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Holiday Giving

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Karhu-er
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When you have to give the very best!
 
If you're going to give the gift of an anus imprint, it may as well be solid gold. Or platinum, of course.
 
Ever read Dickens' "A Christmas Carol"? One thing I noticed is that the Victorian Brits celebrated Christmas by eating a big dinner and singing carols -- but not by exchanging gifts. When did that custom come in?
 
Kirkrapine said:
Ever read Dickens' "A Christmas Carol"? One thing I noticed is that the Victorian Brits celebrated Christmas by eating a big dinner and singing carols -- but not by exchanging gifts. When did that custom come in?
Click to expand...

It's not discussed in the story but the tradition is from almost since the birth of Christ. Couple hundred years after anyway.
 
IG_88 said:
It's not discussed in the story but the tradition is from almost since the birth of Christ. Couple hundred years after anyway.
Click to expand...

...anyway, in the really real world-

There have long been traditions surrounding the winter solstice, but the reason we have what we think of as "Christmas Presents" has to do with a holiday called "Saturnalia" that was celebrated around the solstice in Rome. It was basically a carnival, a time to get together with friends and family, have a feast, get shitfaced, have awkward sex at your parent's house or in a public venue that you'd traveled to, and give gifts- you know, a Christmas party.

When the empire converted to Christianity, they kept those traditions, the party, the games, and the presents. Because of how strict the Roman Empire was about "converts" fully embracing Roman culture, a lot of local pagan holidays were assimilated into a Christian Roman calendar.

There was a tradition of gift-giving in Dicken's time, and in fact, the ghost of Christmas Present mentions it. It's just that the gifts hadn't gone full capitalism yet. But that's the reason the giant is sitting on a pile of food, candy and shitty toys- those were the most common presents. England had not yet fully embraced the Christmas tree, so most presents had to be small enough to fit into stockings. The Christmas tree was a holdover from Germanic pagan holidays, and Queen Victoria's husband brought it with him, so it had to trickle down to the masses. During Dicken's time, there were Christmas trees, but they were usually either public or for rich folk. So they wouldn't have had the piles and piles of presents up under a tree like we would think of today.

Localhistories.org has a decent chronicle of how Yule (the pre-Christian conversion holiday of the Brittons) became what we now think of as "Christmas", incorporating holidays from a bunch of different places, like Rome and Germany.

It's so weird to me that Christians try to make Christmas traditions "Because Jesus." Jesus hates capitalism and spoke vehemently against consumerism, PARTICULARLY if it infiltrates the church. Jesus would NOT be happy to see people claiming that the capitalist hellscape that is contemporary Christmas has anything to do with him, and if he learned that people called it HIS birthday celebration, we'd see him go full rage mode like he did on the money-changers.

If you want Jesus to like the holiday, go into your living room and chop down that pagan tree, then go out into the world and perform charitable works, all year round, for people who AREN'T your friends and family. Don't give factory-farmed or sweatshop produced things that you bought by fighting your way through a black friday sell.

Christmas is a pagan holiday that goes against everything Jesus stood for. And that comparison doesn't even make sense. You don't give your family presents on other people's birthday. If it really was Jesus's birthday, then knowing what we know about him, what he would want is a bunch of those cards that say, "A charitable donation has been made in your name to X".
 
Kirkrapine said:
Ever read Dickens' "A Christmas Carol"? One thing I noticed is that the Victorian Brits celebrated Christmas by eating a big dinner and singing carols -- but not by exchanging gifts. When did that custom come in?
Click to expand...

In Oliver Twist, Fagan gave the Artful Dodger season tickets to the Lakers.
 
A few years ago on NPR I heard an interview with the author of a history of Christmas. Before the 19th Century, Christmas was rowdy -- to the point of being dangerous; well-to-do people shuttered their windows, for defense against riotous drunks.
 
I once saw Andy Rooney on 60 Minutes argue that since nobody really knows when Jesus was born, we should move Xmas to February, when everybody's sick of winter and a festive holiday would really be welcome.
 
Kirkrapine said:
I once saw Andy Rooney on 60 Minutes argue that since nobody really knows when Jesus was born, we should move Xmas to February, when everybody's sick of winter and a festive holiday would really be welcome.
Click to expand...
Andy Rooney knew all,,,,, so I say lets do it and change it......
 
Kirkrapine said:
I once saw Andy Rooney on 60 Minutes argue that since nobody really knows when Jesus was born, we should move Xmas to February, when everybody's sick of winter and a festive holiday would really be welcome.
Click to expand...

I mean, we know that at the time census was usually taken in the summer. So like... we have a basic jumping off point. He's probably a cancer or a leo.
 
CandiCame said:
...anyway, in the really real world-

There have long been traditions surrounding the winter solstice, but the reason we have what we think of as "Christmas Presents" has to do with a holiday called "Saturnalia" that was celebrated around the solstice in Rome. It was basically a carnival, a time to get together with friends and family, have a feast, get shitfaced, have awkward sex at your parent's house or in a public venue that you'd traveled to, and give gifts- you know, a Christmas party.

When the empire converted to Christianity, they kept those traditions, the party, the games, and the presents. Because of how strict the Roman Empire was about "converts" fully embracing Roman culture, a lot of local pagan holidays were assimilated into a Christian Roman calendar.

There was a tradition of gift-giving in Dicken's time, and in fact, the ghost of Christmas Present mentions it. It's just that the gifts hadn't gone full capitalism yet. But that's the reason the giant is sitting on a pile of food, candy and shitty toys- those were the most common presents. England had not yet fully embraced the Christmas tree, so most presents had to be small enough to fit into stockings. The Christmas tree was a holdover from Germanic pagan holidays, and Queen Victoria's husband brought it with him, so it had to trickle down to the masses. During Dicken's time, there were Christmas trees, but they were usually either public or for rich folk. So they wouldn't have had the piles and piles of presents up under a tree like we would think of today.

Localhistories.org has a decent chronicle of how Yule (the pre-Christian conversion holiday of the Brittons) became what we now think of as "Christmas", incorporating holidays from a bunch of different places, like Rome and Germany.

It's so weird to me that Christians try to make Christmas traditions "Because Jesus." Jesus hates capitalism and spoke vehemently against consumerism, PARTICULARLY if it infiltrates the church. Jesus would NOT be happy to see people claiming that the capitalist hellscape that is contemporary Christmas has anything to do with him, and if he learned that people called it HIS birthday celebration, we'd see him go full rage mode like he did on the money-changers.

If you want Jesus to like the holiday, go into your living room and chop down that pagan tree, then go out into the world and perform charitable works, all year round, for people who AREN'T your friends and family. Don't give factory-farmed or sweatshop produced things that you bought by fighting your way through a black friday sell.

Christmas is a pagan holiday that goes against everything Jesus stood for. And that comparison doesn't even make sense. You don't give your family presents on other people's birthday. If it really was Jesus's birthday, then knowing what we know about him, what he would want is a bunch of those cards that say, "A charitable donation has been made in your name to X".
Click to expand...
Oh it's another one of those "but Christmas is pagan!" things. We know. Everyone knows.
Why the fuck does everyone who says this shit think they're telling anyone something new?
 
IG_88 said:
Oh it's another one of those "but Christmas is pagan!" things. We know. Everyone knows.
Why the fuck does everyone who says this shit think they're telling anyone something new?
Click to expand...

Read what I wrote again but slowly.

See how it actually answers the question the poster asked about gift giving? The one that was asked?

You're really letting me into a habit you have of just... not reading well. This is the second post where someone asked a question, I answered it, and then you asked me why I answered it.

Edit: Your assertion that gift giving was historically linked to the birth of Christ was straight up wrong. You were spreading misinformation, and I corrected it. People were giving gifts on the solstice before Christianity existed.
 
CandiCame said:
I mean, we know that at the time census was usually taken in the summer.
Click to expand...

But we also know that the first Roman census of Judea was not taken until ten years after Herod the Great died, so it is almost certainly not true that one was ongoing when Jesus was born.

And we also know the Romans did not conduct a census in such a preposterously inconvenient way as requiring people to travel to an ancestral home town to register. The census was mainly for tax purposes -- people registered where they lived, which was where they would be paying taxes from.
 
Last edited:
Kirkrapine said:
But we also know that the first Roman census of Judea was not taken until ten years after Herod the Great died, so it is almost certainly not true that one was ongoing when Jesus was born.

And we also know the Romans did not conduct a census in such a preposterously inconvenient way as requiring people to travel to an ancestral home town to register. The census was mainly for tax purposes -- people registered where they lived, which was where they would be paying taxes from.
Click to expand...

You have to suspend your disbelief sometimes when you read a story, Kirk.
 
CandiCame said:
Read what I wrote again but slowly.

See how it actually answers the question the poster asked about gift giving? The one that was asked?

You're really letting me into a habit you have of just... not reading well. This is the second post where someone asked a question, I answered it, and then you asked me why I answered it.

Edit: Your assertion that gift giving was historically linked to the birth of Christ was straight up wrong. You were spreading misinformation, and I corrected it. People were giving gifts on the solstice before Christianity existed.
Click to expand...

It was about Christmas not what was before. With A Christmas Carol as context. Christmas as we know it with the gifts and whatnot was a couple hundred years or so after Christ. Like I said. You chose to add on the whole history and pretend it's the only way to answer said question. No nuance with you assholes. Everything is so literal. Jeebus.
 
Kirkrapine said:
But we also know that the first Roman census of Judea was not taken until ten years after Herod the Great died, so it is almost certainly not true that one was ongoing when Jesus was born.

And we also know the Romans did not conduct a census in such a preposterously inconvenient way as requiring people to travel to an ancestral home town to register. The census was mainly for tax purposes -- people registered where they lived, which was where they would be paying taxes from.
Click to expand...

It is thought that Luke either made a mistake or was just flat out wrong. He was a doctor not a writer, damnit!
 
IG_88 said:
It was about Christmas not what was before. With A Christmas Carol as context. Christmas as we know it with the gifts and whatnot was a couple hundred years or so after Christ. Like I said. You chose to add on the whole history and pretend it's the only way to answer said question. No nuance with you assholes. Everything is so literal. Jeebus.
Click to expand...

Knowing what that holiday was in Dickens's time requires a working knowledge of what came before it. That's how history works. It didn't spring fully formed with the church of England. The holiday has way more history with the REGION than it does with Christ.
 
CandiCame said:
You have to suspend your disbelief sometimes when you read a story, Kirk.
Click to expand...

But, this is important. Luke appears to have told the story that way to show -- dishonestly -- that Jesus fulfilled certain OT prophecies.

It's like the passage in the Gospel of John where it says, "He was not the light but came to bear witness to the light." Protesting too much -- probably because at the time there were still many Jews who believed John the Baptist, not Jesus, was the Messiah. After all, everybody knows Jesus went to John to be baptized, so how could John be lesser?!

And, BTW, there are still some people in the MENA who believe John the Baptist was the Messiah. See Mandaeism.
 
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