The Men Who's Wives Have No Sex Drive Support Club

littlecordelera said:

This thread has turned into the "He-Man Women Hater's Club." Any suggestion that a male might be at fault is simply unacceptable.

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That is nonsense. Men are constantly told that we are not being understanding enough or not doing enough to engage her or being unrealistic. That is the default position and there is plenty of it here as well.

Quite the opposite we are always told it is our fault. No matter how unreceptive she it is always because of what we have or haven't done. It is you who seem unable to grasp the possibility that the problem isn't always with the man's inability to execute the perfect routine. Meanwhile if she is called upon to do any more than show up obviously the man is wrong.

In the same boat!!

So many of us guys seem to suffer from having wives with a lower libido than us or who have simply gone off sex later in life.
I have been married over 40 years (over 70 years old now) and have always had a high sex drive. We did have great sex in the early years but once the kids arrived our sex life took a nose dive so I have always masturbated frequently to relieve my sexual frustration.
I have also had a jerk buddy and enjoyed that whenever we could meet up.
Recently on the few occasions my wife was in the mood, she would cum fairly quickly but I seemed to take a long time to ejaculate and it got worse so she started to give up on trying to make me cum and now we just don't have sex at all.
I can cum fairly easily by masturbating if I have some stimulation to help - such as watching erotic videos or reading erotic stories on Literotica although with age it does take a bit longer.
I have also found that I get turned on more now by watching men in sexy videos, especially speedo videos. I still enjoy women enormously but as the chances of having real sex with women has diminished, I find myself going to a place out in the country where men in similar situations meet up for sexual relief.
I think we just have to keep masturbating to reduce the sexual tension and thank goodness the internet was invented!
I wish I could have a bit more private time to get naked and have a marathon masturbation session. Maybe if there are any similar guys out there who could host a get together we could meet up and enjoy some "relief".

KimGordon67 said:

Ditto. I still to this today have no idea why I lost interest, but when it came back, it came back with a vengeance. I would have totally understood if my husband had left me during that time - and he only stayed because he loved me. We have no interest in being together for financial reasons, or because it's 'better for the children', so it's only really because of our care for each other. I was so pleased when things changed, as much for him as for me.

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I think that's what drew me to post here. I was the spouse with no sex drive, and I thank my husband for understanding and loving me for me. Now that I have that mindset or hormones, we are making up for all the lost days.

SlutAddicted said:

That is nonsense. Men are constantly told that we are not being understanding enough or not doing enough to engage her or being unrealistic. That is the default position and there is plenty of it here as well.

Quite the opposite we are always told it is our fault. No matter how unreceptive she it is always because of what we have or haven't done. It is you who seem unable to grasp the possibility that the problem isn't always with the man's inability to execute the perfect routine. Meanwhile if she is called upon to do any more than show up obviously the man is wrong.

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Someone gets it. In the modern day, feminism has evolved so much that "princess mentality" is everywhere. I believe that no matter what I earn,no matter how comfortable life is, no matter how little my wife has toworry about... She'd find something, and it'd be my fault.


I could earn £10m a year, working an hour a month, spend all my time looking after her and the kids. Have an army of professionals to take care of our home that was exactly what she wanted.

And do you know what, it's not be right. Someone, somewhere would do something she didn't agree with and it'd be my fault.


As we've got older, I now understand that she "projects". So when suffering from a lack of body confidence, or is moody, or has let the house become a mess... It's easier to blame me.

She's currently about 25% overweight since the kids. Instead of doing something about it, she's started making snide remarks about my weight, appearance, etc.

I haven't changed.


Some days, I do wonder why I stay.

willycum said:

So many of us guys seem to suffer from having wives with a lower libido than us or who have simply gone off sex later in life.
I have been married over 40 years (over 70 years old now) and have always had a high sex drive. We did have great sex in the early years but once the kids arrived our sex life took a nose dive so I have always masturbated frequently to relieve my sexual frustration.
I have also had a jerk buddy and enjoyed that whenever we could meet up.
Recently on the few occasions my wife was in the mood, she would cum fairly quickly but I seemed to take a long time to ejaculate and it got worse so she started to give up on trying to make me cum and now we just don't have sex at all.
I can cum fairly easily by masturbating if I have some stimulation to help - such as watching erotic videos or reading erotic stories on Literotica although with age it does take a bit longer.
I have also found that I get turned on more now by watching men in sexy videos, especially speedo videos. I still enjoy women enormously but as the chances of having real sex with women has diminished, I find myself going to a place out in the country where men in similar situations meet up for sexual relief.
I think we just have to keep masturbating to reduce the sexual tension and thank goodness the internet was invented!
I wish I could have a bit more private time to get naked and have a marathon masturbation session. Maybe if there are any similar guys out there who could host a get together we could meet up and enjoy some "relief".

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It's not uncommon for men to become interest in other men as they enter into their mid 50's. This happens regardless to how much female contact they may have...it's just an interest that they want to explore. Whether it's simply watching bi or gay porn, joining j/o groups or actually having sex with another man.
Yes, sometimes this new found interest is the result of a lack of sex with their female partner but usually it's a desire that just develops.

OK, I really take exception to this, and the post by SA. This is not 'women' or 'feminism' - this is your relationship, as an individual, with another individual. If you read the posts from myself, or LoL, you'll see plenty of women in this position don't feel happy about, don't blame their partners, and are perfectly aware there's a problem. We just don't know what to do about it. And that's really scary. So yeah, it's easier to just think about something else.

I'm not saying that's the case with your wives - but if she IS being unreasonable about it and if you're choosing to stay anyway, then you should shoulder some of the responsibility for perpetuating the situation you're in yourselves.

Sorry, I know this is not what this thread is for, and I'll delete this rant if anyone's particularly offended (although why anyone would be offended by the ramblings of a complete stranger half a world away would puzzle me), but I don't like seeing women or feminism blamed for these situations. If anything's to blame, it's the shift in thinking about sex, the move to assuming that we're all entitled to full and gratifying sex lives well into our 70s. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but let's direct the 'blame' where it should be. A hundred years ago, none of this would have been an issue, and you'd all have been sleeping in separate beds/rooms a while back.

newhere2learn said:

Someone gets it. In the modern day, feminism has evolved so much that "princess mentality" is everywhere. I believe that no matter what I earn,no matter how comfortable life is, no matter how little my wife has toworry about... She'd find something, and it'd be my fault.


I could earn £10m a year, working an hour a month, spend all my time looking after her and the kids. Have an army of professionals to take care of our home that was exactly what she wanted.

And do you know what, it's not be right. Someone, somewhere would do something she didn't agree with and it'd be my fault.


As we've got older, I now understand that she "projects". So when suffering from a lack of body confidence, or is moody, or has let the house become a mess... It's easier to blame me.

She's currently about 25% overweight since the kids. Instead of doing something about it, she's started making snide remarks about my weight, appearance, etc.

I haven't changed.


Some days, I do wonder why I stay.

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KimGordon67 said:

OK, I r be. A hundred years ago, none of this would have been an issue, and you'd all have been sleeping in separate beds/rooms a while back.

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We're 30. .... Separate beds?

KimGordon67 said:

OK, I really take exception to this, and the post by SA. This is not 'women' or 'feminism' - this is your relationship, as an individual, with another individual. If you read the posts from myself, or LoL, you'll see plenty of women in this position don't feel happy about, don't blame their partners, and are perfectly aware there's a problem. We just don't know what to do about it. And that's really scary. So yeah, it's easier to just think about something else.

I'm not saying that's the case with your wives - but if she IS being unreasonable about it and if you're choosing to stay anyway, then you should shoulder some of the responsibility for perpetuating the situation you're in yourselves.

Sorry, I know this is not what this thread is for, and I'll delete this rant if anyone's particularly offended (although why anyone would be offended by the ramblings of a complete stranger half a world away would puzzle me), but I don't like seeing women or feminism blamed for these situations. If anything's to blame, it's the shift in thinking about sex, the move to assuming that we're all entitled to full and gratifying sex lives well into our 70s. I'm not saying that's a bad thing, but let's direct the 'blame' where it should be. A hundred years ago, none of this would have been an issue, and you'd all have been sleeping in separate beds/rooms a while back.

Click to expand...

I don't believe that my post blamed women or feminism. My point is that it is quite possible that in any given situation that the wife might be just as responsible for the circumstances as the man and the default position among many (and I said not all) that it is up to the man to try harder is not fair. Furthermore my comment was in response to a comment by LC that was tagging this as the He-Man Haters club, not to the rationale comments that you have made.

From a male point of view I feel as though there is a visceral resistance to the prospect that any wife is ever being unreasonable or selfish - I am not speaking of all wives or attributing their behaviour to feminism or anything else in particular. Nor am I suggesting that she should "just get over it." But I am saying that not every woman who is neglecting her man's sexual needs is really doing her best. Some such as yourself go through tough times but do truly empathize with there husbands. Others don't - they just check out and dismiss their husband's needs.

I'm not saying all or even a majority. But we have no problem with the concept of a selfish and insensitive man - why is it so hard to imagine such behaviour in a woman? Why does the mere suggestion of the possibility get everyone's dander up?

To the extent that a wife is being unreasonable it is unfair to say that it is partly the man's fault simply because he chooses to stay - you are wrong about that because you know damn well there could be many other reasons he chooses to stick it out. But he is contributing to the situation if he chooses not to see it for what it is a constantly accept the premise that it is up to him to try harder. That is my point - not to blame women in general but to make it ok for a man to look at his situation honestly. Recognizing that it is possible for a wife to be selfish doesn't make us haters.

There are circumstances where a guy is just being an insensitive jerk - no qualifiers, no excuses and certainly no blaming his wife.

The same can apply to women. Anyone who cannot accept that reality is gender biased.

It is rarely that simple of course. There are always complicating circumstances. But that is life isn't it? The jerk always has a reason for his/her behaviour. The issue is whether they are making any real effort to overcome those issues for the sake of their partner.

Clarity of thought around that point is important.

It is hard to argue against more understanding but sometimes that isn't enough and the constant push (and advice) in that direction just results in staying in a bad situation too long. Even if you stay with your spouse, moving on to accept who they are is a source of peace of mind.

SlutAddicted said:

I don't believe that my post blamed women or feminism. My point is that it is quite possible that in any given situation that the wife might be just as responsible for the circumstances as the man and the default position among many (and I said not all) that it is up to the man to try harder is not fair. Furthermore my comment was in response to a comment by LC that was tagging this as the He-Man Haters club, not to the rationale comments that you have made.

From a male point of view I feel as though there is a visceral resistance to the prospect that any wife is ever being unreasonable or selfish - I am not speaking of all wives or attributing their behaviour to feminism or anything else in particular. Nor am I suggesting that she should "just get over it." But I am saying that not every woman who is neglecting her man's sexual needs is really doing her best. Some such as yourself go through tough times but do truly empathize with there husbands. Others don't - they just check out and dismiss their husband's needs.

I'm not saying all or even a majority. But we have no problem with the concept of a selfish and insensitive man - why is it so hard to imagine such behaviour in a woman? Why does the mere suggestion of the possibility get everyone's dander up?

To the extent that a wife is being unreasonable it is unfair to say that it is partly the man's fault simply because he chooses to stay - you are wrong about that because you know damn well there could be many other reasons he chooses to stick it out. But he is contributing to the situation if he chooses not to see it for what it is a constantly accept the premise that it is up to him to try harder. That is my point - not to blame women in general but to make it ok for a man to look at his situation honestly. Recognizing that it is possible for a wife to be selfish doesn't make us haters.

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Re: the first bolded point - who is 'we' here?
I have no problem at with the concept of a selfish/insensitive woman. In fact, I know many personally. I think that gendered these situations unnecessarily is potentially distracting from what's actually going on.

Re: the second bolded point - I actually wrote quite a bit after that comment, and then deleted it because I worried it was over-complicating the issue. Yes, there are other reasons people choose to stay in relationships. In many of the instances in this thread, as I've noted repeatedly, the guys have chosen to stay because they love their wives, and understand that they are getting other things from the relationship, but they miss the sex and are a bit sad about that, even though they understand why it's happened, which I think is pretty reasonable. However, there's a significant chunk of posts in here that indicate a fair degree of dislike of their wives, and/or a fair degree of (what I would consider to be) unacceptable behaviour from the wives.

So, in those instances, lets assume the guys are choosing to stay for other reasons - financial, children, whatever. What I'm saying is that in those instances, it's still a choice (and not I personally would make). Given that, even if you didn't create the situation, you are taking some part in perpetuating it because you've chosen to prioritise other factors. Therefore, yes, I think you need to accept some responsibility for things remaining the way they are - which, really, is what the first group of guys I described above have done.

My wife certainly was in the "don't know what to do about it" group. She knew we weren't having sex. Knew I wasn't happy. Knew she didn't want sex. None of that was a revelation. The fact that she felt lost and alone was. To be honest, that didn't occur to me until she said it.

I think part of the problem is that a sexual dry spell is often accompanied by a communication break down. We start making assumptions instead of communication and listening to our lover. We wait until the situation is at a boil and then confront, in the name of trying to be considerate. We try not to force the issue because no one wants to force someone they love to have sex. We wait and wait and suddenly make our feelings and frustration known and then wait for something to change in response. One spouse feels better having gotten the problem out in the open and the other feels ambushed. We try to solve the problem on our own, read advice columns, try to make changes, etc ad nauseam but do it quietly hoping that something will change.

In my case my wife noticed the changes, appreciated them, and then felt guilty because she didn't want sex. She felt like the changes were about sex instead of about our marriage. Cleaning the dishes and doing the laundry in exchange for sex is not very sexy. Of course I didn't see it that way. I was trying to make her day easier and to help her, but the reason that got that ball rolling was sex and at the end of day sex was the gorilla in the room that we avoided talking about but wanted to happen.

What has thankfully worked for me is to have stopped walking on eggshells sexually. It is crucial that my wife wants to be sexual even if it's not always on her mind. That allows me to tell her when things are off track long before it's a problem and gives us (not just her) a chance to work together. There was more than enough blame to spread between us but it was wrong to think in terms of blame.

Honestly, the fact that both of us care is more important. If she didn't then love, kids, finances, family expectations and all of that would be trumped by a sense of hopelessness. Not caring would have meant that my love wasn't returned, and that would have been the death blow.

Butt she did care. From there it became about learning to communicate and see each other's perspective. It was compromise and learning to work together because the health of our marriage was more important than who was to blame or who was doing what to contribute to the problem. Understanding that we both had a responsibility to communicate with each other and try to work on our sex life but at the same time more than sex was critical. We had to love each other in order to have any chance of getting our sex life back on the rails.

I had to ask my wife, "Do you care enough about me and our marriage to try to work this out?" Then we could ask how I could change, how she could, and start trying.

You made me cry. Nice work - that's not easily done.

pplwatching said:

My wife certainly was in the "don't know what to do about it" group. She knew we weren't having sex. Knew I wasn't happy. Knew she didn't want sex. None of that was a revelation. The fact that she felt lost and alone was. To be honest, that didn't occur to me until she said it.

I think part of the problem is that a sexual dry spell is often accompanied by a communication break down. We start making assumptions instead of communication and listening to our lover. We wait until the situation is at a boil and then confront, in the name of trying to be considerate. We try not to force the issue because no one wants to force someone they love to have sex. We wait and wait and suddenly make our feelings and frustration known and then wait for something to change in response. One spouse feels better having gotten the problem out in the open and the other feels ambushed. We try to solve the problem on our own, read advice columns, try to make changes, etc ad nauseam but do it quietly hoping that something will change.

In my case my wife noticed the changes, appreciated them, and then felt guilty because she didn't want sex. She felt like the changes were about sex instead of about our marriage. Cleaning the dishes and doing the laundry in exchange for sex is not very sexy. Of course I didn't see it that way. I was trying to make her day easier and to help her, but the reason that got that ball rolling was sex and at the end of day sex was the gorilla in the room that we avoided talking about but wanted to happen.

What has thankfully worked for me is to have stopped walking on eggshells sexually. It is crucial that my wife wants to be sexual even if it's not always on her mind. That allows me to tell her when things are off track long before it's a problem and gives us (not just her) a chance to work together. There was more than enough blame to spread between us but it was wrong to think in terms of blame.

Honestly, the fact that both of us care is more important. If she didn't then love, kids, finances, family expectations and all of that would be trumped by a sense of hopelessness. Not caring would have meant that my love wasn't returned, and that would have been the death blow.

Butt she did care. From there it became about learning to communicate and see each other's perspective. It was compromise and learning to work together because the health of our marriage was more important than who was to blame or who was doing what to contribute to the problem. Understanding that we both had a responsibility to communicate with each other and try to work on our sex life but at the same time more than sex was critical. We had to love each other in order to have any chance of getting our sex life back on the rails.

I had to ask my wife, "Do you care enough about me and our marriage to try to work this out?" Then we could ask how I could change, how she could, and start trying.

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KimGordon67 said:

Re: the first bolded point - who is 'we' here?
I have no problem at with the concept of a selfish/insensitive woman. In fact, I know many personally. I think that gendered these situations unnecessarily is potentially distracting from what's actually going on.

Re: the second bolded point - I actually wrote quite a bit after that comment, and then deleted it because I worried it was over-complicating the issue. Yes, there are other reasons people choose to stay in relationships. In many of the instances in this thread, as I've noted repeatedly, the guys have chosen to stay because they love their wives, and understand that they are getting other things from the relationship, but they miss the sex and are a bit sad about that, even though they understand why it's happened, which I think is pretty reasonable. However, there's a significant chunk of posts in here that indicate a fair degree of dislike of their wives, and/or a fair degree of (what I would consider to be) unacceptable behaviour from the wives.

So, in those instances, lets assume the guys are choosing to stay for other reasons - financial, children, whatever. What I'm saying is that in those instances, it's still a choice (and not I personally would make). Given that, even if you didn't create the situation, you are taking some part in perpetuating it because you've chosen to prioritise other factors. Therefore, yes, I think you need to accept some responsibility for things remaining the way they are - which, really, is what the first group of guys I described above have done.

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If a person chooses to remain in a relationship in spite of dysfunction (sexual or otherwise) then yes they are partly responsible for their circumstances. But they don't automatically bare responsibility for the dysfunction itself.

That distinction is important to what I am trying to say.

It is entirely valid to encourage people to pursue all of the constructive approaches to their relationship just as it is to recognize that there is (at least) two sides to every story. But we must also recognize the possibility that won't be enough.

When that happens each person needs to be able to get to the emotional and mental place of realizing that they have done all they can. They can't alter the dysfunction and that is not their fault. Period. No rationalization or getting twisted up in semantics. The endless advice to try harder becomes misguided and unhelpful. It encourages an unhappy person to return to blaming themselves. For anyone struggling with this type of situation they need to be able liberate themselves from that premise in order to be able to make a truly balanced decision.

This isn't inherently a gendered issue. But I do perceive that society in general is more willing to accept the premise that a woman has done all she can and her husband is the problem than the other way around. Likewise we seem to be more inclined to seek to understand mitigating circumstances when it is a woman who is behaving selfishly.

Titts4Tatts said:

A wife's viewpoint. Forgive me that I'm not as great at writing/wording as many of you are.

I was married for 36 years. We waited until marriage to have sex. From the get go it was awesome. Incredible type of awesome. We would make out 3-4 times a day. Even after I had a child the sex was still great. Morning, noon or night sex count me in.

What changed for us wasn't either of our libidos. It was his lack of attention in many other areas. That's merely my opinion. I'm not bashing him. At his job he has always been a hard worker. But at home he became a slacker ,. I tried keeping up with home maintenance and landscaping. But after my 40's then 50's my body just couldn't keep up. I still wanted sex. Still achieved orgasm easily. But dammned if I was going to touch a man who was cool with me doing 90% of basically everything. I mowed the grass. I ran the weed eater. I was in charge of caring for a wee one. I washed my own car. I cleaned the pool. I killed the spiders. Why the heck shouldn't I get my own self off.

I didn't like feeling that way. I missed that physical touch. But the resentment got to me so I just slowly pulled away. And yes. I tried talking. Counseling. Begging. Pleading. Tears. A chore chart showing just how much of the work I was doing. Keep in mind I also had a full time job. I wasn't a stay at home Mom. I became exhausted and said no more. It's been about two years I guess . I miss it. I want it. Just not with him.

I wish I knew how to fix things. But I can't do it by myself. And I'm sure not going to be anyones yardboy any longer. For several years I worked harder than any wife ever should. Again, just my opinion and how I feel.

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Sorry to hear that this is how things have evolved for you. I am sympathetic to your situation. I view this type of circumstance on the basis that your feelings are not optional - you feel what you feel, you can't simply choose to feel otherwise. All things considered not wanting to be with him is not surprising.

On a broader note I am curious how the nature of the circumstances affects your or other people's perceptions of the situation. What you describe fits a bit of a male stereotype or at least a situation we can easily imagine so most of us don't really delve in to the reasons for his behaviour. Subconsciously we accept our own pre-existing bias as to the likely cause of his behaviour. Some of us assume he is selfish, lazy or self involved. Others might assume that this is a symptom of a disconnect elsewhere in the relationship which could be your fault or his or both.

What is curious to me is that of the comments to your post none addressed or even raised potential reasons or mitigating circumstances causing his behaviour. Nobody gave you a lecture about how challenging his job might be, or how he might be struggling with depression or self-image, or offered up trite advice about how to make him feel wanted, or told you it was up to you to get him in the mood, or chided you for being shallow for getting put off by something as mundane as chores, or told you that it was all on you to be more understanding.

One guy went off the deep end and blamed you for all evil bitches everywhere with no connection to your actual comments. Everyone else showed empathy and took your description at face value.

It is perfectly reasonable to consider the possibility that there is another side to this story but nobody jumped to the conclusion that you hadn't considered his point of view or were unable to comprehend it.

SlutAddicted said:

If a person chooses to remain in a relationship in spite of dysfunction (sexual or otherwise) then yes they are partly responsible for their circumstances. But they don't automatically bare responsibility for the dysfunction itself.

That distinction is important to what I am trying to say.

It is entirely valid to encourage people to pursue all of the constructive approaches to their relationship just as it is to recognize that there is (at least) two sides to every story. But we must also recognize the possibility that won't be enough.

When that happens each person needs to be able to get to the emotional and mental place of realizing that they have done all they can. They can't alter the dysfunction and that is not their fault. Period. No rationalization or getting twisted up in semantics. The endless advice to try harder becomes misguided and unhelpful. It encourages an unhappy person to return to blaming themselves. For anyone struggling with this type of situation they need to be able liberate themselves from that premise in order to be able to make a truly balanced decision.

This isn't inherently a gendered issue. But I do perceive that society in general is more willing to accept the premise that a woman has done all she can and her husband is the problem than the other way around. Likewise we seem to be more inclined to seek to understand mitigating circumstances when it is a woman who is behaving selfishly.

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I never said they bear responsibility for the 'dysfunction', but if they choose to stay, they need to accept responsibility for perpetuating the situation.

I don't think that second point is necessarily the case. There's certainly a counter argument to be made for the common perception of the shrew-wife and the put-upon-husband who does all he can but it's never enough, and how 'unfair' that is.
I'm actually saying that in a fair few instances being discussed here, the wives sound positively awful, and I honestly can't imagine why the guys are staying (except that we've established that there must be other reasons for that). If that's the case, I'm (again) saying - you decided what your priorities are, so the situation in which you continue to find yourself is, in part, one of your own making. I am not, however, suggesting that they 'try harder'. I don't think that 'trying harder' is the fix for all relationship issues.

I am, however (again), also saying that in some of the cases where there just seems to have be a lack of communication, there could be some recognition that the wives themselves feel awful, but just don't know what to do. (See pplwatching's post above, for example.)

The problem here is that this thread has a wide range of specific situations in it. I think some of what I'm saying - actually, probably most of what I'm saying - is attempting to address one specific type of situation, and you're reading it as universal. I'm certainly not intending my comments to be universalised, so if I've written them in a way that they could be read as such, I apologise.

KimGordon67 said:

I never said they bear responsibility for the 'dysfunction', but if they choose to stay, they need to accept responsibility for perpetuating the situation.

I don't think that second point is necessarily the case. There's certainly a counter argument to be made for the common perception of the shrew-wife and the put-upon-husband who does all he can but it's never enough, and how 'unfair' that is.
I'm actually saying that in a fair few instances being discussed here, the wives sound positively awful, and I honestly can't imagine why the guys are staying (except that we've established that there must be other reasons for that). If that's the case, I'm (again) saying - you decided what your priorities are, so the situation in which you continue to find yourself is, in part, one of your own making. I am not, however, suggesting that they 'try harder'. I don't think that 'trying harder' is the fix for all relationship issues.

I am, however (again), also saying that in some of the cases where there just seems to have be a lack of communication, there could be some recognition that the wives themselves feel awful, but just don't know what to do. (See pplwatching's post above, for example.)

The problem here is that this thread has a wide range of specific situations in it. I think some of what I'm saying - actually, probably most of what I'm saying - is attempting to address one specific type of situation, and you're reading it as universal. I'm certainly not intending my comments to be universalised, so if I've written them in a way that they could be read as such, I apologise.

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I know you never said they bear responsibility for this dysfunction. I am not refuting or undermining the point you were making.....just clarifying the distinction from my point. The two are not incompatible.

The point that if you chose to stay in a dysfunctional situation you bear some responsibility for the outcome is in complete synchronicity with the premise that you may need to come grips with the reality that sometimes it isn't your fault and you can't change that. In fact, the latter is implied by the former. My point in highlighting the latter is to help anybody in this situation to see it for what it is and take responsibility for their outcome.

Whether society is more balanced or presumptuous with either gender in these situations is a matter of perspective. There is no right answer and neither of us is in a position to be truly objective. We all tend to be most aware of that which we find most egregious and these things change over time.

There is indeed a counter argument for the image of the shrew wife and the put upon husband. Is that more prevalent or entrenched than the image of the asshole husband and the long suffering wife? I don't know. But in western liberal society in 2017 I believe that there is a greater propensity to jump to the defence of the presumed shrew than the presumed asshole. It was the other way around within our lifetimes but not today.

You and I have had similar such conversations on other threads. In general I find that you are quite willing to accept an honest view of people. You don't default to gender stereotypes and actually seem quite put off by them. That is not typical of most women I encounter who are put off by female stereotypes but indulge male stereotypes.

I know your comments are not intended to be universal. Nor are mine. Your point that "she" may feel awful but just doesn't know what to do about it is insightful and well taken. I am not trying to take away from any of it. I am sorry if it seems like I am.

This exchange between you and I started because I responded to LCs assertion that this thread had become the He-Man Haters club with no acceptance of the possibility that a man could be at fault. You took exception to my response. Do you think that what LC said was a fair statement?

No, I think LC's statement was probably an over-generalisation too. I'll admit when I first started following this thread, I was a bit 'oh really?', but I've learnt a lot about the incredibly wide range of guys who find themselves in this situation, and have a massive amount of respect of many of them (my husband included, by default, even though he's not on Lit). But there are also quite a few guys who seem to find it easier to blame 'women' than either look at how they might be contributing to the situation and/or think about how it might be resolved.

But I do think your response was a little over-generalising too.

Shall we both just back down a bit and get a drink?

SlutAddicted said:

I know you never said they bear responsibility for this dysfunction. I am not refuting or undermining the point you were making.....just clarifying the distinction from my point. The two are not incompatible.

The point that if you chose to stay in a dysfunctional situation you bear some responsibility for the outcome is in complete synchronicity with the premise that you may need to come grips with the reality that sometimes it isn't your fault and you can't change that. In fact, the latter is implied by the former. My point in highlighting the latter is to help anybody in this situation to see it for what it is and take responsibility for their outcome.

Whether society is more balanced or presumptuous with either gender in these situations is a matter of perspective. There is no right answer and neither of us is in a position to be truly objective. We all tend to be most aware of that which we find most egregious and these things change over time.

There is indeed a counter argument for the image of the shrew wife and the put upon husband. Is that more prevalent or entrenched than the image of the asshole husband and the long suffering wife? I don't know. But in western liberal society in 2017 I believe that there is a greater propensity to jump to the defence of the presumed shrew than the presumed asshole. It was the other way around within our lifetimes but not today.

You and I have had similar such conversations on other threads. In general I find that you are quite willing to accept an honest view of people. You don't default to gender stereotypes and actually seem quite put off by them. That is not typical of most women I encounter who are put off by female stereotypes but indulge male stereotypes.

I know your comments are not intended to be universal. Nor are mine. Your point that "she" may feel awful but just doesn't know what to do about it is insightful and well taken. I am not trying to take away from any of it. I am sorry if it seems like I am.

This exchange between you and I started because I responded to LCs assertion that this thread had become the He-Man Haters club with no acceptance of the possibility that a man could be at fault. You took exception to my response. Do you think that what LC said was a fair statement?

Click to expand...

SlutAddicted said:

Likewise we seem to be more inclined to seek to understand mitigating circumstances when it is a woman who is behaving selfishly.

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I've noticed this. Few examples where the guy has been either unfaithful or less than ideal, all and sundry have encouraged the wife to banish him from her life.


Then at least 3 examples of the wife having a breakdown, affair, or just simply behaving like a spoilt princess teenager....guess what?

That was the guys fault too. He was neglectful towards her, because he worked long hours...Bor worked away... Or in one instance, spent time with his son.

So a cheating husband is Satan. And a cheating wife, blames her husband.


False DV claim, and lie to everyone seems to be the modus operandi in such instances.. something I experienced personally.

Even when I had physical injuries, called 5-0.... And she didn't have a mark on her... Was me removed from the property... Was me banished to my parents... Was me who had mutual friends looking for me to give me a beating.

I kept my mouth shut for months, until I was no longer allowed in certain bars due to her lies.

Wife and I do not have a great sex life. We are still young (approx 30) and are not sexless, but it is very infrequent. We average 1x per month, though occasionally it will extend longer than that.

Has always been this way (except in the really early days of dating, though even then it wasn't a lot.

Wife was raised to feel uncomfortable about her sexuality and family did not openly discuss sex or sex health. She also had a bad first experience with sex and her first sex partner at a fairly young age.

We have very different libidos, which is the first challenge. Then we struggle with who should initiate. I have become very afraid to initiate because of being turned down so many times over the years. It's painful. She doesn't feel comfortable or confident initiating even when she is in the mood. I also don't want to feel like I am "forcing" her or "pressuring" into it. She the result is we go weeks and months with no intimate contact.

There are times this puts a real strain on our relationship. I have offered to get us a sex therapist. She declined. I have bought us books. She hasn't read them, though seemed appreciative. I make sure I am contributing the household. I do my fair share.

She is my best friend and I love her. But there are days I feel hopeless and wish she were also my lover.

KimGordon67 said:

No, I think LC's statement was probably an over-generalisation too. I'll admit when I first started following this thread, I was a bit 'oh really?', but I've learnt a lot about the incredibly wide range of guys who find themselves in this situation, and have a massive amount of respect of many of them (my husband included, by default, even though he's not on Lit). But there are also quite a few guys who seem to find it easier to blame 'women' than either look at how they might be contributing to the situation and/or think about how it might be resolved.

But I do think your response was a little over-generalising too.

Shall we both just back down a bit and get a drink?

Click to expand...

That sounds perfect. What are you drinking?

EndOfThis said:

Wife and I do not have a great sex life. We are still young (approx 30) and are not sexless, but it is very infrequent. We average 1x per month, though occasionally it will extend longer than that.

Has always been this way (except in the really early days of dating, though even then it wasn't a lot.

Wife was raised to feel uncomfortable about her sexuality and family did not openly discuss sex or sex health. She also had a bad first experience with sex and her first sex partner at a fairly young age.

We have very different libidos, which is the first challenge. Then we struggle with who should initiate. I have become very afraid to initiate because of being turned down so many times over the years. It's painful. She doesn't feel comfortable or confident initiating even when she is in the mood. I also don't want to feel like I am "forcing" her or "pressuring" into it. She the result is we go weeks and months with no intimate contact.

There are times this puts a real strain on our relationship. I have offered to get us a sex therapist. She declined. I have bought us books. She hasn't read them, though seemed appreciative. I make sure I am contributing the household. I do my fair share.

She is my best friend and I love her. But there are days I feel hopeless and wish she were also my lover.

Click to expand...

So sad to read.

The final sentence is exactly what I said to a friend when discussing this topic earlier in the week

EndOfThis said:

we struggle with who should initiate. I have become very afraid to initiate because of being turned down so many times over the years.

Click to expand...

As someone who walked on the same eggshells for many years, the best thing that we ever did was to break that cycle. Someone has to take responsibility for creating opportunities to have sex, because a rudderless sex life is going nowhere fast.

Having weathered that particular storm, I completely understand the cycle of hope and rejection leading to a timid approach to sex. In my opinion (humble or not), it perpetuates the situation. Without opportunities or initiative, sex will never happen and it doesn't magically get better. To put a fine point on the matter, someone must be in charge of your sex life.

As the spouse with the higher libido (and perhaps even male/female sexual role expectations) that role fell to me. I didn't want duty sex and the thought of "forcing" my wife to have sex when she didn't want to was repulsive. That didn't change the fact that not having sex was bad for our marriage. We were not in immediate danger of splitting up over the issue because we still loved and respected each other, but the fact of the matter is that a healthy marriage is healthy only when all of its parts are healthy.

Once we were able to agree that we both wanted a healthy marriage that met each of our individual needs, we were finally able to deal with the elephant in the room. Namely, I wanted sex and she didn't seem to. For us, it was important to understand that it wasn't that she didn't want sex. She just didn't feel the biological imperative to have it. She very much wanted a happy marriage for both of us, and knew that sex was a part of that. She knew that sex feels good. She knew that sex brought us closer together. In short, she wanted sex. We just had to work together to overcome biology.

Reaching that understand and coming to a meeting of the minds was hard work, but it was crucial because knowing that she wanted a healthy marriage, and by extension a healthy sex life, is what enabled us to break down those bad habits that we both had learned. I had learned to walk on eggshells and she had learned how to avoid awkward moments. We both had to learn to rethink sex from the bottom up (no pun intended).

What worked for us was that we literally had to come to an agreement that I am always free to initiate, and she will never outright refuse (without a reason other than "I'm not feeling it right at the moment."). We both try to create opportunities for sex, and we both have to realize and accept that the opportunity may not lead to sweaty sheets.

We learned that often times being together with the means, motive, and opportunity led to her becoming aroused and enjoying sex. For that to happen she had to feel comfortable with the possibility that it might not because pressure is not sexy. I had to reassure her (and mean it) that if she didn't get aroused then I would actually be okay with it. No sulking, even inside with a smile on my face. We both had to accept that not getting aroused was not a failure. It just meant lovingly accepting that it wasn't going to happen. From there, sometimes she would help me have one sided sex and sometimes I would just take care of myself. Sometimes a little lube would let her enjoy the intimacy of sex even if arousal didn't happen.

Gradually, sex became more frequent than once every two or three months. Being able to relax and be the moment with me, without pressure or expectation allowed her to relax and enjoy being together. It brought sexual intimacy back to our marriage, and gradually she became much more easily aroused. When it isn't in the cards we just enjoy being together, including the closeness of skin on skin contact even if things fizzle or end up being one sided.

For my part, I had to realize that the fact that she would never refuse put the onus on me to at least be aware of how stressful her day has been (etc) and not expect sex when it's unreasonable to expect sex. I can't initiate at 11pm and expect her to be anything but tired. I have to create the opportunity for sex, including everything that has been said here about helping out around the house. Not because I'm trading work for sex, but because she needs to feel that I am present in our marriage and am being a part of it.

Your marriage is not my marriage and you may have different perspectives on marriage and sex than we do. My suggestion is to stop walking on eggshells and stop thinking about sex in terms of who initiates. Stop thinking in terms of libido and only initiating sex when "she's in the mood". Start talking to your wife about the importance of a healthy sex life. Start creating opportunities for sex, and understand that opportunity might not always lead to sex.

Constantly worrying about rejection is unhealthy for you. Your unhappiness is unhealthy for your marriage, which means it's unhealthy for her. If she understands that, then you can work together to find an approach to sex that works for both of you even if it's not your fantasy sex life.

All that I can say is that it has worked for us.

The death spiral

Lets turn the discussion for a moment to what I call the "death spiral", perhaps more accurately thought of as a self-perpetuating series of behaviors.

One of the things that caused problems for us was that my wife found my learned approach to sex to be off-putting. I have never been a "Me Tarzan. You Jane. Tarzan take Jane now." kind of guy. My approach to seducing her has always been a combination of romantic and respectful. I was raised to respect women, and that respect carried over into the bedroom.

Early in our relationship I assumed that my wife (girlfriend, if we go back far enough) wanted to have sex with me and acted accordingly. Most of the time there was the dating romance and seduction, but sometimes I just assumed that she wanted sex and would start with the kisses, fondling, and devour her without much more than a "how do you do." She never complained, and always enjoyed it. The relationship was new, sex was a lot of fun, and it's probably safe to say that she found my attitude and behavior attractive.

Along came the gradual decline of sex in our marriage and the long dry spells. A developed a 'learned behavior" from being rejected. I would wait until I thought that she might be receptive to sex, and then timidly confirm it before I would initiate. I think that this adopted / learned behavior contributed to the problem as much as her low libido did. I think that she found it unattractive and off-putting, although I never asked outright.

Now that I have the "green light" to approach her for sex any time (provided I graciously accept defeat if it doesn't happen), I have noticed a few things. My wife seems to respond much better to a more aggressive approach to sex. Romance is fun and seduction is rewarding for both of us, but the times when I am more like a hungry lion than a patient lover seem to lead to faster arousal and an eager response from her. I think that my unattractive "lets test the water" approach to avoiding rejection was unattractive and sabotaged my chances, locking us into the death spiral.

It was ingrained in me at an early age to treat women with respect, never to hit, etc etc but I think that if I could bring myself to be more aggressive and even a little rougher occasionally she would leave a puddle on the bed. I don't mean force myself on her, or abuse her, but I am slowly realizing that a little obvious lustful desire for her and refusal to take no for an answer goes a log way. A respectful "I want you, and you will ..." It's difficult to explain, and I'm still learning things after 23 years of marriage.

Anyway, the point is that I think that the way that I responded to the crisis helped perpetuate it because it was unattractive to her. I don't mean that in a bad way, or mean to imply anything negative about her.

Thoughts?

pplwatching said:

Lets turn the discussion for a moment to what I call the "death spiral", perhaps more accurately thought of as a self-perpetuating series of behaviors.

One of the things that caused problems for us was that my wife found my learned approach to sex to be off-putting. I have never been a "Me Tarzan. You Jane. Tarzan take Jane now." kind of guy. My approach to seducing her has always been a combination of romantic and respectful. I was raised to respect women, and that respect carried over into the bedroom.

Early in our relationship I assumed that my wife (girlfriend, if we go back far enough) wanted to have sex with me and acted accordingly. Most of the time there was the dating romance and seduction, but sometimes I just assumed that she wanted sex and would start with the kisses, fondling, and devour her without much more than a "how do you do." She never complained, and always enjoyed it. The relationship was new, sex was a lot of fun, and it's probably safe to say that she found my attitude and behavior attractive.

Along came the gradual decline of sex in our marriage and the long dry spells. A developed a 'learned behavior" from being rejected. I would wait until I thought that she might be receptive to sex, and then timidly confirm it before I would initiate. I think that this adopted / learned behavior contributed to the problem as much as her low libido did. I think that she found it unattractive and off-putting, although I never asked outright.

Now that I have the "green light" to approach her for sex any time (provided I graciously accept defeat if it doesn't happen), I have noticed a few things. My wife seems to respond much better to a more aggressive approach to sex. Romance is fun and seduction is rewarding for both of us, but the times when I am more like a hungry lion than a patient lover seem to lead to faster arousal and an eager response from her. I think that my unattractive "lets test the water" approach to avoiding rejection was unattractive and sabotaged my chances, locking us into the death spiral.

It was ingrained in me at an early age to treat women with respect, never to hit, etc etc but I think that if I could bring myself to be more aggressive and even a little rougher occasionally she would leave a puddle on the bed. I don't mean force myself on her, or abuse her, but I am slowly realizing that a little obvious lustful desire for her and refusal to take no for an answer goes a log way. A respectful "I want you, and you will ..." It's difficult to explain, and I'm still learning things after 23 years of marriage.

Anyway, the point is that I think that the way that I responded to the crisis helped perpetuate it because it was unattractive to her. I don't mean that in a bad way, or mean to imply anything negative about her.

Thoughts?

Click to expand...

Wow, you make some good points here. And I wonder if I am probably in the same boat with my woman? I find it hard to believe that initiating with a respectful "you will do this no matter what" is going to work. I do understand how the timid, "Do you want to have sex Honey?" question comes off to some ladies as very off putting and maybe even nauseating. At the same time, as mentioned above most men are tired of or effected by continual rejection by our mates. We would like to have more incite so we can ask when she is ready or do things to get her ready in affirmation of our love.

I do understand it in this way. Example: I am not interested in going to play with my woman because it is way too touchy feely. But she says we are going anyway and to my surprise I actually like it a lot. Maybe the same can be true for bedroom play. It takes someone to be adamant and insist respectfully and once you start making love, both of you realize how much you were missing. The bottom line is someone has to initiate and the other part is how. Each woman and couple is different.

Some things to think about:

Why can some women go wild on a Cruise ship and act the shy woman at home? Or have an affair with a stranger? I know a woman who told me she had a threesome with two guys on a Cruise. She was able to do it because she was never going to see those guys again. There was no resentment of them for not mowing the lawn, not doing their share of the housework, not helping out against inlaws, etc etc. They are just some guys on a boat. And this is not just a woman thing, men do it too. It can be easy to let go in the bedroom when you are with a stranger.

When we walk into the bedroom it is not easy to clear our minds of resentment, anger, sadness, and other emotions that can negatively effect love making. If you are in a long term relationship, you quickly realize how imperfect you both are. I forgive myself and my partner, try to become better and more understanding so we can let things go. It would be nice if we could all walk through a mind clearing machine before entering the bedroom.

ES

eroticspank said:

It would be nice if we could all walk through a mind clearing machine before entering the bedroom.

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Amen, brother. At the same time sex is a mind clearer and de-stressor. It is a lot easier to "feel in love", forgive, and forget after an intimate encounter where much pleasure is given and received. It's one of the reasons sex is so important IMHO.

Damn chickens and eggs (carts and horses).