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Old 04-06-2013, 10:26 PM   #126
sr71plt
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Originally Posted by Stella_Omega View Post
I'll be damned if I can figure out why my opinions have so much moral force for you, that you have to kick at my shins like a little kid being told to wash his hands.

I suppose it's a compliment in a way. Something strikes a note?

Or else, you've just paid too much attention to me for your own good. I should not be this important to you.
That wasn't a reaction specifically to you. It was a reaction to this frequent posting of threads here telling us how to write to meet the specific (often moralistic, frequently tunnel-vision limp-wrested female, and overly sensitive--I get a vision of Sandy Dennis blowing those "I'm overwhelmed and have somehow found myself in the wrong house" bubbles in Who's Afraid of Virginia Wolfe) expectation of a specific reader.

I posted to your comment because you chose to take only one aspect of what Althia posted--the "what should be written for the morality-driven female perspective" part. You've posted that before--that you can't write an erotic story without taking the threat of the North Korean missiles into account. You can't let a reader just choose to filter out all of the "what could happen and who is opposing abortion today" nasty stuff out and enjoy the fantasy of focused sexual arousal.

And my post was a reaction to what I see going through this thread (and weekly similiar threads) on an inability to separate arousal-producing fantasy from reality. The gay males I write GM stories for (even though I do often include condoms) are capable of separating fantasy arousal from reality and to take responsibility for their reading without whining on the boards about how stories should be written here to keep them from having the vapors (I haven't read a single post from a claimed GM whining this way--I've read posts from a legion of claimed female readers wanting everything tailored just for them). I'm sure others read my stories, which is fine, but they aren't who I'm writing for, and thus I don't feel any responsibility to tailor my writing to their delicate sensitivities. And just as it's any poster's privilege to post about what they want to read in stories, it's my privilege to tell them to grow up and take responsibility for their reading and to be irritated with them when they don't seem to be adult enough just to not read what would upset their fluttery stomachs and their sense of social correctness--and to leave space here for those of other interests to enjoy themselves.
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Old 04-06-2013, 10:53 PM   #127
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Well I admit that there are some writing choices that writers make that I can't help but feel a personal impact from, like fetishising minorities, or homophobic beatings, or calling every single woman in the story a whore. I personally wish men didn't get off on that stuff, especially when I see it in real life as well.

I hardly think that the impact of a fictional guy making the choice to roll on a fictional rubber is so insulting to your sensibilities that you have to attack the threads where people talk about ways to incorporate that in their fiction. But if it is, it is.

And of course that adult decision about reading? You can hardly blame other people for not making it on your behalf.
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Old 04-06-2013, 11:02 PM   #128
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--oh, nevermind--
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Old 04-06-2013, 11:24 PM   #129
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Pilot, did you ever think that these threads were started by people who don't give a fuck about GM stories?

That they are written by people who care about being more realistic? That some recognize that AIDs and STDs are a significant health issue and want their stories to address these modern FACTS.

Not to mention those who are attempting to prevent their overly enthusiastic readers from experiencing the heartbreak of rejection, because they don't have protection in their pocket, because "they never use condoms in the porn they read."

Or are you just making another mountain out of a molehill?
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Old 04-06-2013, 11:39 PM   #130
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Pilot, did you ever think that these threads were started by people who don't give a fuck about GM stories?
No, there was no reason for me to think in those limited terms. I have written in 21 categories here and probably have more straight stories on Lit. than nearly everyone writing to this thread. GM may have been examples I posted from, but my points aren't limited to that category.

So, that's just irrelevant to what I'm thinking about this thread. And what I'm thinking now is "why bother?" None of this is going to affect or control what I write.
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Old 04-06-2013, 11:56 PM   #131
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So, that's just irrelevant to what I'm thinking about this thread. And what I'm thinking now is "why bother?" None of this is going to affect or control what I write.
Bravo, Pilot! Good form.
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Old 04-07-2013, 02:08 AM   #132
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I've never met a gay male who indicated that condoms would be part of a fantasy for him . . .
Note: this was taken out of context. But I find the basic statement intriguing.

As a bisexual male, before I met my wife I played around fairly heavily with other men. I would have to say that my ratio of male to female lovers was pretty much even for a good number of years.

Now, I have practically never used a condom. In hindsight, that policy was dangerous, to be sure. But I've never contracted any sort of STD in my life. I've been tested many, many times and have always come out clean. With my female lovers, it was never much of an issue, although it seems to me that it should have been. Maybe I just knew how to pick 'em, or maybe they thought I was LTR material and could therefore trust me.

With my male lovers . . . the dynamic was a bit different. Condoms were a definite no-no when it came to oral sex. Okay, cool; I'm fine with that. I've never liked the taste of latex. But when it came to anal sex, they were either fiercely pro or con about condoms. Now, I haven't done that often, and I've never been a "catcher." On the few occasions I went that far, I was always a top.

Here's the kicker: those three guys I've topped were all ones who insisted -- or with whom I agreed beforehand -- that I wear a condom. Personally, I felt more comfortable about it when a condom was involved. The others who I could have topped were all very adamant that we go bareback. I would say they outnumbered those who wanted condoms by 5 to 1. If it wasn't skin on skin, it wasn't going in, they would say (well, only one said that, but the rhyme's stayed with me). If I didn't acquiesce, we didn't go any further. I never went further with them.

I wondered about such a stringent insistence to go bareback for a while until I spoke to several gay friends of mine. As strange, silly, or crude as it sounds, this insistence to go bareback comes down to, well, cum. They want to feel it inside them, oozing out, whatever. A few gay friends have gone as far as to explain that bareback sex makes them feel more feminine, more "real."

So maybe that, in a roundabout way, helps explain why the use of condoms in a GM story would be detrimental to the fantasy.

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Old 04-07-2013, 02:56 AM   #133
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Thank you. That is so well stated.

I agree with Stella, I thought Athalia put a good point across very well.

And Pilot, I agree with you too, actually. I am totally fine with people writing fantasy stories that don't mention condoms or even that specifically enjoy not having condoms so they can have cum or pregnancies. Of course there are people who enjoy those fantasies and would find a condom popping up in the middle of them a turn-off. As a matter of fact I often enjoy those fantasies myself.

I'll just restate my position here (AGAIN! zzzzz). I started this thread to help me write a blogpost about this topic on the companion blog to my review site. On my review site, I review stories which are safe sex only. The reason for this is, that I've been doing some work on Sex and Relationships Education in an area of the world with abnormally high teenage pregnancy rates. I realised that the SRE available may teach young people how to put a condom on a banana, but it doesn't teach them to have to the respect and confidence to insist on their sexual partner using a condom if that's what they would like. I felt that some stories which normalised condom usage might be a helpful part of that education. Oh yes, this is a political project but it is a very small part of the world of erotica, and I would hope that people for whom freedom of speech is important would be willing to allow it a little house room. It's kinda hard to go out and about enjoying good sexual experiences if you're a teenager who's stuck at home with a baby, or - as in one case I heard of, if you got HIV/AIDS from your first boyfriend who was too ashamed to admit to you he was positive and consider using a condom.

I don't think it matters if the gay men's fiction I admire is written by men or women, the principle remains. Gay men friends say to me that they expect condoms to pop up in stories because they recognise how important it is, but of course there are gay men like yourself who may not want to cover as a lover.

BTW, there is a spam thread at last. I will go and put pancakes in there for you. You can eat them safely without having to be irritated by opinions on condom usage, LOL.

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Old 04-07-2013, 03:43 AM   #134
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Willie - I just popped back to say thank you for your frank and upfront contribution, which gives a clear picture of how different folks call for different strokes - in condom usage as in other matters.
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Old 04-07-2013, 04:07 AM   #135
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Willie - I just popped back to say thank you for your frank and upfront contribution, which gives a clear picture of how different folks call for different strokes - in condom usage as in other matters.
To be honest, I didn't think what I wrote was at all as clear as I wanted it to be. It's just the results of my observations, and not at all meant to be indicative of the norm. But from what I've experienced in my life, the use of a condom, for whatever reasons, even in the age of frighteningly deadly STDs, remains sub-standard. I've come to think there is a multi-cultural backlash against them, a sort of ridiculous "I'm invulnerable" feeling which I myself have indulged in.

I'm just glad it never came back to bite me on the ass.
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Old 04-07-2013, 04:15 AM   #136
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To be honest, I didn't think what I wrote was at all as clear as I wanted it to be. It's just the results of my observations, and not at all meant to be indicative of the norm. But from what I've experienced in my life, the use of a condom, for whatever reasons, even in the age of frighteningly deadly STDs, remains sub-standard. I've come to think there is a multi-cultural backlash against them, a sort of ridiculous "I'm invulnerable" feeling which I myself have indulged in.

I'm just glad it never came back to bite me on the ass.
I'm glad too, sweet pea.

I'm just saving up now to try and visit one of my best pals in Australia before he dies of complications to AIDS/HIV, so I am very glad you will still be around for a while. (I mean, he will be around for a couple of years I think but it's a lot of money to get to Australia so I better start putting the pennies in a jar.)

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Old 04-07-2013, 01:26 PM   #137
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Here's the kicker: those three guys I've topped were all ones who insisted -- or with whom I agreed beforehand -- that I wear a condom.
Well, yes, in real life. The issue here though is in the stories they want to read to obtain maximum arousal. (Which agrees with your last line, although I can't see how you got to the last line from what went before.)
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Old 04-07-2013, 04:07 PM   #138
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Well, yes, in real life. The issue here though is in the stories they want to read to obtain maximum arousal. (Which agrees with your last line, although I can't see how you got to the last line from what went before.)
yes, and we have established that many people do not achieve maximum arousal if condoms are present in their reading material.

So it's a good thing that you are there for them. They don't have to read anything they don't want to.
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Old 04-07-2013, 04:22 PM   #139
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yes, and we have established that many people do not achieve maximum arousal if condoms are present in their reading material.

So it's a good thing that you are there for them. They don't have to read anything they don't want to.
I think this is an appropriate place to toss something you posted back at you.

I'll be damned if I can figure out why my opinions have so much moral force for you, that you have to kick at my shins like a little kid being told to wash his hands.

I suppose it's a compliment in a way. Something strikes a note?

Or else, you've just paid too much attention to me for your own good. I should not be this important to you.


You haven't bothered to read any of my stories have you? I'm not pushing only writing stories where condoms aren't used. I use condoms in most of my stories. I am pushing people to mind their own damn business, to gravitate to what turns them on/what brings them enjoyment, and to let others enjoy the different varieties of writing that they enjoy.

I've yet to see anyone post an "I don't like stories that have condoms" thread here--it's just the moralizers (which is really kicky on a porn site) trying to tell everyone else what to write.

Just a zealous little bull dog, aren't you? Of course you don't contribute much of anything here in the way of stories--you just enjoy telling others what they can think.
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Old 04-07-2013, 05:43 PM   #140
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Yeah, I will be damned why you react so strongly to my posts. It's weird.
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Old 04-07-2013, 05:47 PM   #141
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Yeah, I will be damned why you react so strongly to my posts. It's weird.
You're being disingenuous, of course. It's part of your harassing Internet technique.
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Old 04-07-2013, 05:50 PM   #142
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BTW, there is a spam thread at last. I will go and put pancakes in there for you. You can eat them safely without having to be irritated by opinions on condom usage, LOL.

I didn't find the thread. And I'm in the mood for pancakes.
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Old 04-07-2013, 05:52 PM   #143
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I didn't find the thread. And I'm in the mood for pancakes.
Oh dahlink, I am so dreadfully sorry. The Lacoste shirt spam thread appears to have been taken down. I'm very sad because I'd found a magnificent diagram on how to butcher a werewolf, after Lovecraft said he didn't want unicorn or crocodile steaks but did fancy a werewolf steak. (I think he was having a little dig, really, .)

Here you are, with orange juice - very healthy.

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Old 04-07-2013, 05:58 PM   #144
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Oh dahlink, I am so dreadfully sorry. The Lacoste shirt spam thread appears to have been taken down. I'm very sad because I'd found a magnificent diagram on how to butcher a werewolf, after Lovecraft said he didn't want unicorn or crocodile steaks but did fancy a werewolf steak. (I think he was having a little dig, really, .)

Here you are, with orange juice - very healthy.

Did you take the condom off the werewolf before you butchered it?

Breakfast looks great, thanks. (Can't do the orange juice, though. Diabetic. It's all glucose-loaded carbs.)
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Old 04-07-2013, 06:02 PM   #145
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Did you take the condom off the werewolf before you butchered it?

Breakfast looks great, thanks. (Can't do the orange juice, though. Diabetic. It's all glucose-loaded carbs.)
So sorry, coffee with cream and splenda instead?

I butchered him very safely, of course. Here he is, you can see how little he's enjoying being carved up. The bad thing, he doesn't seem to have the little packet from the condom clutched in his claws so he obviously deserves what's coming to him.

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Old 04-07-2013, 06:23 PM   #146
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So sorry, coffee with cream and splenda instead?
You read my mind. (shouldn't have the cream, but, what can I say, I've lived much of my life in former British colonies.)

I laughed at the werewolf diagram.
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Old 04-07-2013, 06:57 PM   #147
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You're being disingenuous, of course. It's part of your harassing Internet technique.
I guess if you name me enough ways, somehow, some of that will come true. It's your special magic.
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Old 04-08-2013, 03:05 AM   #148
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You read my mind. (shouldn't have the cream, but, what can I say, I've lived much of my life in former British colonies.)

I laughed at the werewolf diagram.
I was very pleased when I found it.

Stella - I have that hat too! My brother bought it for me when he was working in Swaziland just after the South Africa World Cup. I love that hat.
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