships, geo. And a million other reasons that people leave them in pursuit of something better.

Just try to keep in mind that relationships work both ways.
We choose to be where we are, whether kinky or 'nilla. And, we choose to change where we are when it no longer works. That process, too, is a two-way street. Nobody's victimizing anyone by wanting to find a fulfilling relationship, by trying to find happiness.


Oh, and cym: You *know* that I expect email about the date, yes? <---Look,gang, I'm channelling Nessus

RisiaSkye said:

Oh, and cym: You *know* that I expect email about the date, yes? <---Look,gang, I'm channelling Nessus

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I will try to stop see?

Merelan speaks up...

I am married. I love him, very much. He is such an important part of me, an integral piece of my heart, soul, life. Whatever you wish to call it. But..
You knew there was going to be a but...
He is mostly "vanilla". When I first met him he was all vanilla, not even any of those yummy flecks of the bean in there. Pure, through and through. After 15 years, and alot of silent hinting, and lately, not so silent hinting from me. He is trying to be a little more forceful. A little more dominant. It is because he loves me. Nope, he isn't comfortable with it, yet. Though he says it holds some appeal. (I think he likes the thought I am not allowed to speak till he tells me.) He knows that I need this. Need to feel that someone else, him, is in control. That I no longer have to make decisions.
I am phrasing this all wrong. In our lives, at work and home. I am the one who has the answers, at work, I am the boss. At home he thinks he is, but in reality, it is me. Honest, that's what I am trying to be here. And in him trying to please me more in the bedroom, and being more forceful there, he has become a stronger person outside too.
The thought of being with another, one who controls and knows my needs, excites me. But then I think about it not being him, and shudder. See? Torn. I know he can never, ever fulfill my deepest needs. So had to decide which I loved more.
And I chose him. In fairness to him and myself. For if I was not happy in our life, he could not be either. it is not fair to either side when one is so unhappy she cries herself to sleep, weeps in the shower, and hides her needs. He has the right to try to help, and I am lucky, he is trying.
Did any of this make any sense?

And before you ask, yes, he knows about sweet Mistress Hecate. Knows I love her, deeply. Knows I admire her beauty, her intelligence and that she guides me on my path.
Why did I write this. Not sure. Guess I felt the need to share.

Merelan, you shared it because it's your truth, because it's applicable to the discussion, and because you felt it might help illuminate the subject.

We all know there are many more people that read our words than ever post here, some of whom are in situations and holding questions just like our own. Any truths we can offer, therefore, might help someone else, someone who might feel uncomfortable asking aloud for the help at this point or might not even know how to phrase the questions and concerns and torments that roll through their soul ceaselessly. Writing out our deep personal truths can also help us to make more sense of them.

To illustrate the volume of readers, i've been keeping track of thread "reads" for the last almost-48 hours. Two days ago, in the morning, the reads were at 27,154. Right now, they're at 27,457. Even if those of us who posted in that time accounted for 1/2, even 3/4, of the reads, that still leaves a lot of people wandering in here to have a look at what we're talking about.

So you go, Merelan. You tell your truths. All the rest of y'all, too. Maybe some of the wrodless ones will join in, drop little nuggets of their wisdom or the ache of their confusions into the mix. More knowledge cannot hurt. It's the lack of knowledge that is the killer for us all.




R? I tried to call you last night. Late. I think, missy, that you have some s'plaining to do about being out past your curfew!

Yep. cymbidia made a very good point. I'm not knowledgeable enough (yet!) to cogently comment upon a lot of what is discussed here, but I come to this thread every day, and carefully read. The very presence of the thread, and the willingness of each of us to discuss those things most important to us, is a boon to many, many more people than is at first apparent.

Thanks to everyone!

Some Clarifications

Spec - I hoped that it was obvious from my quote that the "full version" was meant, neither "playing" nor "mild addiction"

cymbidia - the poor dumb nilla I had in mind was one where his wife came to realisation sometime after the marriage, say 5 years down the road. Not knowing, neither of them could consider this in their prenuptual agreement. No-one should think that I am pointing fingers (how gauche!); I am only pointing to a situation of a person suffering, not knowing why, not conscious of having done anything wrong.

trinka - Although I quoted your post, by no means was I directing my text at you. The intention was to be entirely general.

seXieleXie - your points are taken. I agree that it may be possible to love two people at the same time. A problem arises if one of those loved (e.g. hubby) doesn't fall in with the arrangement. "Getting less than half of her" is not incredibly chauvinistic. It is contained in the marriage vows, which are pretty emphatic about "forsaking all others" and it is supposed to be so for both parties. In literature as well as in real life, spouses are always saying "I belong to you and You belong to me". And they mean it - at the time anyway.

Desdemona - Your situation is close to the situation I imagined. Why is it hard for you? Is it because you know that your husband loves you, and he will be just another Nilla, fallen by the wayside, not knowing the How and Why of his pain. For what it is worth, I have been married twice, 20 years and 27 years still counting. One divorce. I still hate that. I could have loved both of them, but neither could accept that. No D/s involved. I only started to read into that last year.

Risia Skye - My post had nothing to do with demands to be met. There are legitimate expectations, though. I was also talking about full commitment, not play. I dunno about play, myself. A lot of stories, right here on LIT. are based on the culpability of husbands or partners who slope off to strip clubs and spend an hour with a whore. At least there is no heart and soul involved there. It is not relevant to my original post, but I ask you, if husband should tolerate, even encourage his wife's relationship with a Dom, should he as a quid pro quo have her permission to keep a mistress? (sorry not a Domme!). Well, fine then there is some semblance of equity. But a lot of us chaps, believe it or not, are monogamous.

We choose to change - brave words, but in the situation you yourself have described, not everyone involved gets to choose, right?

Sorry this is so long, but there were a lot of comments that deserve replies.

Please, all of you, rest assured that I neither made nor implied any criticism of the life-style. I did not. I sought only to draw attention to the fact that whenever any ONE of a couple embarks on a course of changing the way she, or indeed he, lives their life, there is likely to be a casualty, a person who was not a party to the decision, who nevertheless is fundamentally, usually adversely, affected by it. When the change in life-style is drastic, it is not the other's *fault* if they are unable or unwilling to adapt. I'm talking fundamental relationships here. Kinky "scenes" might be managed, even enjoyed, but innate characteristics and indoctrination would likely be too strong to allow a Nilla hubby to turn himself into a 24/7 Dom.

Re: Some Clarifications

Risia Skye - My post had nothing to do with demands to be met. There are legitimate expectations, though. I was also talking about full commitment, not play. I dunno about play, myself. A lot of stories, right here on LIT. are based on the culpability of husbands or partners who slope off to strip clubs and spend an hour with a whore. At least there is no heart and soul involved there. It is not relevant to my original post, but I ask you, if husband should tolerate, even encourage his wife's relationship with a Dom, should he as a quid pro quo have her permission to keep a mistress? (sorry not a Domme!). Well, fine then there is some semblance of equity. But a lot of us chaps, believe it or not, are monogamous.

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I think you misunderstand my point. I'm not suggesting that it's okay for a sub wife to keep a Dom/me, but that the husband should be monogamous. What I am suggesting is that if a partner in a relationship is unhappy, and finds that their needs aren't being met, it isn't inappropriate for them to seek their happiness. If one partner is unhappy and keeping secrets from the other partner, the relationship is already failing. The sub (sticking to your example) should be honest about their needs. If the spouse can't or won't try to meet them, both parties have to decide what they can change to make the situation work for them. For some people, that might mean divorce. For others, it might mean encouraging the spouse to have a no-intercourse relationship with a Dom/me. But, the bottomline is: there is no single right answer. Taking initiative and personal responsibility is up to each person.

Please, all of you, rest assured that I neither made nor implied any criticism of the life-style. I did not. I sought only to draw attention to the fact that whenever any ONE of a couple embarks on a course of changing the way she, or indeed he, lives their life, there is likely to be a casualty, a person who was not a party to the decision, who nevertheless is fundamentally, usually adversely, affected by it.

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There are two issues here:
1) Infidelity. This is not unique to BDSM, and I don't understand why it deserves special consideration here. Given the kinks of this kind of sexuality, sometimes "other arrangements" are made to meet everyone's needs. Hugh Hefner lives with seven women young enough to be his granddaughter, but it seems to work for all of them. Relationships are only as limited as our imaginations. Those who are committed to monogamous relationships should bear that committment in mind when making their decisions. What's so difficult to understand here?
2) Choice and consent. I think you underestimate the ethical considerations of those who look outside their relationships for their sexual needs. Just like in any other relationship, the feelings and desires of each partner are important. In reality, I don't know a single person who's gone outside their relationship to meet their BDSM sexual/emotional needs without first trying to make it work with their partner. If the partner chooses to have no part in that kind of sexuality, they are making a choice; the choice still runs two ways.

Re: Re: Some Clarifications

RisiaSkye said:

There are two issues here:
1) Infidelity. This is not unique to BDSM, and I don't understand why it deserves special consideration here. Given the kinks of this kind of sexuality, sometimes "other arrangements" are made to meet everyone's needs. Hugh Hefner lives with seven women young enough to be his granddaughter, but it seems to work for all of them. Relationships are only as limited as our imaginations. Those who are committed to monogamous relationships should bear that committment in mind when making their decisions. What's so difficult to understand here?
2) Choice and consent. I think you underestimate the ethical considerations of those who look outside their relationships for their sexual needs. Just like in any other relationship, the feelings and desires of each partner are important. In reality, I don't know a single person who's gone outside their relationship to meet their BDSM sexual/emotional needs without first trying to make it work with their partner. If the partner chooses to have no part in that kind of sexuality, they are making a choice; the choice still runs two ways.

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Oh RisiaSkye, you are so very right about both of these points...

I have read this thread for the last couple of days without replying because at first I was angry with the implications that decisions about BDSM sexuality and lifestlye were taken lightly and without thought to the lives of others that are affected...

I don't know one person in RL or on this board who would choose infidelity over having a loving, honest BDSM relationship with their spouse if that were possible... Sometimes that is just not possible and options have to be explored...

I know of no one in RL who has not ended their non-BDSM relationship because the need to be who they need to be and to have the relationship they need is more powerful than not having it... The duality of having needs versus having those needs met becomes too great and yes in the end there is hurt... but as RS so stated... there was already something so wrong in the relationship that change was inevitable...

But this is not exclusive to BDSM relationships... it happens in the vanilla (god i hate that term) world, too. I know this because it happened to me before I knew what it was that I needed...

It is not more honest to stay in a relationship that is not supportive of you and your needs for fear that someone will be hurt... because in the end someone gets hurt anyway... This kind of dishonesty strips away your soul and eats into the core of who you are... at least that was the way I felt...

I cannot and will not live today with someone who cannot meet my needs the way I need them to be met... To be alone is better than to live a lie...

I am sorry to ramble on like this but I just did not know that until tonight there was still so much pain associated with that decision I made 15 years ago...

Re: Some Clarifications

geo.fraser said:

Desdemona - Your situation is close to the situation I imagined. Why is it hard for you? Is it because you know that your husband loves you, and he will be just another Nilla, fallen by the wayside, not knowing the How and Why of his pain. For what it is worth, I have been married twice, 20 years and 27 years still counting. One divorce. I still hate that. I could have loved both of them, but neither could accept that. No D/s involved. I only started to read into that last year.


Geo, please know that if sexual incompatability was the only problem in my relationship, I would probably not be making the same choices. My marriage, like many others, has failed on multiple levels. The fault lies on both sides. Ultimately, we chose different paths. As others have said, I tried to make it work within the boundaries of our relationship. Believe me, he has no reason to sit around wondering why I'm leaving him. I have been very honest about the issues and have tried repeatedly to make this marriage work.
It is hard, because I have been with this man for many years and there was enough civility and kindness for much of that time to encourage me to try to make it work. I care about him and hate the thought that I would ever cause him pain. I want only good things for him. I can't imagine that it would ever be easy to end a relationship that has lasted for more than 20 years.
Having said all this, the fact remains that I must be true to myself. I have ignored my needs and allowed them to go unmet after being told that I was "perverse". I tried to mold myself into his vision of a good wife. Honestly, I think I deserve more out of life. I want a relationship where I can truly be myself on all levels. That simply was not possible in my marriage.

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An idea of mine

As I read in this thread and ponder the volumes of information found here, I can't help but wonder if it would be possible to turn this into a book or booklet for fellow perverts to use as an information source. I am thinking of the SM ball that is coming up in Houston and wondering what it would take to have something like this ready and on the tables to sell for an inexpensive price next year. Heck, having it cheaply printed and bound after editing would make it even better so that more people could enjoy it's knowledge.

Of course, I could just be rambling........

Great idea Blondgirl - the information from this post is honest and real - not like any fantasy novel (though I love those too!). I think it would be great if someone had the time and energy to go through sort and edit the posts. The booklet created could be sold, like you said, at the S&M ball, fetish clubs or other such events and proceeds go to some charity.

can i be the charity?

Excellent idea, BG.

And i think, considering the amount of time and effort it will take to actually pull this thing together, whomever does that should not only recoup her costs, of course, but make a bit on the profit end, too.

Re: An idea of mine

BlondGirl said:

As I read in this thread and ponder the volumes of information found here, I can't help but wonder if it would be possible to turn this into a book or booklet for fellow perverts to use as an information source. I am thinking of the SM ball that is coming up in Houston and wondering what it would take to have something like this ready and on the tables to sell for an inexpensive price next year. Heck, having it cheaply printed and bound after editing would make it even better so that more people could enjoy it's knowledge.

Of course, I could just be rambling........

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BG... what a great idea... I am game!!!

I am wondering how many pages this would contain if printed out--nothing fancy needed. (And think of what a great ad for Lit this would be too-LOL--if we could get lots of other kinky experienced people in here, oh-baby! What a resource we would have!)

I think the attraction of reading a compilation such as this would be that there is so much of a variety from the newest ones here to the experinced to the seriously creative of both of the prior categories. This is an example of the pansexual and all-inclusive-ness of the SM subculture. Everyone is represented and everyone can find what they relate to

If this did occcur, would this thread need to be closed and a second one created for new responses and such considering that a part 2 could be created in the future?

Or could this be one of the online books that is free for all who wish to access it while also being available for purchasing/sale for the non-computer folks?

Oh the posibilities!!!

Trinka said:

The booklet created could be sold, like you said, at the S&M ball, fetish clubs or other such events and proceeds go to some charity.

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I would think that pricing it for much profit would make it too expensive for the average newbie type--I would suggest no cost over 10$. Printing would have to be ultra cheap and simple. (EXAMPLE: My long time playing friends still cherish their old spiral-bound versions of SM 101. While the new look is flashy and cool and conains more information, the old spiral layout is sooooo handy to lay open during play. Nothing like being tied up and having that laid under your chin opened to a special page for you to read and ponder while waiting for the next activity...)

I do agree that the person who compiles this into a reader-friendly format would be deserving of any profits--BUT--I would also request that some be donated to Lit to fix the damned search function!

I think it would be a great idea as well to get it all compiled into a printed version.

I would also suggest that it would be possible to buy it via the net for us people who doesn't live in the states. Maybe do it so it's possible to download as a pdf file, and then people can print it themself if they feel like it. If done this way, I suggest it should be a reduced price for those who download it.

I have seen websites where you have the option of the free download or you can pay for a printed version. I would think that would be the ideal. (For those who are more interrested in providing information as opposed to those who are only interrested in making a profit.)

This is already here and accessible for reading. Just having it available to those who can't get here would be ideal.

But of course, this is just more rambling.

A question to fellow BDSM'ers

Hey, not to change the subject but...........................

I was wondering about others in the bdsm lifestyle.........How many know your living it?........any friends?........folks from work????

Last week we got into some cool sex talks at work and I explained some of they things skitten and I are into and the way we see things and maybe just maybe educate them so........so they might notice what they are missing.......

Some listened with ears wide open........Am I wrong???????? I mean if your both into something and it is all good clean legal fun, why keep quite about it......Way I see it ,it is nothing to be ashamed about.

Looking for some thought here........

Well, no one knows even that I am interested, much less have engaged in the lifestyle.

I live in a small community which is much like a Peyton Place. To take it a step further, my occupation and professional reputation would be put at risk if anyone identified me as a pervert. lol

So, I come here to share!

Hmmmmmmm well they all know me as a pervert now..............

So thats not a big deal and as a signmaker.......well it is not like I am a school teacher or anything like that.....

I have talked about it a few times with friends, but I don't feel a need to get a vanity tag for my car that says BDSMER or I Spank . There isn't really a great wall between people in the lifestyle and the many long term couples that have experimented in the bdsm toy box not realizing it has a name. I'd be careful though depending on one's situation. If porn site addicts think we are freaks, imagine what perverted ideas those in mainstream America would have.