Minimum Wage Hike Costs Teens 335,000 Jobs…

[amicus]

Entry level jobs, ‘flippin burgers’, OJT, on the job training, for teenagers getting their first jobs, are becoming a thing of the past as new Federally Mandated Minimum Wages laws go into effect.

Teen unemployment is over 25%, black teens at over 50%.

This is always a liberal, left wing pushed theory, that raising wages artificially, benefits society in general; it doesn’t. It costs jobs at the lowest level and small business doesn’t pay, they are forced to lay off people, not hire any new employees and raise the cost of their product or service.

Equally as destructive, as Speaker of the House Pelosi let slip today, is the European variety of taxing low and middle class citizens with a ‘VAT’ or value added tax. That means everything you purchase from peanuts to Porsche’s will have a five percent, ‘sales tax’ added, so that Californian’s, now burdened with a 10% Sales Tax already, will be paying 15% more for every thing purchased.

And no, the VAT will not ‘replace’ the income tax, it is added to the total tax burden.

European Social Welfare States have long taxed their citizens into near poverty and the left wing is hell bent to copy the Euro’s.

While the monster issues, socialized medicine and 'Crap & Tax' are occupying center stage, off to the left the wheels are turning to enslave a nation.

Such a deal.

Amicus

[TE999]

The advocates of continuously raising the minimum wage (which makes zero economic sense) say they're trying to give everyone a 'living wage'. How the hell many people subsist on minimum wage jobs anyway? It's primarily teenagers who work for the minimum wage and now the Congress has forced 335,000 of them out of the job market because employers won't pay their help those increased wages for minimum skill work.

I'm sure some adults begin a job being paid the minimum wage, but if they're good at what they're doing, they'll get a raise, and another raise, and a promotion...you're being rewarded for your efforts.

Some clever soul is going to make machinery to automatically cook, prepare and serve hamburgers, et al, thus eliminating those jobs. Have you noticed the self checkout stands in grocery stores and home improvement stores? Less cashiers making the minimum wage there.

This is a classic example of 'feel good' legislation that does more harm than good. Hell, let's raise the minimum wage to $20.00 an hour and everybody in Congress can feel good as they watch the unemployment rates climb.

[amicus]

It is a sad state of affairs, TE999, for years and years I have been correlating the well being of the market place with the amount of freedom permitted those who produce the goods and services we all use.

Not once, in all those years, will anyone of the left provide a rational justification of attempting the manipulate free enterprise and every time they try something, people suffer and the standard of living becomes more difficult to maintain.

The only 'silver lining', so to speak, is the necessity of entrepreneurs to do just what you mentioned, mechanize everything possible and eliminate as much human labor as possible.

I suggest that also holds true for the disaster that is happening in Washington, D.C., people are becoming aware of the real intentions of the social welfare agenda of the left and are providing at least verbal resistance to the downward spiral.

We shall see. Keep up the good fight....and be well...

Amicus

[slyc_willie]

I'm with ya. There's no business I know of in SA that pays anyone minimum wage. I'm sure they're there, somewhere, but they are in the extreme minority. Must places around here start at $8 an hour, 75 cents more than the new minimum wage. Hell, at my restaurant, nobody's making less than $10 an hour, except the wait staff. But the $2.13 they get is enough to pay the taxes on their sales. Most still average between $12 and 15$ per hour in tips. I typically make around $18 an hour when I'm on the floor.

Federal minimum wage is useless legislation. Even a mom and pop place is going to give their employees a competitive rate; if they don't, they'll lose employees. And if they can't afford to match what other employers are paying out, then they aren't making enough money to stay afloat anyway.

The only response to the raise in minimum wage I've heard from my cooks and stewards has been negative; the hourly rate has gone up a buck and a half since most of them started, but their wages haven't been bumped up because they were already above the minimum. Raising the minimum wage, IMO, implied an increase of all hourly wages, and when it didn't come, employees were left feeling a little bitter. Granted, that wasn't the government's doing, but they did create the situation.

[amicus]

Thank you for the empirical data, Slyc, it confirms the sometimes dry and dusty economic theories that bored me to death in college.

It probably goes without saying that I have a passion for the way things work, be it Evolution, physical and psychological, or deep space Astronomy and Planetary science. I am fascinated by so many aspects of life that I would need at least a hundred lifetimes to even begin to satisfy my curiousities...

By the way...have you heard any blip of info on the series we were watching?

ami

[slyc_willie]

Originally Posted by amicus

By the way...have you heard any blip of info on the series we were watching?

ami

Sadly, not much. The Colony may have been a popular show for some while it was on, but now that the experiment is over, there's been hardly a peep about it. Discovery may decide to do another one, but if they do, I foresee ratings falling. Nobody wants a rehash of Survivor -- which the Colony was not, but that's how several people I know compared it, and I'm tempted to believe they aren't alone -- even though there is a wealth of viable scenarios for future experiments.

I would love to see interviews with both Mike and Joey, the obvious leaders of the group, and hear their stories about what they thought throughout the whole thing. But I'm afraid they've already faded into obscurity.

[kiltsr4guys]

Used to be kids did the work....with the job market in the tank, now out of work adults are snapping up the burger flipping duties to make ends meet.....or is it meat. Flipping burgers beats selling pencils on the corner.

[amicus]

kiltsr4guys

Point well made and valid.

As the news item continued, it spoke of the reduced buying power of those entry level teens that has affected the various business's that serves them.

welcome to the fray..

Amicus

[Liar]

Question: how common is sales tax in the US, and what kind of rates are we talking about? You mentioned 10% in California. Is that on all products and services?

We don't have sales tax, only VAT. So I gues it might even out, depending on the rates.

If there's talk about introducing VAT on top of sales tax, that's just ridiculous. Not for the tax burden per se, although that's also of interrest of course. But for the buerocracy. Why have two parallell consumption based taxation systems? Stick to one or the other (or preferrably none, but eh).

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

LIAR

In the US we're perched atop a mountain of unfunded mandates and entitlements. The funds for these programs are depleted and tax revenues are insufficient to maintain the status quo. So politicians are between the devil and the deep blue sea; they either increase taxes or end the benefits. Either choice creates big problems.

[Liar]

I know. But if a tax hike is the way chosen.... then why not increase sales tax instead of adding another one? Same bottom line, less paper pushing.

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Not all sales are equal.

The elites will buy whatever they buy, and everyone else buys what they must. So the government collects more from VAT than sales tax.

[Liar]

Not getting it.

Sales tax is a percentage added to all the the things you buy. You pay more, the goverment takes the extra $$$.

Same thing with VAT.

Just looking for an explanation what the difference is. Why is a 10% VAT mo money than a 10% sales tax?

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

LIAR

Bucuz the peons are reducing their spending and the elites arent. A sales tax on nuthin is nuthin. Plus there's more value added to a Cadillac than a bag of beans.

[Liar]

You are either not understanding or deliberately not answering the question.

A VAT on nuthin is nuthin too.

What is the difference between the two?

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Originally Posted by Liar

You are either not understanding or deliberately not answering the question.

A VAT on nuthin is nuthin too.

What is the difference between the two?

I understand perfectly. What you dont get is the income disparity between haves & have-nots. If the haves control all the money they spend most of the money. The haves generally avoid sales taxes claiming their cars and jets and vacations as business expenses. You cant do that with VAT.

[Selena_Kitt]

Originally Posted by amicus

Entry level jobs, ‘flippin burgers’, OJT, on the job training, for teenagers getting their first jobs, are becoming a thing of the past as new Federally Mandated Minimum Wages laws go into effect.

Good. Maybe they'll focus more on education. :P

I never thought flipping burgers for some megacorp was a good idea for any teen.

[Jenny_Jackson]

Originally Posted by Liar

I know. But if a tax hike is the way chosen.... then why not increase sales tax instead of adding another one? Same bottom line, less paper pushing.

YESSSSSSSSSSSSS! Increase the sales tax. Oregon doesn't have one

But that won't solve the problem. Sales tax belongs to the States, Counties and Local City Goverments. The Entitlements come from the Federal Goverment. You would have the Feds taxing the States, Counties and Cities now to get their share fo the revenues? Can you say Civil War II?

[elfin_odalisque]

Working a lot with European companies, I think I understand value added tax better than Pelosi or Greenspan. I certainly know it’s hated by business.

VAT is really just a sales tax on the end-consumer but made incredibly expensive and bureaucratic to administer – what would you expect of a tax invented by the French. It is not a progressive tax as all consumers pay the same, irrespective of their income.

First, Pelosi talks rubbish - VAT is not used in Europe to cover health and pension costs. All EU companies must pay high payroll taxes to specifically cover health, welfare and (where provided by the state) pension funding. In France and Germany this adds over 30% to payroll costs. BMW and Mercedes would love to escape this cost and also the US import levy for their cars.

The line that tax is paid at each step of the chain is complete nonsense. Companies and suppliers do not pay VAT; it is down to the ordinary Joe in the street.

Try this;

I, company A, import iron ore to the US and sell it to company B, adding 5% VAT to the bill. I have to act as unpaid tax office, keep stringent records and hand over the VAT I’ve collected to the Federal authorities.

Company B smelts the ore and makes steel billets which it sells on to company C at a higher price (value added). B now has to do the tax admin – accounting to the authorities for the VAT it has received but deducting all the VAT it paid to A.

C manufactures screws and invoices customer D who uses the screws in flat pack furniture which it sell to retailer D who sells to the final consumer.

On each transaction VAT must be accounted for – but only the final consumer pays the price.

I could go on for ages about the stupidity of the system, try this for an appetite whetting of the byzantine unreality;

http://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/taxation/vat/how_vat_works/rates/index_en.htm;

Just a taste of the problems – a company makes plastic bottles, some of which it sells to drug companies who are exempt from VAT (sales tax). Does it charge or not charge VAT on the transaction? Can the drug company claim the VAT back? What’s the point? Except creating admin cost.

Also, how small do you go? Does the street vendor selling ice-cream have to run a sophisticated VAT input-output bookkeeping system, available for federal audit for a few hundred dollars of turnover?

If they set the tax at 5%, against the costs it will create for business and authorities alike, it will be a loss-maker – except for the new tax employees.

[lance gt]

So I take it the rich aren't satisfied with making all the money, they're pissed at having to pay more for slave labour too. The poor schmuck who gets a job paying minimum wages, isn't looking to get rich, he/she just wants the ends to meet a little better. With the cost of health-care coming up, the Gov't has decided to make sure they can get it. The capitalists are screaming at how much they're going to have to fork out, but want every incentive they can get their hands on to off-set it. Wages will always go up according to the GND and teens and migrant workers are just pawns playing in a ruthless game controlled by the capitalist owners of business. The last thing they want to see is their employees having a bit of fun in their lives. the small businesses won't be affected that much by the increase and their costs will only be off-set again by another incentive the Gov't will give them.

[elfin_odalisque]

Originally Posted by lance gt

So I take it the rich aren't satisfied with making all the money, they're pissed at having to pay more for slave labour too. The poor schmuck who gets a job paying minimum wages, isn't looking to get rich, he/she just wants the ends to meet a little better. With the cost of health-care coming up, the Gov't has decided to make sure they can get it. The capitalists are screaming at how much they're going to have to fork out, but want every incentive they can get their hands on to off-set it. Wages will always go up according to the GND and teens and migrant workers are just pawns playing in a ruthless game controlled by the capitalist owners of business. The last thing they want to see is their employees having a bit of fun in their lives. the small businesses won't be affected that much by the increase and their costs will only be off-set again by another incentive the Gov't will give them.

You miss the point entirely, as Ami highlighted.

The Democratic proposal on value added tax would make the lower paid pay a disproportionally higher price to reduce the health insurance payments both of feather-bedded corporations and their well-paid employees.
Is that fair?

[lance gt]

Originally Posted by elfin_odalisque

You miss the point entirely, as Ami highlighted.

The Democratic proposal on value added tax would make the lower paid pay a disproportionally higher price to reduce the health insurance payments both of feather-bedded corporations and their well-paid employees.
Is that fair?

That would be unfair. It's nice to see the Gov't doing so much to help their citizens have the chance to pursue their happiness, like the rich. I guess their happiness is being lucky enough to have a roof over their heads and not starve to death. at least they'll get the health-care they need when they're dying of malnutrition.

[Weird Harold]

Originally Posted by Liar

What is the difference between the two?

In the context of US taxation, the difference is that there is no national sales tax, so the 'VAT' is just a buzzword for a national sales tax which is an unpopular and unsupportable terminology -- 'VAT' keeps the pols from actually having to say 'tax' most of the time.

Here in Clark County, Nevada, sales tax is five percent for the state, two percent for the county, and half a percent inside Las Vegas city limits. (IIRC) A federal VAT would be an additonal five percent on those comodities subject to sales tax. Food and other "necessities" aren't subject to sales tax.

I believe California has the highest sales tax in the nation, but it is state and local taxes only with nothing going to the Federal government.

[Liar]

Originally Posted by JAMESBJOHNSON

I understand perfectly. What you dont get is the income disparity between haves & have-nots. If the haves control all the money they spend most of the money. The haves generally avoid sales taxes claiming their cars and jets and vacations as business expenses. You cant do that with VAT.

Ah. That explains what yiou were getting at.

Howeva... I run a business, and I get to deduct VAT for business purchases. My new TV magically became a business purchase. I'm crooked like that.

[amicus]

For lance gt and other who hate the rich: Why?

I mean if you lived in a real class system, an aristocracy, a Monarchy, a dictatorship where wealth is awarded to the 'blue bloods' and other toadies to the powers that be, then I could understand the dogmatic 'class warfare' defined by Marx & Lenin.

But what is it you hate about the Bill Gates of the world who started in their garages with no inherited wealth, nothing but the head on their shoulders?

And the jerk that runs Apple Computers as a Volvo niche for the socialists?

This is a serious question, not that it will be treated that way, but just why do you hate people who have excelled in their profession/avocation and are rewarded with wealth?\

Do you also hate the Beatles or any rock group cum millionaires? Do you hate sports stars with multi million dollar incomes? Movie stars?

Why do you hate the rich?

Amicus