Green Mamba Venom tested as drug for heart failure.

[Peregrinator]

Now researchers think that desperately ill heart failure patients may find relief with the help of the eastern green mamba snake.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...502440780.html

[TurdFergeson]

Originally Posted by Peregrinator

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...502440780.html

Interesting...

That and some good old digitalis should d the trick.

[Peregrinator]

Originally Posted by TurdFergeson

Interesting...

That and some good old digitalis should d the trick.

Looks promising. I note that the Mayo Clinic did the research, and not one of those poor pharmaceutical companies that claim they spend billions on research...

[TurdFergeson]

Originally Posted by Peregrinator

Looks promising. I note that the Mayo Clinic did the research, and not one of those poor pharmaceutical companies that claim they spend billions on research...

Course not. This could seriously cut in to their market share.

:P

[Peregrinator]

Originally Posted by TurdFergeson

Course not. This could seriously cut in to their market share.

:P

Yup. One of them will buy the patent and then trumpet it to the world as a great success of theirs.

[bronzeage]

Originally Posted by Peregrinator

Yup. One of them will buy the patent and then trumpet it to the world as a great success of theirs.

You do know what one has to do to collect green mamba venom, don't you.

Collecting it can cause heart failure.

[Peregrinator]

Originally Posted by bronzeage

You do know what one has to do to collect green mamba venom, don't you.

Collecting it can cause heart failure.

Then you just let the snake bite you.

[bronzeage]

Doesn't that look like fun.

Originally Posted by Peregrinator

Then you just let the snake bite you.

[Peregrinator]

Originally Posted by bronzeage

Doesn't that look like fun.

I like snakes. In an alternate universe I think I'm a herpetologist.

[bronzeage]

Originally Posted by Peregrinator

I like snakes. In an alternate universe I think I'm a herpetologist.

Down this far south, snakes are active almost all year round. Identifying and catching snakes when I was a boy was as common as riding a bike. I once caught a King snake that was longer than I was tall.

The venomous snakes are really quite rare compared to the rest of the population. A lot of the non-venomous snakes have protective coloration that mimics their deadly cousins. I have seen a lot of harmless mouse hunters killed for looking like a cotton mouth moccasin.

[Peregrinator]

Originally Posted by bronzeage

Down this far south, snakes are active almost all year round. Identifying and catching snakes when I was a boy was as common as riding a bike. I once caught a King snake that was longer than I was tall.

The venomous snakes are really quite rare compared to the rest of the population. A lot of the non-venomous snakes have protective coloration that mimics their deadly cousins. I have seen a lot of harmless mouse hunters killed for looking like a cotton mouth moccasin.

Yeah, the Eastern Water Snake, iirc. First pit viper I ever encountered in the wild was a moc. I teased it with a two by four and got it striking and hissing...I was a dumb kid, and that was one pissed off snake.

In my time in the south that was my favorite thing. Well, after the pulled pork sandwiches.

[trysail]

Originally Posted by Peregrinator

Looks promising. I note that the Mayo Clinic did the research, and not one of those poor pharmaceutical companies that claim they spend billions on research...

WTF? You really ought to look at the financial statements of J&J or Pfizer or Merck or Lilly or Bristol-Myers Squibb or Genentech or Amgen or AstraZeneca or Novartis or GlaxoSmithKline or Sanofi-Aventis sometime.

There you will see that the income statements of every one of those companies show the expenditure of multiple tens of billions of dollars ( as a rough rule of thumb, 15+% of sales and, in some cases, as much as 20% of sales ). The American companies, in particular, tend to be the heaviest spenders on research ( as a percent of sales). Accounting rules require that current research expenditures be charged as an expense in the year they are incurred.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharmac...rms_of_revenue

If these companies were managed for the short run and wanted to "explode" profits in any one year, all they'd have to do would be to cease spending on research.

The research effort is an extremely high risk proposition. It has been estimated that only one ( 1 ) of six hundred ( 600 ) novel compounds move on to clinical testing and that of those that do make it to clinical tests only one ( 1 ) in five ( 5 ) prove safe and effective.

It has also been estimated that the cost of shepherding a compound all the way through FDA approval is on the order of one billion dollars ($1,000,000,000 ). FDA approval does not, of course, provide any assurance that a novel drug will subsequently recoup the amounts expended on its development, research and testing.

In the past decade, the industry has suffered abysmal results from all their research spending.

[Peregrinator]

Originally Posted by trysail

WTF? You really ought to look at the financial statements of J&J or Pfizer or Merck or Lilly or Bristol-Myers Squibb or Genentech or Amgen or AstraZeneca or Novartis or GlaxoSmithKline or Sanofi-Aventis sometime.

There you will see that the income statements of every one of those companies show the expenditure of multiple tens of billions of dollars ( as a rough rule of thumb, 15+% of sales and, in some cases, as much as 20% of sales ). The American companies, in particular, tend to be the heaviest spenders on research ( as a percent of sales). Accounting rules require that current research expenditures be charged as an expense in the year they are incurred.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pharmac...rms_of_revenue

If these companies were managed for the short run and wanted to "explode" profits in any one year, all they'd have to do would be to cease spending on research.

The research effort is an extremely high risk proposition. It has been estimated that only one ( 1 ) of six hundred ( 600 ) novel compounds move on to clinical testing and that of those that do make it to clinical tests only one ( 1 ) in five ( 5 ) prove safe and effective.

It has also been estimated that the cost of shepherding a compound all the way through FDA approval is on the order of one billion dollars ($1,000,000,000 ). FDA approval does not, of course, provide any assurance that a novel drug will subsequently recoup the amounts expended on its development, research and testing.

In the past decade, the industry has suffered abysmal results from all their research spending.

I have, in fact. They hide their real research expenditures in a category called "research and education" or something like that.

You should read Marcia Angell's excellent book. It's thoroughly researched and documented.

Here's an article based on it:

http://www.psc-cuny.org/drugprices.htm

To date, no one has ever managed to refute her with any credibility.

[Kybele]

Originally Posted by Peregrinator

I have, in fact. They hide their real research expenditures in a category called "research and education" or something like that.

You should read Marcia Angell's excellent book. It's thoroughly researched and documented.

Here's an article based on it:

http://www.psc-cuny.org/drugprices.htm

To date, no one has ever managed to refute her with any credibility.

fuck, that's outrageous! and seriously, no one has refuted the figures?

[trysail]

Originally Posted by Peregrinator

I have, in fact. They hide their real research expenditures in a category called "research and education" or something like that...

You can't "hide" expenditures. Independent auditing firms are paid to ferret that stuff out and believe me, auditors have every incentive to do precisely that. That kind of behavior in a fishbowl industry like this one will eventually get you some serious hard time ( see Skilling, Jeff ).

[Peregrinator]

Originally Posted by Kybele

fuck, that's outrageous! and seriously, no one has refuted the figures?

Nope.

Originally Posted by trysail

You can't "hide" expenditures. Independent auditing firms are paid to ferret that stuff out and believe me, auditors have every incentive to do precisely that. That kind of behavior in a fishbowl industry like this one will eventually get you some serious hard time ( see Skilling, Jeff ).

You can if you have the largest lobby in Washington. Read the book; I was seriously skeptical myself at first. But it's so compelling and so assiduously documented that it''s nearly impossible to disbelieve.

[trysail]

Originally Posted by Kybele

fuck, that's outrageous! and seriously, no one has refuted the figures?

Of course they have. How difficult do you think it is to lacerate the prejudiced assertions of a book-selling M.D. from the City University of New York— one, mind you, with no experience or knowledge of financial statement analysis?

If even a small percentage of her conclusions were remotely accurate, one would logically expect the shares of these companies to have soared in the past decade. Instead, we see this:
http://www.google.com/finance?chdnp=...YSE:MRK&ntsp=0

When the U.S. Congress permitted the manufacture and sale of generic medicines, reduced the period of patent exclusivity and encouraged direct-to-consumer marketing, the die was cast.

[Peregrinator]

Originally Posted by trysail

Of course they have. How difficult do you think it is to lacerate the prejudiced assertions of a book-selling M.D. from the City University of New York— one, mind you, with no experience or knowledge of financial statement analysis?

If even a small percentage of her conclusions were remotely accurate, one would logically expect the shares of these companies to have soared in the past decade. Instead, we see this:
http://www.google.com/finance?chdnp=...YSE:MRK&ntsp=0

When the U.S. Congress permitted the manufacture and sale of generic medicines, reduced the period of patent exclusivity and encouraged direct-to-consumer marketing, the die was cast.

The book is chock full of facts. Read it, check her sources, then comment. Until then, you're speaking from ignorance.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcia_Angell

[bronzeage]

Originally Posted by Peregrinator

Yeah, the Eastern Water Snake, iirc. First pit viper I ever encountered in the wild was a moc. I teased it with a two by four and got it striking and hissing...I was a dumb kid, and that was one pissed off snake.

In my time in the south that was my favorite thing. Well, after the pulled pork sandwiches.

Moccasins are one of the few aggressive snakes. While most snakes will crawl away if they have a safe way to escape, this snakes likes to coil and threaten something bigger than it.

Conversation with a friend from Minnesota:

How can I identify a cottonmouth moccasin?

The inside of the mouth is white.

What if his mouth is not open?

It will be.

[Peregrinator]

Originally Posted by bronzeage

Moccasins are one of the few aggressive snakes. While most snakes will crawl away if they have a safe way to escape, this snakes likes to coil and threaten something bigger than it.

Conversation with a friend from Minnesota:

How can I identify a cottonmouth moccasin?

The inside of the mouth is white.

What if his mouth is not open?

It will be.

Hah! Yeah...they really are aggressive. I have a friend who's been chased by them a few times. Once one chased two of her colleagues into the back of a pickup truck.

[bronzeage]

Originally Posted by Peregrinator

Hah! Yeah...they really are aggressive. I have a friend who's been chased by them a few times. Once one chased two of her colleagues into the back of a pickup truck.

I took woman on a fishing date one time. We were drifting in a bayou when a moccasin was swimming by. He raised his head high to get a good look at us. My date screams and runs to the front of the boat, where I am sitting.

"Can he get in the boat?" she squealed

No, I said, "but if you try hard enough, you can get in the water with him."

[coastal-boy]

I used to think moccasins were agressive until I ran into the green mojave rattlers (they would crawl under the steel girders at night because they retained the heat). Those little fucks think they own the world and aren't afraid to let anyone know it.

[Slowlane]

Originally Posted by Peregrinator

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000...502440780.html

Well, Mr. Smith, you have a serious heart problem. Here, play with this venomous snake until it bites you.



Mr. Smith?


Mr, Smith?



Nurse, did a man just come by here running and screaming?

[Peregrinator]

Originally Posted by bronzeage

I took woman on a fishing date one time. We were drifting in a bayou when a moccasin was swimming by. He raised his head high to get a good look at us. My date screams and runs to the front of the boat, where I am sitting.

"Can he get in the boat?" she squealed

No, I said, "but if you try hard enough, you can get in the water with him."

Bwahaha! That sounds like one of those tales you hear about old New Englanders.

Originally Posted by coastal-boy

I used to think moccasins were agressive until I ran into the green mojave rattlers (they would crawl under the steel girders at night because they retained the heat). Those little fucks think they own the world and aren't afraid to let anyone know it.

I've not spent much time in their territory. I have heard they're aggressive...and their venom is pretty different from the usual pit viper blend...more neurotoxic.

Originally Posted by Slowlane

Well, Mr. Smith, you have a serious heart problem. Here, play with this venomous snake until it bites you.



Mr. Smith?


Mr, Smith?



Nurse, did a man just come by here running and screaming?

Sure to cause a heart attack...

[Slowlane]

According to recent research (by somebody, I would need to look it up again) drug company's margin is 2 to 4 percent. Pretty low, hardly anybody else makes less than ten.