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View Poll Results: The word "bi" or "bisexual" without a specific gender attached is meant to infer
a man who goes both ways 3 7.14%
a woman who goes both ways 1 2.38%
It can go either way - consider the context. 36 85.71%
Without a specific gender cited, I'm unsure 2 4.76%
Voters: 42. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 04-25-2013, 09:27 PM   #26
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Originally Posted by Novita76 View Post
Just because man or woman is willing to push the boundries of being able to touch some one of the same gender does not make them bi-sexual. it just means they are able to be comfortable with something that is considered to not be within the scope of what is "normal".
If they are able to be aroused sexually by touching others regardless of gender, yes they are bisexual. If they don't think they are, they are in the Great Self-Denial. Sounds like you might be right there with them.
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Old 04-25-2013, 09:35 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by sr71plt View Post
If they are able to be aroused sexually by touching others regardless of gender, yes they are bisexual. If they don't think they are, they are in the Great Self-Denial. Sounds like you might be right there with them.
I pretty much told her the same thing, but in the dreaded and dead #25 post.
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Old 04-25-2013, 10:02 PM   #28
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I pretty much told her the same thing, but in the dreaded and dead #25 post.
Yep, you did. I didn't see it before I posted. Sorry.
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Old 04-25-2013, 10:32 PM   #29
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And I will chime right in with the both of you gentlemen-- and the several other people who have said the same thing.

There is a long spectrum between straight and gay-- and every step of the way is bisexual.


But very few people retain the same identity all the way through life.
I have to say, I feel this is an accurate expression for many of us;


While I was searching for these images, I found this one, which I include for the cute
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Old 04-25-2013, 10:35 PM   #30
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Originally Posted by sr71plt View Post
Yep, you did. I didn't see it before I posted. Sorry.
Honest thanks, but no apology needed. The #25 post gets lost...
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Old 04-25-2013, 11:23 PM   #31
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Originally Posted by Stella_Omega View Post
And I will chime right in with the both of you gentlemen-- and the several other people who have said the same thing.

There is a long spectrum between straight and gay-- and every step of the way is bisexual.


But very few people retain the same identity all the way through life.
I have to say, I feel this is an accurate expression for many of us;


While I was searching for these images, I found this one, which I include for the cute

erm... You're implying that the Kinsey Scale is linear. It's not.

There are WAY more heteros than the total of bisexuals, gays and lesbians combined.

I also kinda, sorta agree with your "squiggly line" concept, except that I think a LOT of people who self identify as bisexuals ain't. They are really either bi-curious hedonistic posers or are gays / lesbians who are in "transition" but can't admit it to themselves. I think the number of TRUE bisexuals (people who are capable of loving either gender) is less than the gay/lesbian population. ('course that's just a guess)
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Old 04-25-2013, 11:41 PM   #32
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Many (okay, maybe it was many, many, many) moons ago I remember referring to a woman who had been with another woman sexually as bi-sexual and being corrected. Just because she had engaged in a sexual encounter with another woman, and might do so again, didn't make her bi-sexual. Their argument was that she would not seek out an emotional relationship with a woman, therefore, she was just a kinky hetero.
On the flip-side to that, I knew one lady who occasionally had recreational sex with men but identified as lesbian because she only fell in love with women.

My two cent's worth: sexuality, love, orientation, and identity are COMPLICATED. Even trying to characterise the distinction between those concepts is complicated. We don't have enough words for all the possible nuances in this space, and even if we did nobody would remember them all and we'd be back at square one.

Instead, people end up picking some common-but-imprecise word that matches the essentials if not the details of their orientation... the catch being that everybody has different ideas of what's "essential".

And then people turn those labels into a tribal thing. Not without reason - especially if you're from a minority subject to discrimination, finding a community of like-minded people can literally be a life-saver - but with tribalism comes a need to police the boundaries of the tribe and stop those icky outsiders from sneaking in. When everybody has different ideas of what they want their tribe to be about, that gets REALLY messy. (See also: radfem vs trans women.)

Speaking of such things, some of the inhabitants of the Isle of Lesbos are still resisting the redefinition of the word 'Lesbian' to mean homosexual women.
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Old 04-26-2013, 02:29 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Bramblethorn View Post
My two cent's worth: sexuality, love, orientation, and identity are COMPLICATED. Even trying to characterise the distinction between those concepts is complicated. We don't have enough words for all the possible nuances in this space, and even if we did nobody would remember them all and we'd be back at square one.

Instead, people end up picking some common-but-imprecise word that matches the essentials if not the details of their orientation... the catch being that everybody has different ideas of what's "essential".
Agree. The term "bisexual" is inherently general; it covers a lot of ground. It's my contention that the majority of human beings are born with an innate curiosity toward the sexual aspects of those around them, and they seek to clarify their own behaviors through experimentation. Thus, why I feel that bisexuality is the natural norm for the majority of human beings.

'Bisexual' is appropriate because we, as a species, have only two sexes. Male and female. Yes, there are those who are born intersexed, also known as hermaphrodites, but the classification of basic gender identity remains between the two basic labels. And even in the case of intersexed individuals, they are still, technically, bisexual, just more so because of variations in their physical makeup.

Identification as homosexual, gay, lesbian, whatever, is a matter of personal identity, in my opinion. The label is adopted to indicate a strong preference one way or the other. It doesn't overrule any natural tendencies to find members of the same or opposite sex attractive; those inclinations are still there. Over time, gays or lesbians may solidify their attractions and wind up precluding members of the opposite sex. It's a matter of the progression of degrees of attraction and, in many cases, life experiences.
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Old 04-26-2013, 10:34 AM   #34
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Originally Posted by slyc_willie View Post
Agree. The term "bisexual" is inherently general; it covers a lot of ground. It's my contention that the majority of human beings are born with an innate curiosity toward the sexual aspects of those around them, and they seek to clarify their own behaviors through experimentation. Thus, why I feel that bisexuality is the natural norm for the majority of human beings.
Your theory just doesn't, as they say, hold water, show me one study accepted by the American Psychiatric Association or the American Psychological Association which even hints that we are all bisexual. You'll find none!

By your theory I am not a lesbian, I'm a bisexual so I have no rights to anything because I can be cured of my lesbianism, become bisexual and live happily ever after with a man. That is just so much bullshit. I have no desire to be sexually with a man, as a matter of fact I find even the thought of having sex with a man disgusting. Please don't take that wrong, I do not see anything disgusting in heterosexual or gay sex between those who happen to enjoy doing so. By the way I tend to use the term GAY as it was intended, meaning men who are sexually oriented to other men. I'm a lesbian, he's gay!

If we were all bisexual there wouldn't be any lesbians or gays, there surely wouldn't be any hetero women, sex with another woman just beats the hell out of sex with a man, we don't roll over and go to sleep, we don't rush to orgasm nor after having one, in most cases more than one, we still have a desire to do the same for our partner, we can make love for hours if we choose to do so. Maybe my lesbianism is showing but I would think if we were all bisexual you men wouldn't be getting a lot of pussy. Not that it would matter you'd be getting yours with your boyfriend.

In my opinion you are so very wrong. Personal opinions, we all have them but yours in not backed up by any psychological science, mine is. There are homosexuals, heterosexuals, bisexuals, transsexuals and asexuals all backed up by science.
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Old 04-26-2013, 11:51 AM   #35
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Well, that's a lot of gobblygook. It's really quite simple. If you can get sexually aroused by both a male and a female, you basically are bi. As I think that most males with a functioning sex drive can get it up for a fence post when they put their mind to it, my view is that they basically are bi and whatever falls away from that is the result of conditioning and self-delusion. I won't speak for females, although I would think that they could get aroused by any gender who paid the right attention to them as well. Don't need no scientific association studies to validate my belief on this.

It's fun to see how convoluted you can get with your self-delusion though.
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Old 04-26-2013, 02:56 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by Dyslexicea View Post
Your theory just doesn't, as they say, hold water, show me one study accepted by the American Psychiatric Association or the American Psychological Association which even hints that we are all bisexual. You'll find none!

By your theory I am not a lesbian, I'm a bisexual so I have no rights to anything because I can be cured of my lesbianism, become bisexual and live happily ever after with a man. That is just so much bullshit. I have no desire to be sexually with a man, as a matter of fact I find even the thought of having sex with a man disgusting. Please don't take that wrong, I do not see anything disgusting in heterosexual or gay sex between those who happen to enjoy doing so. By the way I tend to use the term GAY as it was intended, meaning men who are sexually oriented to other men. I'm a lesbian, he's gay!

If we were all bisexual there wouldn't be any lesbians or gays, there surely wouldn't be any hetero women, sex with another woman just beats the hell out of sex with a man, we don't roll over and go to sleep, we don't rush to orgasm nor after having one, in most cases more than one, we still have a desire to do the same for our partner, we can make love for hours if we choose to do so. Maybe my lesbianism is showing but I would think if we were all bisexual you men wouldn't be getting a lot of pussy. Not that it would matter you'd be getting yours with your boyfriend.

In my opinion you are so very wrong. Personal opinions, we all have them but yours in not backed up by any psychological science, mine is. There are homosexuals, heterosexuals, bisexuals, transsexuals and asexuals all backed up by science.
Please show me where I ever indicated any idea of anyone being "cured," or that they should be. Take a moment to read over my post again.

And then read this, straight from the APA website:

Quote:
There is no consensus among scientists about the exact reasons that an individual develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay, or lesbian orientation. Although much research has examined the possible genetic, hormonal, developmental, social, and cultural influences on sexual orientation, no findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude that sexual orientation is determined by any particular factor or factors. Many think that nature and nurture both play complex roles; most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation.
Translation: no one knows the true origins of human sexuality, so any theory is valid until one is proven. Now, what were you saying about your theory being backed by science?

The bullshit is yours.

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Old 04-26-2013, 04:38 PM   #37
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Well, that's a lot of gobblygook. It's really quite simple. If you can get sexually aroused by both a male and a female, you basically are bi. As I think that most males with a functioning sex drive can get it up for a fence post when they put their mind to it, my view is that they basically are bi and whatever falls away from that is the result of conditioning and self-delusion. I won't speak for females, although I would think that they could get aroused by any gender who paid the right attention to them as well. Don't need no scientific association studies to validate my belief on this.

It's fun to see how convoluted you can get with your self-delusion though.
That's because your a man and your views are always right!
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Old 04-26-2013, 04:39 PM   #38
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That's because your a man and your views are always right!
Ah, that old chestnut again.

Roll that out often, do you?
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Old 04-26-2013, 05:26 PM   #39
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Originally Posted by slyc_willie View Post
Please show me where I ever indicated any idea of anyone being "cured," or that they should be. Take a moment to read over my post again.

And then read this, straight from the APA website:

Quote:
There is no consensus among scientists about the exact reasons that an individual develops a heterosexual, bisexual, gay, or lesbian orientation. Although much research has examined the possible genetic, hormonal, developmental, social, and cultural influences on sexual orientation, no findings have emerged that permit scientists to conclude that sexual orientation is determined by any particular factor or factors. Many think that nature and nurture both play complex roles; most people experience little or no sense of choice about their sexual orientation.
Translation: no one knows the true origins of human sexuality, so any theory is valid until one is proven. Now, what were you saying about your theory being backed by science?

The bullshit is yours.
Where does this quote say we are all bisexual? It's doesn't, it says "Heterosexual, bisexual, gay, or lesbian orientation. There is nothing in that statement that even hints that we are all bisexual in nature nor well you find anywhere in any APA documentation saying so.

I didn't really mean you said we could be cured. I should have stated:

"By your theory I am not a lesbian, I'm a bisexual so the homophobes, conservative and religious wacko haters could use your theory to say I have no rights to anything because I can be cured of my lesbianism, become bisexual and live happily ever after with a man. That is just so much bullshit. I have no desire to be sexually with a man, as a matter of fact I find even the thought of having sex with a man disgusting. Please don't take that wrong, I do not see anything disgusting in heterosexual or gay sex between those who happen to enjoy doing so. By the way I tend to use the term GAY as it was intended, meaning men who are sexually oriented to other men. I'm a lesbian, he's gay!"

By the way I still think your theory is bullshit! If we are all bisexual and it's only nurture that makes us anything else, than nurture must be the deciding factor. So children raised by lesbian and gay couples should for the most part be lesbian or gay. But the truth is children raised by lesbian and gay couples are no more likely to be lesbian or gay than the general population.

If you're so sure we are all bisexual why don't you take your own poll, most people do know their own sexual orientation.
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Old 04-26-2013, 08:05 PM   #40
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I didn't really mean you said we could be cured. I should have stated:

"By your theory I am not a lesbian, I'm a bisexual so the homophobes, conservative and religious wacko haters could use your theory to say I have no rights to anything because I can be cured of my lesbianism, become bisexual and live happily ever after with a man. That is just so much bullshit.
That line of argument is bullshit when applied to lesbians. But it's bullshit when applied to actual bisexuals too. Even if a woman is capable of fulfillment in a relationship with a man, she still has the right to choose another woman.

(And if ten or twenty years from now, Roman Catholic neuroscientists were to come up with a miracle treatment that could make people straight, with no major side-effects... would that make same-sex relationships any less valid?)

Keep in mind, most of the people you're talking about there are starting from the position that your relationships shouldn't be respected. They'll find arguments wherever they can, or make them up if need be. If we tell them sexuality is a choice, they will respond "so choose to be straight". If we tell them "I was born this way and can't change", they will tell themselves we're lying, or they'll try to offer a bullshit "cure".

Even if we do manage to convince them that it's something hardwired that nobody can change, they'll just start talking about pedophiles who have a moral duty to struggle against their hardwired orientation. To shoot down that point we need to start talking about consent between adults... which is where the discussion should've started in the first place.
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Old 04-27-2013, 02:33 AM   #41
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By the way I still think your theory is bullshit! If we are all bisexual and it's only nurture that makes us anything else, than nurture must be the deciding factor. So children raised by lesbian and gay couples should for the most part be lesbian or gay. But the truth is children raised by lesbian and gay couples are no more likely to be lesbian or gay than the general population.

If you're so sure we are all bisexual why don't you take your own poll, most people do know their own sexual orientation.
If you believe that last line, I have a bridge to sell you. Most people, in my opinion, are in the dark regarding their true sexual orientation.

If you are able, put aside your misandry for the sake of discussion.

The theory that humans are born bisexual merely indicates a basic sexual curiosity, or desire, to sample sexual and emotional relationships with members of both the same and opposite sex. Whether this is realized or not is a matter of personal preference, which is greatly influenced by the experiences every individual human goes through.

At some point, be it during our early teens or late twenties or whenever, we settle on a sexual identity. This comes about as the result of conscious or subconscious decision. We adopt a label, identifying ourselves as being straight, gay, lesbian, or bi. That label then goes on to define our orientation toward others around us.

Now, which would you prefer to believe? That sexuality is hard-wired in us all from the beginning, giving us no choice as to whom we are attracted, or that our experiences throughout our lives give us the option to select our sexual identity? Would you prefer to have no control over your sexuality, or to acknowledge that your preferences are the result of personal affirmations, and are, therefore, uniquely your own?

Bisexuality is the basic starting point. From there, we experiment, we wonder, we dream. We sample a bit of this and a bit of that, if not in practice, then in theory. And we come up with, individually, our own particular notions of who and what we are.

As far as I'm concerned, I'm in the relationship I'm in because I want to be there. I am a happily bisexual man who has chosen to devote his life to a woman. The choice was mine to make, and the realizations of my sexuality were entirely the result of my experiences. I was not 'hard-wired' to be straight; I realized, based on my experiences, that I prefer the life I share with the woman I love over all other possibilities.

Falling back on the limitations of "Nature vs. Nurture" is a cop-out. There are so many factors that go into determining any single person's sexuality that arguing one way or the other is an exercise in futility. You aren't a lesbian because you were 'made that way.' You came to a personal realization that you prefer your own sex over the other.

At least, I hope you did.

You may now resume your standard misandrist arguments.
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Old 04-27-2013, 04:17 AM   #42
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At some point, be it during our early teens or late twenties or whenever, we settle on a sexual identity. This comes about as the result of conscious or subconscious decision. We adopt a label, identifying ourselves as being straight, gay, lesbian, or bi. That label then goes on to define our orientation toward others around us.

Now, which would you prefer to believe? That sexuality is hard-wired in us all from the beginning, giving us no choice as to whom we are attracted, or that our experiences throughout our lives give us the option to select our sexual identity? Would you prefer to have no control over your sexuality, or to acknowledge that your preferences are the result of personal affirmations, and are, therefore, uniquely your own?
Whether we find it comfortable to believe says nothing about whether it's true.

In a lot of places homosexuality is a one-way ticket to a shitty life. There are plenty of homosexual men and women who have tried very hard to choose a different sexual identity and many kill themselves when they find they can't. (Gay teens have much higher rates of suicide than their straight counterparts.) It's hard to believe that those people had any meaningful choice about their orientation.

(I am not claiming that ALL orientation is hardwired, BTW - only that it certainly seems to be that way for some.)
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Old 04-27-2013, 10:22 AM   #43
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I don't see you proving the "truth" of anything on this, Brambleton. Slyc has stated a personal belief in the natural order of this (which is also what I believe--having been perfectly happy in a hetero relationship, with issue, into my late twenties and from there on perfectly happy in bi relationships--I don't think I was hardwired on anything in terms of sexual preferences; it's all been opportunity and experience based).

I don't see your examples as proving anything, but I do see you and Dyslexicea as awfully defensive about what others can believe on this issue. And when I see someone defensive like this on such an issue, I see someone fighting internally over something . . . which makes this more relevant for them than, for me who gave up fighting internally over that years ago. Now I just happily go with the flow on sexuality.
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Old 04-27-2013, 10:27 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by slyc_willie View Post
If you believe that last line, I have a bridge to sell you. Most people, in my opinion, are in the dark regarding their true sexual orientation.

If you are able, put aside your misandry for the sake of discussion.

The theory that humans are born bisexual merely indicates a basic sexual curiosity, or desire, to sample sexual and emotional relationships with members of both the same and opposite sex. Whether this is realized or not is a matter of personal preference, which is greatly influenced by the experiences every individual human goes through.

At some point, be it during our early teens or late twenties or whenever, we settle on a sexual identity. This comes about as the result of conscious or subconscious decision. We adopt a label, identifying ourselves as being straight, gay, lesbian, or bi. That label then goes on to define our orientation toward others around us.

Now, which would you prefer to believe? That sexuality is hard-wired in us all from the beginning, giving us no choice as to whom we are attracted, or that our experiences throughout our lives give us the option to select our sexual identity? Would you prefer to have no control over your sexuality, or to acknowledge that your preferences are the result of personal affirmations, and are, therefore, uniquely your own?

Bisexuality is the basic starting point. From there, we experiment, we wonder, we dream. We sample a bit of this and a bit of that, if not in practice, then in theory. And we come up with, individually, our own particular notions of who and what we are.

As far as I'm concerned, I'm in the relationship I'm in because I want to be there. I am a happily bisexual man who has chosen to devote his life to a woman. The choice was mine to make, and the realizations of my sexuality were entirely the result of my experiences. I was not 'hard-wired' to be straight; I realized, based on my experiences, that I prefer the life I share with the woman I love over all other possibilities.

Falling back on the limitations of "Nature vs. Nurture" is a cop-out. There are so many factors that go into determining any single person's sexuality that arguing one way or the other is an exercise in futility. You aren't a lesbian because you were 'made that way.' You came to a personal realization that you prefer your own sex over the other.

At least, I hope you did.

You may now resume your standard misandrist arguments.

Disagreeing that I, and others, KNOW what our orientation ALWAYS has been is not misandry, dude! (I know you like to slap at women with that word, but it doesn't fit.)

You also don't get to act all manly man and decide what other people think or feel. You can speak for YOU, not for anybody else and you sure as fuck don't have anything to back up your beliefs.

Stop being a bi-fundie asshat.
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Old 04-27-2013, 01:18 PM   #45
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Originally Posted by slyc_willie View Post
If you believe that last line, I have a bridge to sell you. Most people, in my opinion, are in the dark regarding their true sexual orientation.

If you are able, put aside your misandry for the sake of discussion.

The theory that humans are born bisexual merely indicates a basic sexual curiosity, or desire, to sample sexual and emotional relationships with members of both the same and opposite sex. Whether this is realized or not is a matter of personal preference, which is greatly influenced by the experiences every individual human goes through.

At some point, be it during our early teens or late twenties or whenever, we settle on a sexual identity. This comes about as the result of conscious or subconscious decision. We adopt a label, identifying ourselves as being straight, gay, lesbian, or bi. That label then goes on to define our orientation toward others around us.

Now, which would you prefer to believe? That sexuality is hard-wired in us all from the beginning, giving us no choice as to whom we are attracted, or that our experiences throughout our lives give us the option to select our sexual identity? Would you prefer to have no control over your sexuality, or to acknowledge that your preferences are the result of personal affirmations, and are, therefore, uniquely your own?

Bisexuality is the basic starting point. From there, we experiment, we wonder, we dream. We sample a bit of this and a bit of that, if not in practice, then in theory. And we come up with, individually, our own particular notions of who and what we are.

As far as I'm concerned, I'm in the relationship I'm in because I want to be there. I am a happily bisexual man who has chosen to devote his life to a woman. The choice was mine to make, and the realizations of my sexuality were entirely the result of my experiences. I was not 'hard-wired' to be straight; I realized, based on my experiences, that I prefer the life I share with the woman I love over all other possibilities.

Falling back on the limitations of "Nature vs. Nurture" is a cop-out. There are so many factors that go into determining any single person's sexuality that arguing one way or the other is an exercise in futility. You aren't a lesbian because you were 'made that way.' You came to a personal realization that you prefer your own sex over the other.

At least, I hope you did.

You may now resume your standard misandrist arguments.
According to the American Psychiatric Association (APA)

"The causes of sexual orientation and homosexuality are unknown. Studies have suggested both genetic and nongenetic factors. Sexual attraction (whether gay or straight), in fact, might have several origins including genetic factors for some people, environmental factors for others, or some combinations of these factors for yet others. Mental health professionals believe that sexual orientation is determined for most people early in life, or even before birth, and therefore is not chosen."

You're surely not the first person to suggest we're all born bisexual but none want to back it up with facts or studies. Can some people learn to be bisexual, of course. I think for a lot of bisexual women it's a learned behavior, let's face it girl-girl sex turns guys on. Men-men sex scares the hell out of most men. In our western culture, I should use white European culture, bisexual women have become the media darlings. The media, no matter what you or anyone else says, is controlled by men. Being this is so, it does allow women, who choose to do so, to experiment, some find they really love having sex with other women, most don't. The been there done that I don't want to do so again.

I'm not gold star, most lesbians aren't, I to have been there and done that, I don't want to do so ever again. If I'm inherently bisexual you would think I'd have no aversion to having sex with a man, societal norm. My coming out was not easy, I have the scars on my wrist to prove it. So if we are all so inherently bisexual why the hell did I ever come out. It's not a joke, I live in a world where a lot of people hate me. I live in a country that doesn't give me equal rights. I live in a country where I am 4 times more likely to have violence done to me by a stranger than women who are Black, Hispanic, Muslin or Jewish, not to mention 7 or 8 times more likely than Caucasian women, gay men have it even worse. I could go on. Tell me why if my innate sexual nature is bisexual why would I or anyone else choose to be lesbian/gay.

The truth is, if bisexual is how we are all born it would be the norm, not heterosexual. If we'd have evolved bisexual no one ever would have questioned being bisexual. Societies would have formed as bisexual societies. Societies do not go against what is inherently natural. The discrimination would have been to heteros lesbians and gays. But the evolutionary norm is heterosexual and that is why those of us who don't fit the norm, have been and still are discriminated against.
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Old 04-27-2013, 02:43 PM   #46
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Actually youre an extinct dinosaur.

The first mental health center that hired me placed me in a department that was all females but me, and I got the full measure of their malice toward males. And when I had enough of it I reminded them that I was the only one present with kids, and all their marvels and wonders would die with them. I now have 10 grandkids. And they still have zero kids.

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Old 04-27-2013, 02:44 PM   #47
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Asexuality, bisexuality, heterosexuality, and homosexuality as traditionally understood are behaviorally indicated. However, the issue is sexual attraction. A woman or man that is married to an opposite-sex spouse but is not actually sexually attracted to them is probably not heterosexual. If he or she has to be physically stimulated, fantasize about individuals that are the same same sex to be aroused, or be in a sexual situation with someone of the same sex to be physically aroused, then there's a high probability that he or she is actually homosexual, regardless of years of intercourse with someone of the opposite sex. However, if the individual can be aroused in one-on-one sexual situations with or sexually attracted to someone of the opposite sex and same sex, then they are probably bisexual.

Current scientific studies indicate that individuals are born with their sexual orientation. The neurological structures responsible for sexual orientation form before the final trimester.

Quote:
Sexual hormones and the brain: an essential alliance for sexual identity and sexual orientation.
Garcia-Falgueras A, Swaab DF.

Netherlands Institute for Neuroscience, Amsterdam, The Netherlands.

Abstract
The fetal brain develops during the intrauterine period in the male direction through a direct action of testosterone on the developing nerve cells, or in the female direction through the absence of this hormone surge. In this way, our gender identity (the conviction of belonging to the male or female gender) and sexual orientation are programmed or organized into our brain structures when we are still in the womb. However, since sexual differentiation of the genitals takes place in the first two months of pregnancy and sexual differentiation of the brain starts in the second half of pregnancy, these two processes can be influenced independently, which may result in extreme cases in trans-sexuality. This also means that in the event of ambiguous sex at birth, the degree of masculinization of the genitals may not reflect the degree of masculinization of the brain. There is no indication that social environment after birth has an effect on gender identity or sexual orientation.
That said, prior to seven years of age there is neurological flexibility sufficient to imprint sexual behavior or paraphilia. So sexual association contrary or irrespective of neurological sexual orientation can certainly develop and cause seemingly contradictory behavior, particularly amongst sexual abuse victims under seven years of age.

Additionally, there is the issue of labels versus actual orientation. In a longitudinal (long term) study by Diamond and others, it was found that women were inclined to change labels based upon the gender of their current partner, not whether they felt sexual attraction to men and/or women. Thus they found women that indicated that they felt attraction to both men and women, but changing their label from "homosexual" to "heterosexual" or vice versus, instead of adopting and keeping the more accurate label of "bisexual".

A person cannot "turn" gay, straight, or bisexual. Their state is fixed. As indicated by studies by Swaab and others, the neurological structure responsible for gender preference does not change. (There have been case studies where traumatic brain injuries, caused by accidents or strokes, have changed sexual behavior.) However, individuals may very well engage in whatever behavior they choose, for whatever reason they might have. So two heterosexual young women might very well choose to kiss one in front of onlookers at a Spring Break party, because they seek the attention or wishes to sexually arouse the young men. A homosexual man might choose to marry and have sex with a woman because he wishes to have children and a "normal" family like his parents. Or a bisexual woman might call herself a "lesbian" because her long-term partner is a woman, despite the fact that she regularly cheats on her with a male lover. And a heterosexual woman might consider herself "asexual" because a childhood trauma caused her to reject any sort of sexuality.

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Old 04-27-2013, 02:57 PM   #48
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Old 04-27-2013, 03:56 PM   #49
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I have always described myself as bi-sexual as I have had wonderful sex with men and women and never realy thought about it much
now I describe myself as a people person as there are some men and women that repulse me, I find myself attracted to the person not the sex more the persoanality
I even confuse myself sometimes
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Old 04-28-2013, 01:40 PM   #50
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Cool What we sexually enjoy vs. what gender we enjoy

Quote:
Originally Posted by BuckyDuckman View Post
c) I don't believe I'm confusing bisexual with bi-curious. I do, however, find where and how you choose to draw the lines curious.
Actually, I think what you are confusing is bi-sexuality with personal sexual turn-ons and turn-offs. If a woman who only dates men hates sucking cock, we don't go around arguing that she's not heterosexual. Likewise, if--as noted--a gent enjoys sucking cock but not kissing men, I don't think that makes him any less "bi-sexual."

And if what the bi-sexual person sexually enjoys most happens to belong to female anatomy over male anatomy, then they might be more inclined towards women. Not because they're heterosexual or lesbian, but just because the females can give them the sexual treat they like best.

None of which, of course, brings in mental/emotional connections which I believe we should leave out. On that score, we love whom we love, whether we can have a good sexual relationship with them or not.
Quote:
Originally Posted by slyc_willie View Post
Now, which would you prefer to believe? That sexuality is hard-wired in us all from the beginning, giving us no choice as to whom we are attracted, or that our experiences throughout our lives give us the option to select our sexual identity?
I'm afraid, Slyc, that I have to chime in with others on this. I knew what color my eyes were when I was a child and no matter how much I wanted to believe they'd change...they didn't and they weren't going to. I did not have a choice in the matter. No more than I had a choice being right-handed (though I could have been forced to use the left--I still would have been right-handed). And though I had a choice of what I wanted to "be," I didn't really have much of a choice in what I was good at or what my interests were. I couldn't make myself into a brilliant and natural mathematician (believe me, I tried) as much as I wanted very much to go into the sciences and needed to be good at math. I just didn't have a choice there. I sucked at math--but I was naturally good with words. So that's where I had to go--not much choice there--but I had a wide range of choice when it came to jobs that required a good word smith.

Whatever you want to believe, the truth is that a LOT of who and what we are IS hardwired into us from the beginning. Which doesn't mean we have no choice--but it does mean we have limited choices. Almost universally, homosexuals insist that they knew their sexual orientation by age five. And they couldn't change it, and all the experiences they had in their pre-teens and teens doesn't alter what they knew at age five.

I think what we're back to is the confusion I mentioned to Bucky. Our personal taste in what we enjoy sexually can be chosen and/or molded. But our orientation cannot. In 1972 scientists stimulated a gay man's pleasure centers while showing him stag films--these pleasure centers feel so good and are so addictive, rats will endure electric shocks to get them. Though the man was, afterwards, able to have sex with hooker (i.e. able to re-live to some small extent the pleasure he'd felt when his pleasure centers were stimulated with heterosexual sex), he never stopped having gay sex. Thus, we can be trained to find pleasure in certain sexual activities--sucking cock or being anally penetrated. But that doesn't mean our actual orientation (however hetero, bi or gay) can be chosen or re-aligned. In that, we really have no choice.
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