Gunplay

KoPilot said:

I studied one thing for 8+ years, got the first out-of-state degree out of my whole family for it, should have been on food stamps while I was there but didn't think to apply, spent the night in Penn Station because I locked myself out of my apartment, experienced some capital-m Mysteries, cavorted with ghosts, seen UFOs, and now I'm going to be moving to a different country. Oh, and I've got my dream job right now--both of them.

Gun play almost sounds campy to me compared to what I've felt and seen.

Hurr, I'm part of an elite group too.

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ooh, snark - always elevating discussions. Can I play too?

Netzach said:

"I'll answer your question though. Why am I 'proud'? I guess because both he and I choose to push limits most people won't... and therefore get to go places most people don't get to go. I don't mean that I'm better than anyone because we take more risks than most do. That'd be as asinine as bragging that you're better than others because you're the most super super safest player out there and never take any risks. It's not about "better". Maybe it's about being part of a really small group of people who do really dangerous things. Like wingwalking or walking a tightrope over the grand canyon. Sure, some people say "that's fucking stupid", but millions tune in to watch in awe, regardless. Actually, walking on a tightrope is a nice metaphor for gunplay. The guy who walked the tightrope across the grand canyon - I'm sure you can imagine the fear he felt during it... but can you imagine the adrenaline... the bliss he felt halfway through, looking around him and seeing nothing but open sky and air and incredible views, feeling the wind all around him, threatening to knock him off the rope? Most people will never feel anything remotely like that in their lives. Oh, they'll tell themselves they did, when they went on that rollercoaster or took those flying lessons or rode that horse down a steep trail. But to be actually on that tightrope where one wrong move could send you tumbling? Most people will never do it."

I'm not going to intimate that the rest of you will never REALLY LIVE except that I'm totally going to intimate it. And then say I didn't.

Anyway, I think dicking around with your lover and gun is like the roller coaster version of having one in your face with a stranger and ambiguous intent.

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I was trying to explain why I like it. You can take it offensively or not Netzach, but I think I'm done trying hard to be civil and respectful to you while you continue to have at me. And since I have no desire to be DISrespectful to you, maybe we should agree to disagree, or at least maybe I should stop answering your replies, since my honest attempts to explain things just seem to make you angry.

Pachet said:

ooh, snark - always elevating discussions. Can I play too?

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What part of that was snark, exactly?

I've done stuff not many people have, therefore I'm part of a small demographic.

It was a counter to your implied claim that you're not really living unless you're putting your life at risk. Thing is, I've been there. Gotten in the car with drunk drivers, gone swimming on a moonless night and getting caught in a high-tide riptide on an empty beach, use toxic materials without proper protection. Not even remotely the most intense or life-affirming moments I've had.

KoPilot said:

What part of that was snark, exactly?

I've done stuff not many people have, therefore I'm part of a small demographic.

It was a counter to your implied claim that you're not really living unless you're putting your life at risk. Thing is, I've been there. Gotten in the car with drunk drivers, gone swimming on a moonless night and getting caught in a high-tide riptide on an empty beach, use toxic materials without proper protection. Not even remotely the most intense or life-affirming moments I've had.

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It's possible I worded what I said poorly. I mean no offense, though. If I knew it was going to make people feel like I was looking down on them for not taking risks, I wouldn't have put it the way I did. Sometimes even talking about it kind of takes me there a little bit, and that post was the result. I shall try to reword. For me, taking SOME risks SOMETIMES makes me feel alive. Like I said above, I don't look for risk most of the time, sometimes I'm pretty conservative with risk. Going too fast on the freeway makes me scared, & not in a good way... But there are a few areas where I'm the opposite. I enjoy the feeling that :::in my view:::, I'm getting to experience something that not many people do... but granted, most people don't WANT to feel that level of fear and take that level of risk. The fact that I do makes me no better than them. I don't look down at ppl who take less risks than me - I mean that would include most people, honestly, since most people will never do what I do.

About what I do - it works for me. Everytime I get to do it, I feel lucky to have had the opportunity, and grateful to the person willing to go there with me.

As for the things you said =getting caught in riptide - not being intense or life affirming - why would they be? Being in an actual dangerous situation is a lot different than being in a dangerous bdsm situation. I've been in dangerous situations IRL too, and I don't count them as life affirming either, although they were pretty intense. But I prefer the bdsm version

Pachet said:

Also, of the small amount of people I know who do loaded gunplay (met two more recently), every single one of them is law enforcement or military.

.

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Just wanted to underline this. Your protectors are kinkier than you know.

Pachet said:

Just wanted to underline this. Your protectors are kinkier than you know.

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Oh good. They're literally getting off on beating and murdering people for no reason then.

KoPilot said:

Oh good. They're literally getting off on beating and murdering people for no reason then.

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Yes KoPilot, thats exactly it. You get a gold star.

Pachet said:

Also, of the small amount of people I know who do loaded gunplay (met two more recently), every single one of them is law enforcement or military.

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Pachet said:

Just wanted to underline this. Your protectors are kinkier than you know.

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Actually, this makes me significantly less trustful of my "protectors". It tells me they have exceedingly bad judgement--not a quality I want to see in a law enforcement officer or member of the military.

ETA: No, thinking about this, it's not merely my trust that has been altered by this statement. This makes me angry. Really angry. There are people sitting in prison for the "horrific" crime of smoking a joint and yet you tell me there are law enforcement officers out there who get their rocks off by pressing a loaded weapon to the head of another person and we're supposed to think that's cool? Consent or no consent on behalf of their partner, this is shameful. Trust and respect lost.

Keroin said:

Actually, this makes me significantly less trustful of my "protectors". It tells me they have exceedingly bad judgement--not a quality I want to see in a law enforcement officer or member of the military.

ETA: No, thinking about this, it's not merely my trust that has been altered by this statement. This makes me angry. Really angry. There are people sitting in prison for the "horrific" crime of smoking a joint and yet you tell me there are law enforcement officers out there who get their rocks off by pressing a loaded weapon to the head of another person and we're supposed to think that's cool? Consent or no consent on behalf of their partner, this is shameful. Trust and respect lost.

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Would you feel the same if we were playing with hanging/choking to unconciousness? Or is it the use of a metal object that takes it from acceptable risk to egregious risk?

Pachet said:

Would you feel the same if we were playing with hanging/choking to unconciousness? Or is it the use of a metal object that takes it from acceptable risk to egregious risk?

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It is not a "metal object", it is a loaded weapon. Specifically, it is a loaded weapon that these individuals have been trained and instructed to never point at anyone they do not intend to harm or kill--for very sound reasons. An armed individual in a position of authority who cannot comprehend and obey such a logical rule is not someone I trust or respect, particularly when there are individuals who have gone to jail for breaking far less serious rules.

Also, by engaging in such an activity, these people demonstrate blatant disrespect for the very institutions they have sworn to serve.

Pachet said:

Yes KoPilot, thats exactly it. You get a gold star.

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No, you get a gold star for giving me yet another reason to have nothing but distrust and loathing for the state of ""law"" enforcement in this country, and nothing but boiling rage at the state of our military industrial complex that does nothing but benefit from civilian casualties.

Do you seriously not understand that police brutality and militarization of police is a thing? That people are actually legitimately bullied, harassed, assaulted, and murdered by cops for no fucking reason?

Jesus H Christ.

No, you've done absolutely nothing to make me sleep better at night. You make me wish that I'd gone and protested with occupy when I was in NYC at the very least.

Bash back.

double tap

KoPilot said:

No, you get a gold star for giving me yet another reason to have nothing but distrust and loathing for the state of ""law"" enforcement in this country, and nothing but boiling rage at the state of our military industrial complex that does nothing but benefit from civilian casualties.

Do you seriously not understand that police brutality and militarization of police is a thing? That people are actually legitimately bullied, harassed, assaulted, and murdered by cops for no fucking reason?

Jesus H Christ.

No, you've done absolutely nothing to make me sleep better at night. You make me wish that I'd gone and protested with occupy when I was in NYC at the very least.

Bash back.

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Well this explains a lot.

I am aware police brutality "is a thing". Yes, there are bad cops, just like there are bad firemen, bad neurosurgeons and bad mimes. But 95% of cops are good people who genuinely want to help others. Unfortunately the 5% who aren't tend to make headlines. That's no reason to denigrate the rest of them.

I'm curious, when someone you care about calls you in the middle of the night and says they hear a noise downstairs and think someone's breaking in, (and you're too far away to help), what will you tell them? "Oh hang tight, it's probably nothing, but don't call the brutal, militarized police!"

No. You'll tell them to dial 911 NOW if you have any sense. And then some cop who you think is nothing but a thug will come save your loved one. Not that I honestly think you'd hop in your car even if you WERE close enough.

Anyway... how old are you, KoPilot? Cos you act like a kid who was just told there's no Santa Claus.

Btw, you missed the point of my previous question. The point is not the ITEM being used to risk someone's life, the point is that one's life is being risked. So he can hang me and he's just an extreme kinkster, even though one wrong move and I'm dead or paralyzed - but use a gun where one wrong move and I'm dead or paralyzed, and it's suddenly wrong? There is no logic there. If the potential outcome is the same, then both carry the same amount of risk - the only difference is the means.

KoPilot said:

No, you get a gold star for giving me yet another reason to have nothing but distrust and loathing for the state of ""law"" enforcement in this country, and nothing but boiling rage at the state of our military industrial complex that does nothing but benefit from civilian casualties.

Do you seriously not understand that police brutality and militarization of police is a thing? That people are actually legitimately bullied, harassed, assaulted, and murdered by cops for no fucking reason?

Jesus H Christ.

No, you've done absolutely nothing to make me sleep better at night. You make me wish that I'd gone and protested with occupy when I was in NYC at the very least.

Bash back.

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Well- I don't engage in Gunplay, and do .mil and LE at various times. I don't have much use for your kind either. I guess we are even.

Pachet said:

Well this explains a lot.

I am aware police brutality "is a thing". Yes, there are bad cops, just like there are bad firemen, bad neurosurgeons and bad mimes. But 95% of cops are good people who genuinely want to help others. Unfortunately the 5% who aren't tend to make headlines. That's no reason to denigrate the rest of them.

I'm curious, when someone you care about calls you in the middle of the night and says they hear a noise downstairs and think someone's breaking in, (and you're too far away to help), what will you tell them? "Oh hang tight, it's probably nothing, but don't call the brutal, militarized police!"

No. You'll tell them to dial 911 NOW if you have any sense. And then some cop who you think is nothing but a thug will come save your loved one. Not that I honestly think you'd hop in your car even if you WERE close enough.

Anyway... how old are you, KoPilot? Cos you act like a kid who was just told there's no Santa Claus.

Btw, you missed the point of my previous question. The point is not the ITEM being used to risk someone's life, the point is that one's life is being risked. So he can hang me and he's just an extreme kinkster, even though one wrong move and I'm dead or paralyzed - but use a gun where one wrong move and I'm dead or paralyzed, and it's suddenly wrong? There is no logic there. If the potential outcome is the same, then both carry the same amount of risk - the only difference is the means.

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I can call the police because I'm white and don't live in poverty. My neighbors don't have that advantage. And all that goes out the window the minute I might want to wear a bandanna over my face and, say, march with some people about immigration rights anyways. Or stand outside of a bank with a sign. Or get raped and try to report it.

I have an uncle who was a cop and a security guard in LA. He met some big names working at the prison. I hear he was an asshole before he retired. Love the uncle, not the cop.

I'm not the kid here-- you're the one pretending that you can make personal choices in a vacuum. You're the one that thinks that it'll ease our consciousnesses to say that most people who get a sexual thrill from pointing guns at others are those I'm supposed to trust with my life, no questions asked.

The vast majority of police violence doesn't get reported on at all, sorry not sorry. You have to dig for it, and most of them get off like Lindsey Lohan on a drug charge. Besides-- 5% of cops and military whose abuse of power results in deaths and beatings is still 5% too many. Stop making excuses.

What I'm really ashamed of is the fact that you had to point it out so plainly for me to realize what made me uncomfortable with this thread since the beginning.

I know there are more than six bad apples out there. Puh leeze. It must be nice to have your head THAT far in the sand.

But I'm also comforted in knowing that the military and LE people *I* know would freak the fuck out at the OP more than anything I've said.

Perverts are so vain sometimes. Everything looks like YOUR kink.

Did you know there are HORDES of marines who want to be made into polished middle aged women like you see reading the news in nice skirt suits and lavender panties underneath? That's MY mileage so, they're WAY into that.

zathras52003 said:

Well- I don't engage in Gunplay, and do .mil and LE at various times. I don't have much use for your kind either. I guess we are even.

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What's our kind? The people who sign the checks and expect accountability when a round is fired? Fuck us in the ear.

Netzach said:

I know there are more than six bad apples out there. Puh leeze. It must be nice to have your head THAT far in the sand.

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I'm not even sure what point you're trying to wrangle with that one, but if you're referring to the Army Ranger, the Marine, and the police officers I know who do gunplay, you can shut your fucking trap, netzach. I don't care what you say about me, but I will defend them, because they're amazing people who risk their lives everyday to help others. You know nothing about them as people. Behaviour in private in the bedroom is different than behaviour in public, on the job, or at a range.

I guess I take back the "I don't want to disrespect you" thing I said, huh? Oh well. Any respect I had for you is gone.

But I'm also comforted in knowing that the military and LE people *I* know would freak the fuck out at the OP more than anything I've said.

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And I take comfort in the fact that were you to meet one of my gunplaying LEO/military, or see them on the job you'd think nothing but "wow, he's great at what he does", and go home and think to yourself "I'm so glad I met another stand up Marine and not one of those gunplayer Marines Pachet was talking about. " All the while having no fucking idea that the night before he had his loaded 229 at his lover's head during sex.

Perverts are so vain sometimes. Everything looks like YOUR kink.

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And so superior and condescending sometimes too, right? Their kink is so much better, safer, and more acceptable than anyone else's.

Did you know there are HORDES of marines who want to be made into polished middle aged women like you see reading the news in nice skirt suits and lavender panties underneath? That's MY mileage so, they're WAY into that.

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That's great for them, honestly. More power to them. Or less, if that's their thing.

Netzach said:

What's our kind? The people who sign the checks and expect accountability when a round is fired? Fuck us in the ear.

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Not to put words in his mouth, as I'm sure he can speak for himself, but maybe he means the kind who assume everyone with a uniform and a gun is just itching to beat someone up, as KoPilot insinuated.

Wow, recoil (gun pun intended) Harsh thread.

Pachet said:

I'm not even sure what point you're trying to wrangle with that one, but if you're referring to the Army Ranger, the Marine, and the police officers I know who do gunplay, you can shut your fucking trap, netzach. I don't care what you say about me, but I will defend them, because they're amazing people who risk their lives everyday to help others. You know nothing about them as people. Behaviour in private in the bedroom is different than behaviour in public, on the job, or at a range.

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No shit sherlock. I'm not talking about your posse of six perverts I'm talking about the motherfuckers who bring us another Sean Bell type scenario on a weekly basis. They're not THAT rare.

Your friends are possibly upright and terrific, possibly not, whatever. You have no business telling other people what their response to LE *ought* to be.

I do wonder how attached to the office a guy would be to risk it all to get off, but that's his problem. Because I have NO doubt that the chain of command would be even less charitable toward his extracurriculars than I've been if they found out and it got public.

I'm not saying any guy who would do this is evil. I'm saying he's reckless as fuck, if he is at all protective of his reputation and his life as he knows it.

Netzach said:

No shit sherlock. I'm not talking about your posse of six perverts I'm talking about the motherfuckers who bring us another Sean Bell type scenario on a weekly basis. They're not THAT rare.

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Posse of Six Perverts - I kind of like that.

Yes, police brutality exists, it's fucked up, and it happens too much. Even once is too much. I think we can all agree on that.

Your friends are possibly upright and terrific, possibly not, whatever. You have no business telling other people what their response to LE *ought* to be.

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I don't think I told anyone what their response to law enforcement "ought" to be. I just dislike all police being lumped together as "brutal", because it's just not true, and it's not helpful. Call the brutal ones names all you want - I'll join in. But don't smear the good ones with that brush.

I do wonder how attached to the office a guy would be to risk it all to get off, but that's his problem. Because I have NO doubt that the chain of command would be even less charitable toward his extracurriculars than I've been if they found out and it got public.

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You've used those words before talking about gunplay with me - something about "risk your life for an orgasm". I've said it before and I'll say it again - it's about a lot more than that. If that's what play is to you (mainly for orgasm), I honest to Sagan think that's fan-fucking-tastic and completely valid, but for some people it's not just sex. I would not risk my life for just an orgasm - straight up. I get more out of play than the sexual stuff, and I get even more out of gunplay than the sexual stuff. From what I know, it's the same for the people I've played with.

I'm not saying any guy who would do this is evil. I'm saying he's reckless as fuck, if he is at all protective of his reputation and his life as he knows it.

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I understand if that's your viewpoint. All I can tell you is they're not reckless on the street or at the range or anywhere else. The only place their behaviour around guns is somewhat altered is in the bedroom.


These aren't cowboys, loose cannons, ect. I'm not interested in playing with some cowboy cop. I knew a cowboy cop once, unfortunately. (No, he wasn't a gunplay partner or any other kind of partner). He ended up killing an innocent woman during a stakeout gone wrong - shot at the car she was in for no reason. She wasn't even the person being staked out. So when people try to lecture me about police brutality or problems with the police, or the attitude of some police toward people of color, I just think - you have no idea what I've seen, and I mean in person, not on the evening news. But I've also seen in person that most cops are good and some will even literally give you the shirt off their back. I can't see the reactionary "all cops are so fucked up thing" without saying something.

Pachet said:

I understand if that's your viewpoint. All I can tell you is they're not reckless on the street or at the range or anywhere else. The only place their behaviour around guns is somewhat altered is in the bedroom.


These aren't cowboys, loose cannons, ect. I'm not interested in playing with some cowboy cop. I knew a cowboy cop once, unfortunately. (No, he wasn't a gunplay partner or any other kind of partner). He ended up killing an innocent woman during a stakeout gone wrong - shot at the car she was in for no reason. She wasn't even the person being staked out. So when people try to lecture me about police brutality or problems with the police, or the attitude of some police toward people of color, I just think - you have no idea what I've seen, and I mean in person, not on the evening news. But I've also seen in person that most cops are good and some will even literally give you the shirt off their back. I can't see the reactionary "all cops are so fucked up thing" without saying something.

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The problem with that is that when you pick your nose in the privacy of your own home it's easy to slip up and do it in public sooner or later.
That's why things are supposed to be trained until they become so second nature that it actually hurts to go against them, like looking both ways when you cross a street, no leaving a burning candle and no pointing with the dangerous end unless really serious about it.

Pachet said:

I understand if that's your viewpoint. All I can tell you is they're not reckless on the street or at the range or anywhere else. The only place their behaviour around guns is somewhat altered is in the bedroom.

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I'm going to point something out and then I'm likely done with this subject.

Over in the Ageplay thread, you were adamant that people with pedophilia tendencies would probably be drawn to ageplay. When it was suggested that ageplay would be the perfect outlet for those tendencies, since it lets the person fulfill their need with a consenting adult, you argued that they might also be driven to take it further--out into real life, molesting children.

But here you seem to be arguing the opposite.

If people drawn to ageplay might be pedophiles, why can't LE drawn to gunplay be sadists? And if they are, according to the above argument, then what they do in the privacy of their own home might actually drive them to take it further--onto the streets, brutalizing the people they are supposed to protect.

BTW, I don't buy that argument. But I don't think it's fair to apply it to one set of kinksters and not another.

IrisAlthea said:

The problem with that is that when you pick your nose in the privacy of your own home it's easy to slip up and do it in public sooner or later.
That's why things are supposed to be trained until they become so second nature that it actually hurts to go against them, like looking both ways when you cross a street, no leaving a burning candle and no pointing with the dangerous end unless really serious about it.

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I understand what you're saying. Like I've mentioned though, the Marine has told me more than once he has to fight against his training to do gunplay. We're talking about a few hours of play once a month or so vs. years of training and 8-10 hours a day on the job, day in day out. I don't feel like a few hours of play once in a while are going to erase decades of experience and training.