Breaking News!! Fake Cures Don't Work!!

[Sonny Limatina]

Reiterating what virtually every other properly conducted and controlled peer-reviewed study of alternative medicine has concluded, a new study says its benefits are purely placebo effect.

Duh.


(Link is AP.)

[Midnight_Man]

Ranks right up there with people who think they can cure arthritis by wearing magnets and copper bracelets.

[Songcatcher]

Originally Posted by flat5ive

Reiterating what virtually every other properly conducted and controlled peer-reviewed study of alternative medicine has concluded, a new study says its benefits are purely placebo effect.

Duh.


(Link is AP.)

Billions of dollars funded by whom?

[pointless]

still genius

[Sonny Limatina]

Originally Posted by pointless

still genius

I sense a theme tonight.

[MechaBlade]

Originally Posted by flat5ive

Reiterating what virtually every other properly conducted and controlled peer-reviewed study of alternative medicine has concluded, a new study says its benefits are purely placebo effect.

Duh.


(Link is AP.)

I sure hope wishing wells and voting booths still work.

[Sonny Limatina]

Originally Posted by MechaBlade

I sure hope wishing wells and voting booths still work.

Once you say wishing wells, voting booths is redundant.

[blunt_trauma]

the placebo effect is real though.
so in some ways they do work.

[Peregrinator]

Originally Posted by blunt_trauma

the placebo effect is real though.
so in some ways they do work.

There's that; who cares how they work?

Also, "alternative medicine" is a very broad brush.

[blunt_trauma]

Originally Posted by Peregrinator

There's that; who cares how they work?

Also, "alternative medicine" is a very broad brush.

indeed.
herbal medicine work very well.
which would be why much of our medicines are based on them.

willow bark, foxglove, bread mold and weed spring to mind.

[Sonny Limatina]

Originally Posted by Peregrinator

There's that; who cares how they work?

Also, "alternative medicine" is a very broad brush.

Yes, but it's fairly intuitive which treatments are colored by that brush. About the only one they can't test--because how do you control for it? You can't fake it--is massage. The rest simply never beat control.

[Sonny Limatina]

Originally Posted by blunt_trauma

indeed.
herbal medicine work very well.
which would be why much of our medicines are based on them.

willow bark, foxglove, bread mold and weed spring to mind.

Nope, they don't.

[Peregrinator]

Originally Posted by flat5ive

Yes, but it's fairly intuitive which treatments are colored by that brush. About the only one they can't test--because how do you control for it? You can't fake it--is massage. The rest simply never beat control.

I think acupuncture might also be in that category. There are demonstrable benefits, as far as I know. Then there's "herbalism," which includes so many different compounds that it's a whole galaxy, and many of them are very bioactive. Atmas has done cancer research on several herbal extracts. It's just a huge category is all. That said, I think you're right, and there's some very obvious snake oil out there.

[Peregrinator]

Originally Posted by flat5ive

Nope, they don't.

Willow bark contains salicylates...chewing it is known to be almost as effective as aspirin tablets. That's supported by blood tests for the metabolites. I wish I still had a link to the study.

Coca tea is a remarkably effective drug for altitude illness.

There are a million examples like this.

[blunt_trauma]

Originally Posted by flat5ive

Nope, they don't.

yes, they do.
please educate yourself a little.

the ones i listed, weed excepted, are the basis for several common medicine.
the problem with them is that dose and quality is hard to control.

they discovered aspirin by looking for the active ingredient that made willow bark numb pain http://inventors.about.com/library/i.../blaspirin.htm

they work because they are the same substance, but unrefined.

did you think medicines magically appeared?

[Sonny Limatina]

Originally Posted by Peregrinator

I think acupuncture might also be in that category. There are demonstrable benefits, as far as I know. Then there's "herbalism," which includes so many different compounds that it's a whole galaxy, and many of them are very bioactive. Atmas has done cancer research on several herbal extracts. It's just a huge category is all. That said, I think you're right, and there's some very obvious snake oil out there.

Acupuncture doesn't beat control when the control group includes a believable fake needle and a large sample. Any positive results in the past have long been proven false. (In fact, the opposite is true: some of the "positive" results in the past concluded that acupuncture is so effective, that even when it's applied outside the "meridians" it works. Translation: The "positive" results were equal to placebo.)

[Sonny Limatina]

Originally Posted by Peregrinator

Willow bark contains salicylates...chewing it is known to be almost as effective as aspirin tablets. That's supported by blood tests for the metabolites. I wish I still had a link to the study.

Coca tea is a remarkably effective drug for altitude illness.

There are a million examples like this.

My "nope, they don't" was an overreach, for sure.

But it's a slippery slope.

There is bioactivity. And there is snake oil. Many of the sentences that begin with "herbs" end with "snake oil" of one kind or another.

[Sonny Limatina]

Originally Posted by blunt_trauma

yes, they do.
please educate yourself a little.

the ones i listed, weed excepted, are the basis for several common medicine.
the problem with them is that dose and quality is hard to control.

they discovered aspirin by looking for the active ingredient that made willow bark numb pain http://inventors.about.com/library/i.../blaspirin.htm

they work because they are the same substance, but unrefined.

did you think medicines magically appeared?

I rarely talk about my education. But it's safe to say that part is covered.

[Peregrinator]

Originally Posted by flat5ive

Acupuncture doesn't beat control when the control group includes a believable fake needle and a large sample. Any positive results in the past have long been proven false. (In fact, the opposite is true: some of the "positive" results in the past concluded that acupuncture is so effective, that even when it's applied outside the "meridians" it works. Translation: The "positive" results were equal to placebo.)

I'm either out of date or we're reading different studies. I don't mean to defend alternative medicine per se. I just think it's such a huge category that it's a little tough to generalize.

Also, sort of in the larger, abstract view, as I posted above, does it matter if it's "placebo effect?" If you give me a pill and my conditions improve, I'm not especially worried about the biochemistry of it.

[Peregrinator]

Originally Posted by flat5ive

My "nope, they don't" was an overreach, for sure.

But it's a slippery slope.

There is bioactivity. And there is snake oil. Many of the sentences that begin with "herbs" end with "snake oil" of one kind or another.

Sure, I completely agree. I've lately been reading a lot of xenobotany, specifically Wade Davis and Mark Plotkin with a little Schultes thrown in. It reminded me of the source of a lot of our medicines.

[Sonny Limatina]

Originally Posted by Peregrinator

I'm either out of date or we're reading different studies. I don't mean to defend alternative medicine per se. I just think it's such a huge category that it's a little tough to generalize.

Also, sort of in the larger, abstract view, as I posted above, does it matter if it's "placebo effect?" If you give me a pill and my conditions improve, I'm not especially worried about the biochemistry of it.

I completely agree--placebo is not inherently a derogatory term. The fake pills work, and that's half the battle. There's also the natural history of a disease or pain. By the time you're medicating, or trying a second or third medication, most pains are on the way out, most colds are on the mend. So placebo or not, you're feeling better.

The AP article mentions a European study on acupuncture. It might be worth a look, if you can find the original study.

[Peregrinator]

Originally Posted by blunt_trauma

yes, they do.
please educate yourself a little.

the ones i listed, weed excepted, are the basis for several common medicine.
the problem with them is that dose and quality is hard to control.

they discovered aspirin by looking for the active ingredient that made willow bark numb pain http://inventors.about.com/library/i.../blaspirin.htm

they work because they are the same substance, but unrefined.

did you think medicines magically appeared?

Weed, too. There are a lot of oncologists who swear by it, and of those who don't, many prescribe dronabinol.

[blunt_trauma]

Originally Posted by flat5ive

I rarely talk about my education. But it's safe to say that part is covered.

then i'm perplexed by your ignorant, unqualified blanket statement.

that there are gullible fools and manipulative quacks does not make an entire field worthless. drug companies are still investing in testing plants to see if they have active ingredients we can use. and in poor parts of the world where there is no access to medicine, plants still save lives.

shit, eastern civilisation relied on tea!
{the west relied on beer. nuff said}

[Peregrinator]

Originally Posted by flat5ive

I completely agree--placebo is not inherently a derogatory term. The fake pills work, and that's half the battle. There's also the natural history of a disease or pain. By the time you're medicating, or trying a second or third medication, most pains are on the way out, most colds are on the mend. So placebo or not, you're feeling better.

The AP article mentions a European study on acupuncture. It might be worth a look, if you can find the original study.

"Tincture of time." The doc I work for uses that phrase a lot. I asked him once what he thought of people who could see "auras" and use them to help with diagnoses. I thought his answer was instructive: "I wish I could see them."

I'll see if I can dig it up.

[Sonny Limatina]

Originally Posted by blunt_trauma

then i'm perplexed by your ignorant, unqualified blanket statement.

that there are gullible fools and manipulative quacks does not make an entire field worthless. drug companies are still investing in testing plants to see if they have active ingredients we can use. and in poor parts of the world where there is no access to medicine, plants still save lives.

shit, eastern civilisation relied on tea!
{the west relied on beer. nuff said}

Covered above, your ever-charming Dolfness. Scroll or roll.