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Old 04-06-2013, 02:45 AM   #276
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroin View Post
Humans are social animals, with tribal tendencies. When you're on the outside, it's a clique. When you're on the inside, it's just a group of like-minded friends or acquaintances.

You, (general 'you') have to decide what you want out of an online community. In the past, I've caught myself getting wound up in arguments here and feeling hurt. Like ITW said, however, usually when I go back and read over what was written, I'm left wondering what made me so angry or upset.

I actually enjoy the heated debates now. Having people like Stella, Netz, Homburg, JM, and others, around has made me refine my ideas and the way I present them. Engaging in that level of sharp, unflinching debate has made me better at presenting solid arguments in real life. A good skill to develop.

But if you're just coming here for fun and laughs, then avoid the arguments. It's easy to walk away from an online fight. It comes down to knowing what you want.
Well, put. However, the point still is on enjoying yourself. If you [general you] don't enjoy the arguments either stay out of them or don't come here anymore.
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Old 04-06-2013, 04:07 AM   #277
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Why are you supposed to remove blue m&m's?
Some rock band was famous for it-- but that was long before blue M&Ms were happening as I recall.
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Old 04-06-2013, 04:13 AM   #278
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Some rock band was famous for it-- but that was long before blue M&Ms were happening as I recall.

It was Van Halen and they used to take all the brown ones out.

The blue ones are supposedly bad for you because of something in the food dye they use. Or used to use. Not sure if they're still using the same kind.
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Old 04-06-2013, 05:21 AM   #279
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teknight liked poking at people. I don't even remember that thread but my vague recollection of him is like a kid running in to the room and going 'nyah nyah' and then getting bored and yelling, oh whatever, didn't mean it.

My experience feeling hurt or riled up on the internet -- sometimes on these forums it's easy to perceive things a certain way and just kind of run with it in your mind. I've gone back later and sometimes realized I completely misread the other person, expressed myself incorrectly or even thought someone said something that was never even said.

On the other side - I've just noticed a pattern in the posts of those expressing their hurt feelings or offense (not just in this thread - I'm also reminded of the recent exchange about guns in the political thread). It's always (1) my argument is X (2) in response to others addressing the points raised in X, hurt poster says, you just don't get me, so forget it, why do I bother, and then (3) others explain their argument again and in more detail, to which hurt poster replies oh sure, put words in my fucking mouth, that's just great, fuck you!

I'm tired of arguing with people and then having to navigate their freak out. Seriously, meet me halfway, try and understand my point.
And yet, I thought that was exactly what we were doing, trying to understand each other's points and meeting everyone halfway.

Sometimes y'all aren't asking for halfway, you're asking for 80% of the way, and that's not really what I'd call fair. If I'm explaining myself and not being "heard" and y'all are explaining yourselves and not feeling heard, there is a fundamental disconnect somewhere that can't be traversed no matter what. What's the point then of continuining the conversation, especially when there are hurt feelings involved? Some people have to know when to leave and bow out. Why is that suddenly a problem? Did you want me to stay while I was mad and continue feeling like I was being shamed and disrespected, because that's not "coming halfway" at all. Beyond everything, this is supposed to be my me time, and I'm not going to participate if I'm not happy. If that makes YOU unhappy, I can't do anything about that.

I didn't ask a single person to "navigate my freakout", I left to go chill out. I handled it, so I think that's a little unfair.

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Well, put. However, the point still is on enjoying yourself. If you [general you] don't enjoy the arguments either stay out of them or don't come here anymore.
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Old 04-06-2013, 10:42 AM   #280
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Hmmm. Well, if I can just get all am-therapist for a second, maybe what you, Satin, and ITW are describing is a lack of mirroring. Maybe it's the nature of a message board format, or maybe it's the subject matter, with supersized emotions. There often isn't that post that goes, "okay, what I hear you saying is X. Is that right?"

I don't do that very well myself. I state my opinion and then bolt, partly because of time constraints, but also because it's more fun, because it's my opinion, dammit.

What do you think of that, he asks, mirroringly?
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Old 04-06-2013, 10:51 AM   #281
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Originally Posted by DeepGreenEyes View Post
Hmmm.

I don't do that very well myself. I state my opinion and then bolt, partly because of time constraints, but also because it's more fun, because it's my opinion, dammit.

What do you think of that, he asks, mirroringly?
My opinion is you're wrong *and leaves*!!!
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Old 04-06-2013, 12:38 PM   #282
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You're making my day here, woman! Have you been to the show?
No - I would love to but I'm too much of a cheap-ass.


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Originally Posted by graceanne View Post
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. People supposedly get online to unwind, to de-stress and to enjoy themselves. The moment it becomes stressful and not fun then it's time to LEAVE. This has nothing to do with not wanting anyone here or as a personal attack. If it's not fun and rewarding to come to Lit (or any other place online), then WHY are you doing it? I mean, I know this is a board full of masochists, but ... really?

You know what the definition of insanity is? Doing the same thing over and over, and expecting different results. If every time you log on you leave mad, stressed out, and unhappy, why would the next time be different? And it's not like you can't come back if you get into a different head space.
Not actually referring to Lit folks but lots of people must love going to the internet to get all wound up and unleash their fury. Sometimes I read the comments on political articles and damn that stuff is just vile.

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Originally Posted by satindesire View Post
And yet, I thought that was exactly what we were doing, trying to understand each other's points and meeting everyone halfway.

Sometimes y'all aren't asking for halfway, you're asking for 80% of the way, and that's not really what I'd call fair. If I'm explaining myself and not being "heard" and y'all are explaining yourselves and not feeling heard, there is a fundamental disconnect somewhere that can't be traversed no matter what. What's the point then of continuining the conversation, especially when there are hurt feelings involved? Some people have to know when to leave and bow out. Why is that suddenly a problem? Did you want me to stay while I was mad and continue feeling like I was being shamed and disrespected, because that's not "coming halfway" at all. Beyond everything, this is supposed to be my me time, and I'm not going to participate if I'm not happy. If that makes YOU unhappy, I can't do anything about that.

I didn't ask a single person to "navigate my freakout", I left to go chill out. I handled it, so I think that's a little unfair.



QFT.
By meeting me halfway, I don't actually mean agree with me. And I think it's entirely reasonable to bow out of the conversation.

I just tend to get this sense that there is no way to disagree with someone without having them say it's an attack. I'm not just or even mostly talking about you though.
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Old 04-06-2013, 12:43 PM   #283
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Originally Posted by Stag of Oberon View Post
yes. the people who have not yet joined this forum, who might let their first post be in a thread like this one, should be forewarned;

LITEROTICA IS NO PLACE FOR YOUR FAITH, whatever that may be.
Interesting. I went back this morning and read quite a bit of that thread over tea. I enjoyed that conversation. Tek was...being Tek. No surprise there, he liked to stir the pot. But aside from him, there were some really wonderful, and mutually respectful, discussions of belief that kind of morphed into other topics.

Those are actually the threads I miss - where people come to the table with a wide range of views and then debate them passionately. Homburg was always fun for that.
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Old 04-06-2013, 01:55 PM   #284
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Originally Posted by satindesire View Post
And yet, I thought that was exactly what we were doing, trying to understand each other's points and meeting everyone halfway.

Sometimes y'all aren't asking for halfway, you're asking for 80% of the way, and that's not really what I'd call fair. If I'm explaining myself and not being "heard" and y'all are explaining yourselves and not feeling heard, there is a fundamental disconnect somewhere that can't be traversed no matter what. What's the point then of continuining the conversation, especially when there are hurt feelings involved? Some people have to know when to leave and bow out. Why is that suddenly a problem? Did you want me to stay while I was mad and continue feeling like I was being shamed and disrespected, because that's not "coming halfway" at all. Beyond everything, this is supposed to be my me time, and I'm not going to participate if I'm not happy. If that makes YOU unhappy, I can't do anything about that.

I didn't ask a single person to "navigate my freakout", I left to go chill out. I handled it, so I think that's a little unfair.



QFT.
I'm with DeepGreenEyes, what you are asking for is mirroring. And so do I -- so do we all.

It's pretty hard to come by on the internet. It's almost never a place to get validation. We seize the merest crumbs.

But no amount of mirroring can make "You have to give me cookies because I say religion is sorry if it ever hurt you but it's not so bad now and you have to be patient and wait for religion to someday make things a little more better for you" into an okay thing to say. Not ever. Not even in the middle of claiming that you understand.

The disagreement, the disrespect, the shaming you say you feel -- are very specific to this particular subject. The other times I've been this frustrated with you have been the same topic, for the same reason.
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Old 04-06-2013, 02:18 PM   #285
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No - I would love to but I'm too much of a cheap-ass.
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Old 04-06-2013, 03:33 PM   #286
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Quote:
Originally Posted by knot_sweet View Post
It was Van Halen and they used to take all the brown ones out.
Ok .... WHY?


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Originally Posted by intothewoods View Post
Not actually referring to Lit folks but lots of people must love going to the internet to get all wound up and unleash their fury. Sometimes I read the comments on political articles and damn that stuff is just vile.
True enough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stag of Oberon View Post

LITEROTICA IS NO PLACE FOR YOUR FAITH,
Really? Wow, who died and made you the ruler of lit who gets to decide the rules? Last I checked this is a free speech forum, and we get to talk about whatever the fuck we want. And I will, and if you don't like it put me on ignore. From what I've seen of you in this thread, I doubt I'll notice.
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Old 04-06-2013, 03:34 PM   #287
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Those are actually the threads I miss - where people come to the table with a wide range of views and then debate them passionately. Homburg was always fun for that.
Actually I love a debate. When I leave is when someone starts belittling what I say or getting mad at what I say.
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Old 04-06-2013, 04:09 PM   #288
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Really? Wow, who died and made you the ruler of lit who gets to decide the rules? Last I checked this is a free speech forum, and we get to talk about whatever the fuck we want. And I will, and if you don't like it put me on ignore. From what I've seen of you in this thread, I doubt I'll notice.
I think Stag was being sarcastic, there. Trying to say that this is the attitude the non-believers of Lit try to put forth in threads involving religion. I don't think that's how he feels.

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Actually I love a debate. When I leave is when someone starts belittling what I say or getting mad at what I say.
That's understandable. It's difficult, in this kind of setting, to ensure that debates are fair and don't degenerate into personal attacks. I try to ignore those folks, if I feel the rest of the conversation is worth having. But, you're right, if it gets to be too much, it's best to simply walk away.
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Old 04-06-2013, 04:39 PM   #289
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Can I just interject one thing? I find that especially with the topic of religion people tend to hear a person's faith and then leap to a conclusion that might not be true.

Or (referencing DeepGreenEyes point of mirroring and asking questions) they tend to ask the "wrong" question, in that it is a question that does not elicit the information they are seeking.

I have experienced this a lot in debates over religion. People will ask what my beliefs are, whether I think something is a sin, etc. And then use my answer to get upset or argue with me. If you ask me what my belief is I will share it with you, but there have been times when what someone is really wondering is if I use my beliefs to judge others. To my way of thinking those are two separate questions.

Does any of that make sense? Or should I retreat back to my corner? [laughs]
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Old 04-06-2013, 04:59 PM   #290
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rad - thank you!
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Old 04-06-2013, 05:19 PM   #291
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A very long time ago a group of men sat down and pulled together all the pieces of the stories men had been telling since humans feared the coming of night and rewarded the high priests who alone controlled the return of the sun. The so compiled stories men called the "word of GOD."

As time passed the "wisest" of men took responsibility of the book of "the word of GOD", msking whatever changes were necessary to ensure their power and support. To this end, these men wrote for GOD that females, in part because they were less than holy every 24 or so days, were less than men. When this was seen to go over very well they added and modified stories about everything to show GOD put men in charge of everything. Men had only to keep the wise men happy to retain control of "everything."

In modern times men have fallen off thier asses, struck their heads and awakened with the further words of GOD in his mind.

From all this was born religion. From the one religion split off many, all stating what was wrong with the path from which they had departed.

Are we arguing the validity of the word of GOD? What validity? When did GOD take pen (or hammer) in hand and write (chisel) his words?
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Old 04-06-2013, 05:50 PM   #292
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Can I just interject one thing? I find that especially with the topic of religion people tend to hear a person's faith and then leap to a conclusion that might not be true.

Or (referencing DeepGreenEyes point of mirroring and asking questions) they tend to ask the "wrong" question, in that it is a question that does not elicit the information they are seeking.

I have experienced this a lot in debates over religion. People will ask what my beliefs are, whether I think something is a sin, etc. And then use my answer to get upset or argue with me. If you ask me what my belief is I will share it with you, but there have been times when what someone is really wondering is if I use my beliefs to judge others. To my way of thinking those are two separate questions.

Does any of that make sense? Or should I retreat back to my corner? [laughs]
That's exactly it. I often assume that someone will judge me by their beliefs. And people have obviously assumed that my statement of my beliefs is a judgement on them.

That's the problem with belief. It doesn't requite corroboration.
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Old 04-06-2013, 07:06 PM   #293
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rad
Of such words are generational chasms formed!
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Old 04-06-2013, 07:19 PM   #294
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That's exactly it. I often assume that someone will judge me by their beliefs. And people have obviously assumed that my statement of my beliefs is a judgement on them.

That's the problem with belief. It doesn't requite corroboration.
[laughs]

To my mind, there is a follow up question that is never asked. "Do you care if I...?"

I might believe what they are doing is a "sin", but I really don't care nor do I judge them for it. I have my own "sins" to worry about. My motto is that you will account for your "sins" whenever you meet your Creator/Deity/Whatever and I will account for mine when I do. You worry about yours and I will worry about mine. Meanwhile, let's have a glass of wine and enjoy that we don't have to be held accountable just yet.
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Old 04-06-2013, 07:37 PM   #295
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Ok .... WHY?




True enough.



Really? Wow, who died and made you the ruler of lit who gets to decide the rules? Last I checked this is a free speech forum, and we get to talk about whatever the fuck we want. And I will, and if you don't like it put me on ignore. From what I've seen of you in this thread, I doubt I'll notice.
The Brown MM thing wasn't quite the jerk off rock star act you might think. Brown MM's aren't bad (well, any more or less than the other ones), Van Halen did that to make sure that the promoter took seriously their contract with the band. It isn't stupid, in that by making them focus on a tiny detail, it tells the promoter they pay attention (the band), and will notice if the promoter tries to screw them on the big things. Among which, Van Halen used pyrotechnics, and if a promoter couldn't follow through on something like that, what would they do with the big things, like a flying line?

There is a famous case study on organizational behavior, called the Hawthorne study, it was at a coal gas works back in the 19th century. The managers experimented with making the light brighter, efficiency went up, they made it dimmer, it went up, they re-arranged the work space, efficiency went up..and what they figured out it wasn't so much what they did, it was the fact that someone was paying attention. By specifying something as trivial as no brown MM's, it told the promoter the band was paying attention..fucking brilliant from a band you would figure didn't have much brain cells left after the drugs and booze
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Old 04-06-2013, 08:00 PM   #296
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[laughs]

To my mind, there is a follow up question that is never asked. "Do you care if I...?"

I might believe what they are doing is a "sin", but I really don't care nor do I judge them for it. I have my own "sins" to worry about. My motto is that you will account for your "sins" whenever you meet your Creator/Deity/Whatever and I will account for mine when I do. You worry about yours and I will worry about mine. Meanwhile, let's have a glass of wine and enjoy that we don't have to be held accountable just yet.
I have a hard time understanding the "sin" thing as it applies to other people.

I judge myself rather harshly, but I tend to leave other people alone. They're on their path, and I'm on mine. My own personal belief is that many things commonly referred to as "sins" stem from a place of ignorance (and then there are those "sins" that don't seem to hurt anyone, so I'm not sure why they should count, but that's beside the point).

Yes, there is certainly evil in the world; I'm not going to deny that. But unless I'm on jury duty, it's not really my place to judge. It's my place to try to stop something harmful from happening to someone else if I can, but to sit back and point fingers after something has already been done? Not very productive. Try to prevent it from happening again? Yes, let's do that. Sit around and bitch because it happened in the first place without trying to fix anything? Useless.

I'm guilty of it, of course. We all are. But I'm trying very hard not to do it. Plus, I think humans are supremely arrogant for thinking that they can understand the mind of God. It may be possible that we can get glimpses, but I think that's it.
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Old 04-06-2013, 08:24 PM   #297
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I have a hard time understanding the "sin" thing as it applies to other people.

I judge myself rather harshly, but I tend to leave other people alone. They're on their path, and I'm on mine. My own personal belief is that many things commonly referred to as "sins" stem from a place of ignorance (and then there are those "sins" that don't seem to hurt anyone, so I'm not sure why they should count, but that's beside the point).

Yes, there is certainly evil in the world; I'm not going to deny that. But unless I'm on jury duty, it's not really my place to judge. It's my place to try to stop something harmful from happening to someone else if I can, but to sit back and point fingers after something has already been done? Not very productive. Try to prevent it from happening again? Yes, let's do that. Sit around and bitch because it happened in the first place without trying to fix anything? Useless.

I'm guilty of it, of course. We all are. But I'm trying very hard not to do it. Plus, I think humans are supremely arrogant for thinking that they can understand the mind of God. It may be possible that we can get glimpses, but I think that's it.
I'm not sure if the bolded section was in response to what I posted but I figured I would explain my thinking. According to my faith there are things one is supposed to do and things one isn't supposed to do ~ the "rules" I guess you could say. Breaking the rules or not doing what you are supposed to do is a sin. And I actually do get that and believe it.

But now that being said, considering I break the "rules" all the time, I really don't concern myself with if other people are doing the same. So I break "rules" #3, 7, & 9 and someone else breaks "rules" #2, 5, & 6. Fine, when I get to judgment I will account my "bad behavior" and everyone else can account for their own.

Plus, I think humans are supremely arrogant for thinking that they can understand the mind of God. It may be possible that we can get glimpses, but I think that's it.

This made me laugh. Growing up whenever I pestered my father with too many questions of why God did or did not do something, the answer was always "I don't know. Ask him when you meet him."
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Old 04-06-2013, 08:37 PM   #298
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Originally Posted by blulilacgrl View Post
I'm not sure if the bolded section was in response to what I posted but I figured I would explain my thinking.
I was kinda thinking out loud and just quoted you to provide context, so it didn't look like it came completely out of left field. But I like hearing your perspective, anyhow.

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Originally Posted by blulilacgrl View Post
According to my faith there are things one is supposed to do and things one isn't supposed to do ~ the "rules" I guess you could say. Breaking the rules or not doing what you are supposed to do is a sin. And I actually do get that and believe it.
I worded it badly, actually. That's what I get for trying to do several things at once. I do believe there are "bad" things I can do--sins, if you will. I just try not to apply my own code to other people. Well, aside from some of the more universal things, like rape is never cool and child abuse is terrible and so forth.

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Originally Posted by blulilacgrl View Post
But now that being said, considering I break the "rules" all the time, I really don't concern myself with if other people are doing the same. So I break "rules" #3, 7, & 9 and someone else breaks "rules" #2, 5, & 6. Fine, when I get to judgment I will account my "bad behavior" and everyone else can account for their own.
If there is a final judgment, I feel pretty much the same way you do about it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by blulilacgrl View Post
Plus, I think humans are supremely arrogant for thinking that they can understand the mind of God. It may be possible that we can get glimpses, but I think that's it.

This made me laugh. Growing up whenever I pestered my father with too many questions of why God did or did not do something, the answer was always "I don't know. Ask him when you meet him."
I think that's the most honest answer anybody can give, LOL.
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Old 04-06-2013, 08:50 PM   #299
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Of such words are generational chasms formed!
Ha - I'm now too old to use that word, if it makes you feel better.
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Old 04-06-2013, 09:17 PM   #300
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I think Stag was being sarcastic, there. Trying to say that this is the attitude the non-believers of Lit try to put forth in threads involving religion. I don't think that's how he feels.
Huh. I totally didn't see that, and don't see that. However, I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt (because I know how hard it is to convey sarcasm in print) and say if that's so, I apologize.
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