Go Back   Literotica Discussion Board > Main Literotica Forums > Poetry Feedback & Discussion

Reply
 
Thread Tools

Old 05-06-2013, 12:23 PM   #1
Angeline
Poet Chick
 
Angeline's Avatar
 
Angeline is offline
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Dreamland
Posts: 24,224
Bewitched, Bothered and Butters: The Interview

butters has been a member of our poetry community since 2009 (she was known as "chipbutty" until rather recently) and currently has 35 poetry submissions on her page. She also moderated this forum for about a year (correct me if I've got the time wrong Ms. B), so it is safe to say she knows her way around Literotica and poetry.

This interview is an opportunity to explore her poems and ideas. You can ask her whatever questions you like. She has agreed to respond in kind. I'm just going to start the ball rolling, but the rest of you are encouraged to get involved with questions, comments, compliments, critique or really whatever moves you as long as the focus is on butters. Civility is expected and specificity is much desired. Free exchange of ideas and learning is the goal.

To start I have a few general questions and then, a few more specific ones:

butters, how long have you been writing poetry and what got you interested in it?

Here is a poem of yours that I like a lot because it summarizes what I think many poets feel about our own attempts at the genre. It makes us crazy at times (I am totally on board with that notion!). And whether we've earned "laurels" or not, I'm sure we all wonder why poetry? Why me? Can you talk about what moved you to write this? What are its influences? You wrote it a few years back: is there anything now you'd change about it?

Poet
by buttersİ

and should our eyes grow wild upon
this diet of ambrosia and dust;
and should these visions torment us
with howling griefs, outrageous joys the same;
should comfort and distress become
our burn, our greed, our fevered daily bread -
will laurels, earned, be worth the name they say?
or is it, still, a price too high to pay?
__________________
Misterioso

Poems
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-06-2013, 04:03 PM   #2
butters
Harry's Girl
 
butters's Avatar
 
butters is offline
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London UK
Posts: 51,305
*waves*

Hello, Angiebaby x this is likely to prove enlightening for me as I don't really know what others think about my writes - often others like stuff I'm less keen on, and don't enjoy those I feel are my better efforts, or favourites. Any additional insight is valuable. In deference to this bein' an interview and stuff, I'm employing the shift key - makes longer replies easier to read

Anyways, I put on my big girl pants and that renders me bullet-proof so let us begin

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angeline View Post
butters, how long have you been writing poetry and what got you interested in it?
First wrote a small poem back when I was somewhere between 8 and 10 - it was a school thing, and got chosen as one of many from several schools to be put into an anthology. It was about washing on a line on a windy day, and all I really remember about it was it used a lot of sound.

Poetry wasn't that big a thing for me, not something I was especially interested in - I was too busy reading all manner of stuff, and assume I was soaking up the basics of grammar and the flow of language from some of the classics such as Black Beauty, The Hobbit/LOTR, Little Women, Tom Sawyer, Treasure Island, Gulliver's Travels, and the Dickensian adventures. There were a few poetry books, though, and one of these I easily memorised without trying to: they were The Flower Fairies series (Cicely Mary Barker) and The Night Before Christmas (C.C.Moore) - books I'm sure you guys will be familiar with and understand how TNBC would be so easily retained and repeated verbatim.

So, apart from compositions in school (which had to be about specific set topics and so always felt an intellectual exercise rather than a creative thing), it was really all about the reading till I was 14. This is when I was first introduced to Shakespeare. A fabulous English teacher made the bard's words magical, immediate, and very pertinent to a 70's teenager. Then, through school again, I discovered the pleasures of Byron, Keats, Shelley and more.... Still the only writing I was doing remained in the form of essays, but these got me to examine and take apart the anatomy of a piece of writing. I hated that at the time, since I only wanted to read a piece with my reader head on, not have to do a ruddy autopsy on it. However, I believe it stood me in good stead, eventually, giving me some basic insight into the hows and whys of lines/metaphors/specific word-choices.

After that, I began dabbling in poetry in my later teens - wrote some stuff that was utterly cringe-worthy - then stopped around the age of 21, Too busy with work, being married, and so on. And I didn't start writing again till the age of 40.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Angeline View Post
Here is a poem of yours that I like a lot because it summarizes what I think many poets feel about our own attempts at the genre. It makes us crazy at times (I am totally on board with that notion!). And whether we've earned "laurels" or not, I'm sure we all wonder why poetry? Why me? Can you talk about what moved you to write this? What are its influences? You wrote it a few years back: is there anything now you'd change about it?

Poet
by buttersİ

and should our eyes grow wild upon
this diet of ambrosia and dust;
and should these visions torment us
with howling griefs, outrageous joys the same;
should comfort and distress become
our burn, our greed, our fevered daily bread -
will laurels, earned, be worth the name they say?
or is it, still, a price too high to pay?
I'm glad this piece engaged you as a reader, Angeline; it was really aimed at any one of us out here beyond the screens who attempt to write, and to try and put what I believe most of us question about the whole 'thing' of being called/living the life of 'A Poet' into some framework. Of course that's all in hindsight - a sort of understanding of what I was doing after the actual process of creating. And I stand by that: I believe we can do the creative part - without consciously pre-considering the audience/technical aspects/the aims of the piece . . . only when we look back can we see 'oh yeah, I did that, and tied it into this, and used that rhythm/rhyme deliberately'. Of course, that's when we all need to get our editing heads on and decide if the decisions we arrived at in the creative phase best suit the presentation of our poems for the final cut.

The spark that cause me to write this was the phrase 'and should our eyes grow wild upon'. I don't even know where that came from, but it no doubt exists somewhere in some poem by one of the Romantics and lurked for many a year. The nature of the phrase, its courtly, romantic-poet feel, its iambic stepping, was what then set the tone for the rest of the lines. You could say it was organic, if that doesn't sound too twattish. I got some negative feedback over this for using 'and' to begin that first line; I see why this should be, and yet still feel attached to it (even now ), since (for me) it lends more authenticity of RoPo flavour to a piece I felt borrowed so very heavily from that school. The title was, again, a look back at days when a poet was A Poet, the title being a 'title' as it were, and yet I still wanted it to apply to us all writing poetry today. Of course, what I want to convey and what I manage to aren't always the same thing. I hope to keep learning how to improve there.

The changes I've made to this particular piece never made it as far as editing/re-subbing that original, but they did get made and it appears in the altered version on my website. I have yourself to thank for critique that suggested a better layout: creating couplets would slow the reader down enough to allow the balancing of the phrases to be appreciated more. Part of me still likes the original (that'll be the ego-part, I'm guessing ) where it's all set out in the one compact block, but all the rest of me likes how the couplets make it work. If I didn't listen to what you had to say about stuff like this I'd be an idiot.

__________________
poetry submissions


What strange machinery lies between her ears
HarryHill


'tender hearted...
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-06-2013, 05:32 PM   #3
greenmountaineer
Literotica Guru
 
greenmountaineer is offline
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 923
First a compliment. Your comments always have been positive and encouraging before you made suggestions for improvement and, in that case, you always provided a level of detail and something for the poet to think about.

Here's one of yours I particularly like among many well crafted poems:


in a physical world

i am stranger than light
this quintessential I
lighter than air
and trapped within these fleshly confines
my
parameters of skin

i feel it
alive
without form
or mass

animating this incredible vehicle
this prison of blood, and bone
this gift of nerve and sinew

i hum like a pylon
the energy crackling
sometimes leaping
across the gaps in bursts of static blue
to connect with the power
of another


Care to share your thoughts about what prompted this delightful poem?

I understand the absence of the traditional commas at the line breaks. I am a bit confused by the presence of one in "this prison of blood, and bone" (powerful image BTW) and am curious to know your thinking about the placement of it there.
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-06-2013, 09:13 PM   #4
Angeline
Poet Chick
 
Angeline's Avatar
 
Angeline is offline
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Dreamland
Posts: 24,224
I'm glad GM raised the point about your feedback, Butters. You are one of a handful here whose feedback/critique is typically specific and detailed. I've always appreciated that about you because I know it's an investment of reading, thinking and writing. And it's always good to know how someone else sees one's writing.

What do you consider "good" critique? What do you look for (or find) in a poem that makes you want to critique it and how do you go about it? Do you have specific things your look for? Do you have a plan or order to guide your thinking when you are critiquing a poem?

Any advice or recommendations would be helpful. (Sorry for sounding like Roseanne Rosannadanna! )
__________________
Misterioso

Poems
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-07-2013, 01:44 PM   #5
butters
Harry's Girl
 
butters's Avatar
 
butters is offline
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London UK
Posts: 51,305
Quote:
Originally Posted by greenmountaineer View Post
First a compliment. Your comments always have been positive and encouraging before you made suggestions for improvement and, in that case, you always provided a level of detail and something for the poet to think about.
Thanks, gm I have been awol too much lately, and offer apologies to others here who aren't nearly so hit and miss with their time and thoughts. Thanks for coming to this thread!

Quote:
Originally Posted by greenmountaineer View Post
Here's one of yours I particularly like among many well crafted poems:


in a physical world

i am stranger than light
this quintessential I
lighter than air
and trapped within these fleshly confines
my
parameters of skin

i feel it
alive
without form
or mass

animating this incredible vehicle
this prison of blood, and bone
this gift of nerve and sinew

i hum like a pylon
the energy crackling
sometimes leaping
across the gaps in bursts of static blue
to connect with the power
of another


Care to share your thoughts about what prompted this delightful poem?

I understand the absence of the traditional commas at the line breaks. I am a bit confused by the presence of one in "this prison of blood, and bone" (powerful image BTW) and am curious to know your thinking about the placement of it there.
This illustrates what I was saying earlier about how some people tend to like ones I'm less keen on: with this example, the idea of the poem attracts me more than its actual execution, and I feel there's a clumsiness in those last lines that, perhaps now, I might have avoided. Having said that, if you find it to your liking then maybe it's a failure of my own judgement. Drat Whatever, I'm still happy you liked it!

The prompt for this was, yet again, a single phrase: in this case it was i am stranger than light. Where it came from I have no idea, but there it was, sitting in the front of my thoughts and a poem of sorts spread out from it - kind of how a drip hitting water spreads a ring that moves outwards, so not a linear event, more . . . I don't know the right word to use here! Once the phrase had asserted itself, the only way to write it seemed to be using the electrical/spiritual/what-makes-a-person-who they-are thing, housed by the body - that incredible vehicle that contains us (for the most part). The electrical aspect is, to me, quite important - even if it's not truly electricity that's being addressed. Important because I get a shit load of static electricity shocks, can make a radio or tv go screwy losing its signal, and if I wear too much synthetics it's like firework night when I strip off in the dark

I don't believe we always remain contained within the flesh; it's just a matter of learning the trick (or not forgetting it) - and it's something I do all the time in dreams, slip out of the body. Sometimes this 'quintessential I' moves unembraced by other form, other times it slips easily into another house of flesh or stone or wood. There's not much in the way of choice, it just happens. I couldn't say for sure, but perhaps this sometimes helps me see things from the point of view of others; sometimes I'm stuck fast in the 'fleshly confines'. The body, though, couldn't be forgotten for the fabulous construction it is - messy, but fabulous

Yeah, that comma: the sole reason was to create a small break, for added stress when speaking it. If I'd opted for another line-break, it would have (to my thinking) chopped the lines too roughly, where it was one thought but a sort of two-part thought. I tried it without the comma, and just didn't feel it read right. Perhaps I need to learn to allow the reader greater input and interpretation over how they read it and not resort to such manipulative stage-directions. I can see how it being the sole comma in the piece could look odd, and the sort of thing that might be thrown in just for effect. I'd just like to clarify it wasn't thrown, just put down very carefully. It'd be very interesting to me to know if everyone else feels that comma's superfluous. I could maybe learn from that.

Thanks for your questions, gm, and I hope the answers didn't rattle on too long.
__________________
poetry submissions


What strange machinery lies between her ears
HarryHill


'tender hearted...
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-07-2013, 03:09 PM   #6
butters
Harry's Girl
 
butters's Avatar
 
butters is offline
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London UK
Posts: 51,305
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angeline View Post
I'm glad GM raised the point about your feedback, Butters. You are one of a handful here whose feedback/critique is typically specific and detailed. I've always appreciated that about you because I know it's an investment of reading, thinking and writing. And it's always good to know how someone else sees one's writing.

What do you consider "good" critique? What do you look for (or find) in a poem that makes you want to critique it and how do you go about it? Do you have specific things your look for? Do you have a plan or order to guide your thinking when you are critiquing a poem?

Any advice or recommendations would be helpful. (Sorry for sounding like Roseanne Rosannadanna! )
Wow, now I feel even guiltier about not giving as much as I used to And thankyou, again. You'll be only too aware that sometimes you can give hours of your time to the whole process and barely get a grunt in return It is, however, a valuable learning tool in its own right, getting us to look at the whole process of poetry and try to figure out ways to do things better. It shines a spotlight that can, in turn, be focused on our own writing in order to improve it.

Good critique . . . for me, it's about the poem and not the critter, and tailoring (as best as one can) the nature of the crit to whereabouts on the poetry path the author stands - and that includes me understanding there are many here further along the path than I am and that sometimes means I have little to offer other than purple praise . Honesty is the most vital component, closely followed by balance - letting the author know what I like and why as well as the things I don't, kindness, no schmoozing, and offering suggestions for a different way that might help improve a poem. It's important for me that the author understands that all I have are my opinions and that whatever I suggest isn't intended as being judgemental about their write but my own version of 'what if you try it this way? how does that suit you?' A pet hate of mine are the critters out there to make themselves look edgy, smart, witty and urbane by slashing and burning the less experienced writers and who then expect the crittee to kiss their shiny arses for the privilege. NO ONE need critique like that. The best part is that some of these people (and I'm not referring to anyone on Lit, I might add) have some talent but have plenty of room for improvement in their own writing!

I don't really begin reading a poem specifically looking for areas to crit unless I've been specifically asked to do just that; I like to read a poem first of all with my 'reader' head on. During the course of reading the piece, I will form impressions - such as how much the author's making me visualise the piece, how musical it sounds, its fluidity, its rhythm. Anything like typos almost ALWAYS jar me out of the experience, and clunky/inaccurate word-choices break the spell for me, too. If the poem leaves me with something to say and I've time to say it, then I'll do so. A really bad piece might spark suggestions, but I get a feel for the writer who might be open to them - chances are I'm wrong, it's happened before. If I think I have something to offer, and they might listen, or others reading the piece and my post might get something from it, then I'll say it. If a piece isn't good but has places that show the author has a feeling for poetry, I'll see if I can suggest stuff. If a piece is lovely, but has me tripping up my tongue or my thoughts in places, I'll let them know that happens. Sometimes it's a case of me needing to re-read it to get a better feel for its flow, a better understanding of its meaning. I just want to add here that when making suggestions for change it's so important to do it in the voice of the poem - moreso the poem than the author, even. NEVER try to rewrite someone else's poem's voice in your own. Get a feel for the individual voice you are hearing and offer your thoughts in the same accent!

So the only 'plan' I have is to then put on with my 'think rather than feel' head, identify what I like and why, look more closely for allusions, metaphors and references, and see where I might make suggestions/explain about how or why changes in certain places might smooth those snags or create a tension where tension appears to be lacking. If I can see how one word might be changed for something that'll work better (imo), I'll let them know. It's important for the person receiving feedback to understand why suggested changes might help, not just be told to make them. And it has to feel right to them, as creator of the piece, or they'll lose that connection with it. For me, the very best stuff I get to read renders the words invisible - if that makes any sense: as I'm reading, what I am seeing isn't the words - the imagery is what I'm seeing and it's the placement of specific words, their musicality, their rhythmic quality, that allows this to happen. It's like the words become a living moment, an experience. When this happens, I tend to be rendered speechless with admiration - only finding my tongue to offer superlatives and smushy stuff.

Best advice I can offer is to remember we all started off writing badly and sometimes still do; to realise we're all still learning (creating and critting); accept all you can offer are your opinions, backed up with your level of experience. (I like to think mine will be considered but never expect the crittee to adopt them.) And to remember that opinions are diverse. What one reader may love might leave another tepid; suggestions made by one person might vary wildly from those made by another. The author has to learn to trust their own judgement eventually, so there's no point in getting your knickers in a twist if they don't use your offerings. I think you'll agree with me, Angeline, it's pretty important we Don't take ourselves too damned seriously. Let it be fun. Writing when writing's no longer a pleasure, or critting when it's become a chore, does no-one any favours.



jeebus, I hope these replies aren't dragging on too long - is that snoring I can hear from the peanut gallery?

I like peanuts.
__________________
poetry submissions


What strange machinery lies between her ears
HarryHill


'tender hearted...

Last edited by butters : 05-07-2013 at 03:23 PM.
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-07-2013, 03:54 PM   #7
Angeline
Poet Chick
 
Angeline's Avatar
 
Angeline is offline
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Dreamland
Posts: 24,224
Quote:
Originally Posted by butters View Post
Wow, now I feel even guiltier about not giving as much as I used to And thankyou, again. You'll be only too aware that sometimes you can give hours of your time to the whole process and barely get a grunt in return It is, however, a valuable learning tool in its own right, getting us to look at the whole process of poetry and try to figure out ways to do things better. It shines a spotlight that can, in turn, be focused on our own writing in order to improve it.

Good critique . . . for me, it's about the poem and not the critter, and tailoring (as best as one can) the nature of the crit to whereabouts on the poetry path the author stands - and that includes me understanding there are many here further along the path than I am and that sometimes means I have little to offer other than purple praise . Honesty is the most vital component, closely followed by balance - letting the author know what I like and why as well as the things I don't, kindness, no schmoozing, and offering suggestions for a different way that might help improve a poem. It's important for me that the author understands that all I have are my opinions and that whatever I suggest isn't intended as being judgemental about their write but my own version of 'what if you try it this way? how does that suit you?' A pet hate of mine are the critters out there to make themselves look edgy, smart, witty and urbane by slashing and burning the less experienced writers and who then expect the crittee to kiss their shiny arses for the privilege. NO ONE need critique like that. The best part is that some of these people (and I'm not referring to anyone on Lit, I might add) have some talent but have plenty of room for improvement in their own writing!

I don't really begin reading a poem specifically looking for areas to crit unless I've been specifically asked to do just that; I like to read a poem first of all with my 'reader' head on. During the course of reading the piece, I will form impressions - such as how much the author's making me visualise the piece, how musical it sounds, its fluidity, its rhythm. Anything like typos almost ALWAYS jar me out of the experience, and clunky/inaccurate word-choices break the spell for me, too. If the poem leaves me with something to say and I've time to say it, then I'll do so. A really bad piece might spark suggestions, but I get a feel for the writer who might be open to them - chances are I'm wrong, it's happened before. If I think I have something to offer, and they might listen, or others reading the piece and my post might get something from it, then I'll say it. If a piece isn't good but has places that show the author has a feeling for poetry, I'll see if I can suggest stuff. If a piece is lovely, but has me tripping up my tongue or my thoughts in places, I'll let them know that happens. Sometimes it's a case of me needing to re-read it to get a better feel for its flow, a better understanding of its meaning. I just want to add here that when making suggestions for change it's so important to do it in the voice of the poem - moreso the poem than the author, even. NEVER try to rewrite someone else's poem's voice in your own. Get a feel for the individual voice you are hearing and offer your thoughts in the same accent!

So the only 'plan' I have is to then put on with my 'think rather than feel' head, identify what I like and why, look more closely for allusions, metaphors and references, and see where I might make suggestions/explain about how or why changes in certain places might smooth those snags or create a tension where tension appears to be lacking. If I can see how one word might be changed for something that'll work better (imo), I'll let them know. It's important for the person receiving feedback to understand why suggested changes might help, not just be told to make them. And it has to feel right to them, as creator of the piece, or they'll lose that connection with it. For me, the very best stuff I get to read renders the words invisible - if that makes any sense: as I'm reading, what I am seeing isn't the words - the imagery is what I'm seeing and it's the placement of specific words, their musicality, their rhythmic quality, that allows this to happen. It's like the words become a living moment, an experience. When this happens, I tend to be rendered speechless with admiration - only finding my tongue to offer superlatives and smushy stuff.

Best advice I can offer is to remember we all started off writing badly and sometimes still do; to realise we're all still learning (creating and critting); accept all you can offer are your opinions, backed up with your level of experience. (I like to think mine will be considered but never expect the crittee to adopt them.) And to remember that opinions are diverse. What one reader may love might leave another tepid; suggestions made by one person might vary wildly from those made by another. The author has to learn to trust their own judgement eventually, so there's no point in getting your knickers in a twist if they don't use your offerings. I think you'll agree with me, Angeline, it's pretty important we Don't take ourselves too damned seriously. Let it be fun. Writing when writing's no longer a pleasure, or critting when it's become a chore, does no-one any favours.



jeebus, I hope these replies aren't dragging on too long - is that snoring I can hear from the peanut gallery?

I like peanuts.
Maybe your posts are going on for some, but those who take the time to actually read will find real gems there. You have a deep understanding about critique imho. I bolded what I feel are some of the really key points you've made. Might have missed some, but that's why people should read it all!

I concur that I learn as much from commenting as I hope the poet does from me leaving a comment, whether they agree with it or not.

I know from a career spent editing others' writing that one needs to be honest but not obnoxious. I'm also very aware of the difference between needing to fix something that doesn't seem to be working and wanting to change something because I like it better another way. I try to focus on the fix and ignore a change that is simply my preference. And I recognize there are many ways to fix something in a poem.

Your point about tailoring the feedback to the poet is another one. I will feel free to be very specific and nitpicky with you, for example, because I know you welcome that kind of feedback and don't take it personally. I would not do that with someone I didn't know felt that way.
__________________
Misterioso

Poems
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-07-2013, 04:22 PM   #8
butters
Harry's Girl
 
butters's Avatar
 
butters is offline
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London UK
Posts: 51,305
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angeline View Post
Maybe your posts are going on for some, but those who take the time to actually read will find real gems there. You have a deep understanding about critique imho. I bolded what I feel are some of the really key points you've made. Might have missed some, but that's why people should read it all!

I concur that I learn as much from commenting as I hope the poet does from me leaving a comment, whether they agree with it or not.

I know from a career spent editing others' writing that one needs to be honest but not obnoxious. I'm also very aware of the difference between needing to fix something that doesn't seem to be working and wanting to change something because I like it better another way. I try to focus on the fix and ignore a change that is simply my preference. And I recognize there are many ways to fix something in a poem.

Your point about tailoring the feedback to the poet is another one. I will feel free to be very specific and nitpicky with you, for example, because I know you welcome that kind of feedback and don't take it personally. I would not do that with someone I didn't know felt that way.
Oh lord, I knew I should have written them then gone back in and edited them - critted them - lol. Yeah, half of it could go just pick out the best bits. hahahahaha

Dunno about deep, but it helps to give the kind of crit you'd like to receive.

What you do isn't what I'd term nitpicky; it's thinking aloud and taking the time to bother!
__________________
poetry submissions


What strange machinery lies between her ears
HarryHill


'tender hearted...
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-08-2013, 01:25 PM   #9
Angeline
Poet Chick
 
Angeline's Avatar
 
Angeline is offline
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Dreamland
Posts: 24,224
I've noticed that many of your poems are short (about ten lines or less) but really effective: that is you pack a lot into a small piece and you don't waste words. the shape of the thing, for one, is a good example. Do you prefer writing shorter poems and, if so, why? Do you have a different approach to writing a short poem than you would a longer one? Any techniques or poetic devices you feel work better in shorter pieces? (I do not think I'm particularly good at writing effective short poems and I always wonder how those who are approach writing them.)
__________________
Misterioso

Poems
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-08-2013, 03:32 PM   #10
butters
Harry's Girl
 
butters's Avatar
 
butters is offline
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London UK
Posts: 51,305
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angeline View Post
I've noticed that many of your poems are short (about ten lines or less) but really effective: that is you pack a lot into a small piece and you don't waste words. the shape of the thing, for one, is a good example.
Over the years I've got better at focusing on how I want to say what wants to be said. The one you've picked there is one of around 10-15 I like more than all the rest. The precision of poetry is one of the important skillsets I've worked hard on to develop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angeline View Post
Do you prefer writing shorter poems and, if so, why?
Unless it's a ku-type challenge, or a short number of lines parameter, I don't start off with any idea of how long a write might be. It grows as it grows, and then it gets landscaped as best as I'm able. When the poetry floodgates opened for me at 40, I spilled plenty Most writes were over 40 or 50 lines, a whole lot of white-water wordedness I had no ability to tame - or desire to. It felt as if it were the words themselves demanding attention, freedom, release - and as if the page/my fingers were simply the outlet for them. Probably a stress thing. During this initial phase that lasted a few years (oh god, lol) I wrote the longest piece . . . something like 700+ lines. But it was with a greater sense of control, and even had some (I considered then and sort of now, too) good bits in it! With time, some control over the words was acquired, but it wasn't till someone I admired told me they loved my writing but the long pieces gave them the shits that made me turn about face and start writing micro! And I do love it when a short piece 'arrives' on the page saying all it wants to say: When it works, I love writing shorts.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Angeline View Post
Do you have a different approach to writing a short poem than you would a longer one?
*thinks*

Not really - they all tend to start out much the same way and that's with a phrase, or concept/image I have to find the initial words for, with no real idea of where I'll end up. The only variation to this would be if I already know it has to fit into a small space. If I am working with that in mind, what I look for are multiple layers to each line, or one or two vivid images that complement or contrast for effect. It might be fair to say I also look for stuff that's already familiar to a reader so they can buy into it faster, sort of using their headspace as extra working room for depth. How do I decide what's familiar? I go to the common ground - an idea many of us might have played with, a common sight, a common experience. I'm no Stephen King, but I see that in his writing all the time - he 'borrows' from his readers, and so we cannot help but invest, to share, become part of the write. So, if it's going to be a short, there's no room on the page for extra words, frills, even melody at times. . . that all has to happen within the reader's mind and so careful word-choice has to be the trigger for this.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Angeline View Post
Any techniques or poetic devices you feel work better in shorter pieces? (I do not think I'm particularly good at writing effective short poems and I always wonder how those who are approach writing them.)
Use less 'fussy' wording would be my number one suggestion. Keep it simple, stupid Not you, the concept. Rhyming - looking back at some of mine, it would seem in most cases to appear in the form of sonic links that lend cohesion in a more subtle manner than direct rhyming.

I also think present tense tends to work better, as does the simple appeal to engage the reader using the word 'you', especially if it's couched in the form of a question: it's hard for the reader to not see that word 'you' as directed at them. By keeping it in present tense, it tends to have a more immediate feel about it. Past tense can work, but it's harder to grab the reader by the . . . oh, wait, I was going to say 'short and curlies' but then remembered there's less of those about nowadays.

So: mainly short, present tense, and make sure every single word works hard to get the layering/clarity required as every line has to do the work of four or five. A successful short poem is a 'tardis' poem - bigger on the inside!
__________________
poetry submissions


What strange machinery lies between her ears
HarryHill


'tender hearted...

Last edited by butters : 05-08-2013 at 05:37 PM.
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-08-2013, 05:01 PM   #11
Angeline
Poet Chick
 
Angeline's Avatar
 
Angeline is offline
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Dreamland
Posts: 24,224
I'm really enjoying your explanations. You are very good at articulating this. Just sayin'.

I'm going to post the poem we're discussing in case someone doesn't click the link. I'll delete it later if you want me to take it away. I really think it's spectacular though I am not sure I'm 100 percent with the lack of capitalization and end punctuation. That may be my preference though and maybe the poem is best served the way it is now.

the shape of the thing
bybuttersİ

who can tell me the shape of madness?
what varicose seas drive forth
in tension of the blood
what sad, voluptuous dreams become
escape from inner voices
as they burn the heretics -
over and over
__________________
Misterioso

Poems
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-08-2013, 11:53 PM   #12
UnderYourSpell
Gerund Whore
 
UnderYourSpell's Avatar
 
UnderYourSpell is online now
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow
Posts: 12,743
What do you think about Form poetry? Do you hate it? Find it's restrictions impossible to convey what you want to say?
__________________

Blessed are the cracked for it is they that let in the light
They say a smile is a gift which is free to the giver and precious to the recipient.
But giving the finger is free, too, and I find it more personal and sincere.
If at first you don't succeed....skydiving is not for you ....
If you don't pay your exorcist .... do you get repossessed?
I shall always decide not to decide, unless of course I decide to change my mind.
....But I, being poor, have only my dreams, I have spread my dreams under your feet,Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.......
Nil Caborundum illigitimi
Sestina slut
Annie submits
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-09-2013, 01:10 PM   #13
butters
Harry's Girl
 
butters's Avatar
 
butters is offline
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London UK
Posts: 51,305
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angeline View Post
I'm really enjoying your explanations. You are very good at articulating this. Just sayin'.

I'm going to post the poem we're discussing in case someone doesn't click the link. I'll delete it later if you want me to take it away. I really think it's spectacular though I am not sure I'm 100 percent with the lack of capitalization and end punctuation. That may be my preference though and maybe the poem is best served the way it is now.

the shape of the thing
bybuttersİ

who can tell me the shape of madness?
what varicose seas drive forth
in tension of the blood
what sad, voluptuous dreams become
escape from inner voices
as they burn the heretics -
over and over


quite happy for it to stay put, thanks.

the lack of caps in my writes bugs a lot of people, i know. *sighs*
Perhaps I'm in a bad habit, perhaps it's a matter only of preference; it's not my wish to alienate readers, and yet I feel it looks right the way it stands. In a few years it may just as likely appear a weak affectation to my eyes.

Would you have preferred to read this capped and with alternate punctuation in places, Angie? Can you tell me what spoils it for you as it stands, so I can see through your eyes and learn from it? Too often it's not till years later re-reading what has been posted that the glaring errors leap out at me and cause me to squirm
__________________
poetry submissions


What strange machinery lies between her ears
HarryHill


'tender hearted...
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-09-2013, 01:53 PM   #14
butters
Harry's Girl
 
butters's Avatar
 
butters is offline
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London UK
Posts: 51,305
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderYourSpell View Post
What do you think about Form poetry? Do you hate it? Find it's restrictions impossible to convey what you want to say?
Annie! Lovely so see you posting, and thanks for stopping by to ask these questions. Drag up a stool, help yourself to popcorn, and I'll see what I can do to answer them.

What do you think about form poetry?
As far as I'm concerned, all types of poetry have their place: I'll not turn my nose up at forms that were once more popular than they are now, nor demand poets employ an utterly modern approach when penning a piece. Whilst frequently better to write for the age we live in (or risk alienating the 'modern' reader), ultimately it's the voice of the poem that (to my mind) should dictate how it's framed. If it's being used, then it should act as the bones on which to hang the flesh of the piece: so a finished form-write should have great bones we might only glimpse with all the focus on the living, breathing meat. A piece with all its bones showing is an anorexic poem, though there have been some I found more an anatomical study and acceptable as such.

Do you hate it?

Nope

What I dislike about form poetry has everything to do with an authors' lack of ability (including my own) and little to do with an individual form. Having said that, as you are all too aware, Annie (being so adept with form and favouring using it for much of your writing), some forms can be stinkers! They become so convoluted and twisty they expose our failings and spotlight weak rhyme-choices/forced phrasing leaving us nowhere to hide I prefer those forms that more closely adopt natural speech-patterning and allow more freedom of expression.

Find it's restrictions impossible to convey what you want to say?
I find writing it complex in most cases, and appreciate the skills involved when I read a piece that works. A piece that works is one where I'm so engaged in the moment of the poem that it's only afterwards I realise a form has been utilised.

Too often I find the parameters challenging, being more used to a freer manner of expression. It can be tedious struggling to find the right way to fit words in, for rhyme/stress values, but that only points to my own lack of skill. It also can be a fun exercise, but when it becomes either a chore or an exercise it then becomes about getting creative in an intellectual manner (head poetry) rather than being creative in a more intuitive way - what I'd term 'heart' poetry. Both have their place, and 'head' poetry can teach me more about how to write than the more intuitive version of expressing. From the form challenges I've taken part in, I've learned that these mental jigsaws can be fun, and can be really frustrating; I've also learned that familiarity with a form can make a huge difference to how the write can progress, and there's a really cool sense of freedom when skills begin to match more equally with parameters and things all come together!

Thanks for asking these questions, Anie, and feel free to ask anything else you'd like. It'd be great to see you putting yourself up for an interview here. There're loads of things I can think of to ask you
__________________
poetry submissions


What strange machinery lies between her ears
HarryHill


'tender hearted...
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-09-2013, 02:12 PM   #15
Angeline
Poet Chick
 
Angeline's Avatar
 
Angeline is offline
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Dreamland
Posts: 24,224
Quote:
Originally Posted by butters View Post


quite happy for it to stay put, thanks.

the lack of caps in my writes bugs a lot of people, i know. *sighs*
Perhaps I'm in a bad habit, perhaps it's a matter only of preference; it's not my wish to alienate readers, and yet I feel it looks right the way it stands. In a few years it may just as likely appear a weak affectation to my eyes.

Would you have preferred to read this capped and with alternate punctuation in places, Angie? Can you tell me what spoils it for you as it stands, so I can see through your eyes and learn from it? Too often it's not till years later re-reading what has been posted that the glaring errors leap out at me and cause me to squirm
I can't really say that anything "spoils" it for me, because as I read through your offerings it still stood out as an especially good poem. So the lack of caps and punctuation did not keep me from getting that. And I also know that both lack of capping and even failing to punctuate or punctuating differently from what a reader would expect can actually be strengths in a poem (William Carlos Williams and ee cummings are perfect examples of that).

With the caps it is simply a matter of preference on my part. (I think.) I'm trying to think of a way your poem would be better served if you had treated the lines with caps and I'm not really succeeding in that effort, so let's leave it at preference.

The punctuation is another matter, and for me it is the consistency issue (something that frankly has been so drilled into my being as an editor that it's hard for me to leave things inconsistent--and sometimes it is better to do that in a poem). Let's look at your poem again:

who can tell me the shape of madness?
what varicose seas drive forth
in tension of the blood
what sad, voluptuous dreams become
escape from inner voices
as they burn the heretics -
over and over

It looks half-punctuated to me. Why place a question mark after "madness" but not after "blood" or "over" in the last line? They're all questions. I understand that you put a comma between "sad" and "voluptuous" because you don't want it read as if the former is modifying the latter, right? I also understand that you used a dash after "heretics" because you want the reader to pause before moving down to that last line. So why not put the rest of the necessary marks in? It seems as if they're just missing. I can, however, see why you wouldn't want a question mark at the very end of the piece. Once you put that dash in, you've passed the question part.

If I were editing it, I'd do something like this:

Who can tell the shape
of madness? What varicose seas
drive forth in tension
of the blood? What sad,
voluptuous dreams become
escape from inner voices?

They burn the heretics
over and over.

That's the full Angeline treatment lol and while it does resolve the problem of putting a question mark at the end of the poem, it probably changes it to a point where the poem doesn't work quite the same way anymore. But that is seeing it through my eyes.

I honestly am never sure how much my drive to make something look grammatically "right" has to do with me being an editor and how much with my preference as a poet.

Thanks for being so willing to look at your writing on such a micro level. I love you for your poems AND your confidence. It's a great learning experience pour moi, Divine Ms. B.
__________________
Misterioso

Poems

Last edited by Angeline : 05-09-2013 at 02:15 PM.
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-09-2013, 02:32 PM   #16
butters
Harry's Girl
 
butters's Avatar
 
butters is offline
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London UK
Posts: 51,305
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angeline View Post
I can't really say that anything "spoils" it for me, because as I read through your offerings it still stood out as an especially good poem. So the lack of caps and punctuation did not keep me from getting that. And I also know that both lack of capping and even failing to punctuate or punctuating differently from what a reader would expect can actually be strengths in a poem (William Carlos Williams and ee cummings are perfect examples of that).

With the caps it is simply a matter of preference on my part. (I think.) I'm trying to think of a way your poem would be better served if you had treated the lines with caps and I'm not really succeeding in that effort, so let's leave it at preference.
Okay

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angeline View Post
The punctuation is another matter, and for me it is the consistency issue (something that frankly has been so drilled into my being as an editor that it's hard for me to leave things inconsistent--and sometimes it is better to do that in a poem). Let's look at your poem again:

who can tell me the shape of madness?
what varicose seas drive forth
in tension of the blood
what sad, voluptuous dreams become
escape from inner voices
as they burn the heretics -
over and over

It looks half-punctuated to me. Why place a question mark after "madness" but not after "blood" or "over" in the last line? They're all questions.
Ah, there lies the problem. They're not questions. I intended them as statements . . . like 'What great legs that girl has'. It's that initial question that causes the conflict/ambiguity of those further lines, and originally I kind of liked the idea they played both as statement/question - now I'm not so sure but don't know how to fix that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angeline View Post
I understand that you put a comma between "sad" and "voluptuous" because you don't want it read as if the former is modifying the latter, right? I also understand that you used a dash after "heretics" because you want the reader to pause before moving down to that last line. So why not put the rest of the necessary marks in? It seems as if they're just missing. I can, however, see why you wouldn't want a question mark at the very end of the piece. Once you put that dash in, you've passed the question part.

If I were editing it, I'd do something like this:

Who can tell me the shape
of madness? What varicose seas
drive forth in tension
of the blood? What sad,
voluptuous dreams become
escape from inner voices?

They burn the heretics
over and over.

That's the full Angeline treatment lol and while it does resolve the problem of putting a question mark at the end of the poem, it probably changes it to a point where the poem doesn't work quite the same way anymore. But that is seeing it through my eyes.

I honestly am never sure how much my drive to make something look grammatically "right" has to do with me being an editor and how much with my preference as a poet.

Thanks for being so willing to look at your writing on such a micro level. I love you for your poems AND your confidence. It's a great learning experience pour moi, Divine Ms. B.
It does change the poem, but in an interesting way: especially like your treatment of the shape/of madness enjambement. *nods*

Macro-micro - it's all good. Just don't throw me any technical googlies - I have enough problems deciphering what 1201 wants me/others to understand in his deep posts where there's no paddling in the shallows allowed and while I can keep my eyes open underwater I'll never develop the ability to think laterally whilst holding my breath. When you guys (Tzara, GM, twelve and more) get into these educated discussions about poets and poetical phenomena, all I can do is hold onto the pool sides or snorkel!

Confidence? Ha! I'm fine when we're focusing on poetry, less so when we're talking about me.

__________________
poetry submissions


What strange machinery lies between her ears
HarryHill


'tender hearted...
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-09-2013, 08:23 PM   #17
Angeline
Poet Chick
 
Angeline's Avatar
 
Angeline is offline
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Dreamland
Posts: 24,224
Quote:
Originally Posted by butters View Post
Okay


Ah, there lies the problem. They're not questions. I intended them as statements . . . like 'What great legs that girl has'. It's that initial question that causes the conflict/ambiguity of those further lines, and originally I kind of liked the idea they played both as statement/question - now I'm not so sure but don't know how to fix that.


It does change the poem, but in an interesting way: especially like your treatment of the shape/of madness enjambement. *nods*

Macro-micro - it's all good. Just don't throw me any technical googlies - I have enough problems deciphering what 1201 wants me/others to understand in his deep posts where there's no paddling in the shallows allowed and while I can keep my eyes open underwater I'll never develop the ability to think laterally whilst holding my breath. When you guys (Tzara, GM, twelve and more) get into these educated discussions about poets and poetical phenomena, all I can do is hold onto the pool sides or snorkel!

Confidence? Ha! I'm fine when we're focusing on poetry, less so when we're talking about me.

I totally did not get that those other lines should be read as statements, not questions (the "whats" threw me). Well it doesn't really matter does it because the strength and rhetorical power of the poem still come across. And we know that once a poem is out of our hands, readers will see what they want to see.

However here is another alternate treatment that might make readers less likely to misread:

who can tell me the shape of madness?

what varicose seas drive forth
in tension of the blood
what sad, voluptuous dreams
become escape from inner voices
as they burn the heretics -
over and over

It's just a shaping difference (uh and I moved the "become" again lol), but it dissociates that first line somewhat from the other two "what" lines. Another option would be to just take them out (that is, start the lines with "varicose" and "sad", respectively.

__________________
Misterioso

Poems
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-09-2013, 10:47 PM   #18
Tristesse2
chillin'
 
Tristesse2's Avatar
 
Tristesse2 is offline
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: where you'd like to be
Posts: 11,819
Butters, I'd like to congratulate you on your answers to the various questions from other poets, they are very complete, so much so I can think off nothing further to ask you.
__________________
An invitation to read.
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-10-2013, 04:20 AM   #19
butters
Harry's Girl
 
butters's Avatar
 
butters is offline
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London UK
Posts: 51,305
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angeline View Post
I totally did not get that those other lines should be read as statements, not questions (the "whats" threw me). Well it doesn't really matter does it because the strength and rhetorical power of the poem still come across. And we know that once a poem is out of our hands, readers will see what they want to see.

However here is another alternate treatment that might make readers less likely to misread:

who can tell me the shape of madness?

what varicose seas drive forth
in tension of the blood
what sad, voluptuous dreams
become escape from inner voices
as they burn the heretics -
over and over

It's just a shaping difference (uh and I moved the "become" again lol), but it dissociates that first line somewhat from the other two "what" lines. Another option would be to just take them out (that is, start the lines with "varicose" and "sad", respectively.

Ooh! I did consider that first line as titular, originally, but wasn't convinced. Seeing how you've laid it out definitely reduces the ambiguity. Thankyou!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tristesse2 View Post
Butters, I'd like to congratulate you on your answers to the various questions from other poets, they are very complete, so much so I can think off nothing further to ask you.
I knew I talked too much
__________________
poetry submissions


What strange machinery lies between her ears
HarryHill


'tender hearted...
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-10-2013, 07:49 AM   #20
butters
Harry's Girl
 
butters's Avatar
 
butters is offline
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London UK
Posts: 51,305
Harry, thanks for your comment on 'and you and you and you' but what the hell are eol's?
__________________
poetry submissions


What strange machinery lies between her ears
HarryHill


'tender hearted...
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-11-2013, 03:29 PM   #21
Tristesse2
chillin'
 
Tristesse2's Avatar
 
Tristesse2 is offline
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: where you'd like to be
Posts: 11,819
Butters, I've noticed you have shown some lovely photography if not in this forum then in the General Board. What do you draw on that colours your poetry, not inspires it but gives it the Butters touch?

You do have a distinct voice, I'm wondering how you found it, where it comes from.
__________________
An invitation to read.
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-11-2013, 05:08 PM   #22
butters
Harry's Girl
 
butters's Avatar
 
butters is offline
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: London UK
Posts: 51,305
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tristesse2 View Post
Butters, I've noticed you have shown some lovely photography if not in this forum then in the General Board. What do you draw on that colours your poetry, not inspires it but gives it the Butters touch?

You do have a distinct voice, I'm wondering how you found it, where it comes from.
Thankyou Not sure if you mean some of the landscapes/animals or some of the other, more personal shots (which relied on soft-focus/half-reveal-half-obscure/zooming in on certain aspects for effect). If the latter, maybe they are a bit like my poems!

*frowns* I'm not sure if this actually answers your question, Tess, but it's the best I have: layering is important to me; visuals . . . it's important to pack in lots of visuals or a few really sharp ones; trying to deliver the voice of the poem - its own truth (however invented it may be) regardless of my own pov; mostly, though, I think it may be sound that most colours the writes. If I were to sit back and look through an editor/critic's eyes, sound-play seems to be the most universal identifying factor in my writes. Lines such as these from and you and you and you feel (to me) almost like one-handed playing on piano keys or something:

Quote:
a lance to bear in diamond jousts,
advancing through the teeth of fear
to seize that chance to win the soured prize.
Perhaps a poet's 'voice' is something others can identify faster than an author, and it's only by zooming out, changing focus, that some things become clearer. I honestly didn't realise I'd yet got to that point where people could say my writes had 'a voice'; maybe it's only adopting something I find relatively easy (sonics-play) and using it as a crutch to support writes that might be weak in other areas. I do know it's a sort of stand-by or go-to place if I get stuck. I don't know where I found it, but no-one's knocked on my door yet asking for it back I'm wondering if it comes from just having a musical sort of ear - inasmuch as I was always able to pick out a tune on almost any instrument after quickly identifying where the notes lay, but not reading music at the same time. That might be absolutely wrong, but it's a best guess.

Hope that answered your question, Tess - it was a hard one!
__________________
poetry submissions


What strange machinery lies between her ears
HarryHill


'tender hearted...
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-12-2013, 12:26 PM   #23
UnderYourSpell
Gerund Whore
 
UnderYourSpell's Avatar
 
UnderYourSpell is online now
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Somewhere over the rainbow
Posts: 12,743
As the majority of poets here seem to be American, do you ever wonder (as I have on occassion) if they will actually 'get' what you are saying or read a completely different meaning into your words?
__________________

Blessed are the cracked for it is they that let in the light
They say a smile is a gift which is free to the giver and precious to the recipient.
But giving the finger is free, too, and I find it more personal and sincere.
If at first you don't succeed....skydiving is not for you ....
If you don't pay your exorcist .... do you get repossessed?
I shall always decide not to decide, unless of course I decide to change my mind.
....But I, being poor, have only my dreams, I have spread my dreams under your feet,Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.......
Nil Caborundum illigitimi
Sestina slut
Annie submits
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-12-2013, 12:47 PM   #24
Tristesse2
chillin'
 
Tristesse2's Avatar
 
Tristesse2 is offline
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: where you'd like to be
Posts: 11,819
Quote:
Originally Posted by UnderYourSpell View Post
As the majority of poets here seem to be American, do you ever wonder (as I have on occassion) if they will actually 'get' what you are saying or read a completely different meaning into your words?
Oh, good question, Annie! I've wondered that too.
__________________
An invitation to read.
  Reply With Quote

Old 05-12-2013, 01:52 PM   #25
Tristesse2
chillin'
 
Tristesse2's Avatar
 
Tristesse2 is offline
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: where you'd like to be
Posts: 11,819
Quote:
Originally Posted by butters View Post
Thankyou Not sure if you mean some of the landscapes/animals or some of the other, more personal shots (which relied on soft-focus/half-reveal-half-obscure/zooming in on certain aspects for effect). If the latter, maybe they are a bit like my poems!
The ones that I saw I think you took on a walk on a lovely day, they were particularly atmospheric and lovely.

Quote:
Originally Posted by butters
*frowns* I'm not sure if this actually answers your question, Tess, but it's the best I have: layering is important to me; visuals . . . it's important to pack in lots of visuals or a few really sharp ones; trying to deliver the voice of the poem - its own truth (however invented it may be) regardless of my own pov; mostly, though, I think it may be sound that most colours the writes. If I were to sit back and look through an editor/critic's eyes, sound-play seems to be the most universal identifying factor in my writes. Lines such as these from and you and you and you feel (to me) almost like one-handed playing on piano keys or something::
Yes, that is an amazing piece. You use eyes and ears to full impacrt. And, yes, you did answer me, thank you.




Quote:
Originally Posted by butters
Perhaps a poet's 'voice' is something others can identify faster than an author, and it's only by zooming out, changing focus, that some things become clearer. I honestly didn't realise I'd yet got to that point where people could say my writes had 'a voice'; maybe it's only adopting something I find relatively easy (sonics-play) and using it as a crutch to support writes that might be weak in other areas. I do know it's a sort of stand-by or go-to place if I get stuck. I don't know where I found it, but no-one's knocked on my door yet asking for it back I'm wondering if it comes from just having a musical sort of ear - inasmuch as I was always able to pick out a tune on almost any instrument after quickly identifying where the notes lay, but not reading music at the same time. That might be absolutely wrong, but it's a best guess.

Hope that answered your question, Tess - it was a hard one!
Thanks so much, you talented lady, you. and happy mothers day.
__________________
An invitation to read.
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump



All times are GMT -4. The time now is 10:12 PM.

Copyright 1998-2013 Literotica Online. Literotica is a registered trademark.