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Bad_Doggie said:
This is the thing I find truly shocking; that the majority of UK citizens don’t understand how British democracy works or, at least, is supposed to work!

The UK is governed by a Parliamentary democracy and NOT a direct populous democracy. In short Parliament is sovereign and not “the people.” So, there is no disruption of the democratic process, the referendum is advisory and NOT binding.

That said, politicians ought to feel obliged to implement the result anyway. The problem comes when they are now trying to carry out a policy that they feel is not in the national interest.

Woof!
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So a 2nd vote or a people’s vote is “ not binding “. If they dont follow up on the biggest vote in the history of modern Britain then the public will have no faith or trust . So now they have delayed the vote in the house and not arranged a date to take it . What a shambles it is now, our politicians should be ashamed of themselves in letting the public down.
 
Hosebloke said:
So a 2nd vote or a people’s vote is “ not binding “. If they dont follow up on the biggest vote in the history of modern Britain then the public will have no faith or trust . So now they have delayed the vote in the house and not arranged a date to take it . What a shambles it is now, our politicians should be ashamed of themselves in letting the public down.
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Nope or a third or a fourth, according to centuries of precedent it’s Parliament that is sovereign; that’s what makes this laughable; they’re arguing for British democracy without even fucking knowing what it is!

Perhaps they won’t or at least a section of the UK populous won’t (who voted for Brexit), but then nothing is ever set in stone; if you were going to take that attitude it could be argued that the 2016 vote is the second referendum attempting to overturn the 1975 vote so why should we trust or faith in our democracy?

You should note, I don’t want a 2nd referendum.

Yes, it’s a shambles alright; letting them down or saving them from their selves, it’s hard to tell!

Woof!
 
Earthly1 said:
Its an abuse of democracy.
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How? Democracy is government by the people. The more they vote the stronger the democracy.

If you are talking about parliamentary democracy, any referendum is an abuse of that.

We had a referendum in 1975 which went very strongly the other way. The leave campaign wanted another referendum and only want to stop because they got the result they wanted. Nigel Farage said as much when he thought his side had lost.

"If the result is less than sixty/forty, then I would say we have unfinished business" Nigel Farage June 23rd 2016
 
RubenR said:
Apparently it's totally acceptable to delay votes when the outcome is unfavorable? Some things are more flexible than others.
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General consensus is that the delay is a time-wasting exercise similar in a way to filibustering. If Mrs May can delay the vote long enough she can present it as "My deal or No deal" because there isn't time to negotiate any further. The hope is that those frightened of a "No Deal" will capitulate and support her. The government always sets the timetable in Parliament.
 
they want a new vote done because they have brought in lots of north African and middle eastern "refugees" in sufficient numbers that they might reverse it.

Hey the European Union did what Hitler, Goering, Himler, and the SS could not do.

The EU actually is THE FOURTH RIECH.

When GERMANY cost the lives of 40 millions during its take over of Europe in the 1930-1945, who the fuck decided that the entire continent of Europe, the United Kingdom should be put under the military control of Germany.

Seriously, its putting a convicted child molester in charge of monitoring the bathrooms at your local elementary school.
 
A Tory hasn't been beaten that badly since Jacob Rees-Mogg last visited his Soho nanny...and that was this morning.
 
I do not understand British politics. I do not understand how the confidence vote process works, or how your government organizes beyond the rudimentary.

If May loses a confidence vote, does that mean that there will be new elections?

If so, would that result in a likely extension of the time by which to leave, or make it likely that there would be a new referendum on the question?
 
richmondman said:
I do not understand British politics. I do not understand how the confidence vote process works, or how your government organizes beyond the rudimentary.

If May loses a confidence vote, does that mean that there will be new elections?

If so, would that result in a likely extension of the time by which to leave, or make it likely that there would be a new referendum on the question?
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If she loses the confidence vote, there would be another one within two weeks. If she loses that too - there would have to be a general election.

She is unlikely to lose a confidence vote because no one wants a general election.

Whether she wins or loses a confidence vote, there is no agreement among members of parliament on what happens next about Brexit. No alternative including a new referendum, an extension or a hard Brexit is likely to get as many votes as the failed deal.

We're in deep political shit!
 
oggbashan said:
She is unlikely to lose a confidence vote because no one wants a general election.
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What you mean is that no one in her own party wants a general election. The opposition is very keen on a general election because the polls say they would win. However, she is guaranteed the support of the DUP so the government will survive.

Considering we were told this would be the easiest deal in history and that they need us more than we need them, our politicians do seem to have made a right pig's breakfast of the whole thing.
 
DeYaKen said:
What you mean is that no one in her own party wants a general election. The opposition is very keen on a general election because the polls say they would win. However, she is guaranteed the support of the DUP so the government will survive.

Considering we were told this would be the easiest deal in history and that they need us more than we need them, our politicians do seem to have made a right pig's breakfast of the whole thing.
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'The polls say they would win'?

That is very uncertain with Jeremy Corbyn as Labour's leader and Labour's confused stance on Brexit. Many Labour supporters voted to leave the EU and won't forgive the Labour Parliamentary party for their bullshit stance 'A Labour government would negotiate a better deal with the EU' - which effectively means no Brexit at all as far as can be deduced from their confused statements. The last Labour manifesto promised to accept the referendum decision. Their actions in parliament suggest that they don't and won't implement Brexit.
 
RubenR said:
No deal!

What's next? A no-deal brexit, or brexit-exit?
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Parliament is in a shambles. They probably won't vote for no deal, are likely vote for an extension which requires all 27 EU countries to agree it - but what would an extension do except prolong the agony?

There is no majority in Parliament for any of these options at all:

No deal
Norway style - EU wouldn't support
Extension - EU agreement necessary but unless some change in UK position would be useless
Cancel Brexit
Another referendum
A General Election
A softer Brexit (Labour's idea) - EU wouldn't support.
 
oggbashan said:
Parliament is in a shambles. They probably won't vote for no deal, are likely vote for an extension which requires all 27 EU countries to agree it - but what would an extension do except prolong the agony?

There is no majority in Parliament for any of these options at all:

No deal
Norway style - EU wouldn't support
Extension - EU agreement necessary but unless some change in UK position would be useless
Cancel Brexit
Another referendum
A General Election
A softer Brexit (Labour's idea) - EU wouldn't support.
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Why would the EU not support Norway style soft Brexit?
Still in customs Union and single market. Still paying for the privilege. EU gets access to the UK market. Still gets UK money. What's not to like?
 
tallladiesman said:
Why would the EU not support Norway style soft Brexit?
Still in customs Union and single market. Still paying for the privilege. EU gets access to the UK market. Still gets UK money. What's not to like?
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Because the UK gets the benefits without contributing as much as the EU would want. If Norway-style was suitable, the Brexit deal negotiated by Theresa May would be it.
 
oggbashan said:
Because the UK gets the benefits without contributing as much as the EU would want. If Norway-style was suitable, the Brexit deal negotiated by Theresa May would be it.
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Wrong. Theresa May ruled out Norway by refusing free access for people. That's why it's not on the table. Nothing to do with the EU. If Britain wanted the same deal as Norway it could have it tomorrow. The problem is Britain thinks it's special and deserves a better deal than Norway and any existing EU member
 
RubenR said:
And what about the option that Europe is fed up with Britain and just tells them to leave asap? No more negotiations, no more waste of time, no delays but just ripping off the bandaid?
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It's the cloak of uncertainty that's so frustrating. It's like getting economists to agree on anything. All the smarmy pundits are giving us a load of bullshit. Cameron should be lynched for what he did.
 
RubenR said:
And what about the option that Europe is fed up with Britain and just tells them to leave asap? No more negotiations, no more waste of time, no delays but just ripping off the bandaid?
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Because that would do untold damage to one of the member states, Ireland, and all 27 countries have to agree on the deal. If Ireland says NO then the EU can't just say get out. That is also the current sticking point on the deal. Ireland is insistent on having an open border which would leave Britain as a backdoor into Europe for any country without an EU trade deal. The current EU offer is designed to give Ireland what they want while closing the back door.
 
It just gets better. More chaos in Westminster tonight. These people could not organize a piss up in a brewery
 
tallladiesman said:
It just gets better. More chaos in Westminster tonight. These people could not organize a piss up in a brewery
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The thinking now is that Theresa May is taking a leaf out of Chris Grayling's book. She is trying to fail her way to success. She now plans to put the same deal before Parliament AGAIN. Unlike failing Grayling she stands a chance of pulling it off.

You have to love the Irony here. The person who said a second referendum would be a betrayal of democracy is making Parliament vote for the third time on the same deal.

The idea is that as it gets closer to leaving day it really will be "My Deal or No Deal".
 
DeYaKen said:
The thinking now is that Theresa May is taking a leaf out of Chris Grayling's book. She is trying to fail her way to success. She now plans to put the same deal before Parliament AGAIN. Unlike failing Grayling she stands a chance of pulling it off.

You have to love the Irony here. The person who said a second referendum would be a betrayal of democracy is making Parliament vote for the third time on the same deal.

The idea is that as it gets closer to leaving day it really will be "My Deal or No Deal".
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With moggie and Borris jumping up and down playing knock down ginger on the doorbells of the Palace of Westminster
 
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