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Old 03-28-2013, 12:17 AM   #126
satindesire
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Originally Posted by njlauren View Post
That is the problem, they don't. I agree totally, and I don't give a crap if some church wants to believe Jewish cultural law is 'the truth', they can think I am going to hell or someone else, God bless them. The problem is that the religious have done just as you say, or their leaders have. Up until 50 years ago, you couldn't legally buy any kind of birth control in Connecticut because of the Catholic Church, and DOMA was passed in the congress because the religious decided that they wanted the state to show disapproval of homosexuality. All those people who claim it is the word marriage are also full of shit, the reason they want marriage kept away from gays is because without that term, everything else doesn't amount to a bucket of warm spit.

And while thinking religious people realize their morality cannot be others, they also don't care enough to do something. The droolers, the evangelicals and such, go around chortling that every time ballot initiatives come up banning same sex marriage, they win, so if a majority support it, how come that happens? And it is because the thinking religious people don't give of enough of a crap to actually vote, if they had, prop 8 wouldn't have passed, and a lot of the other bans might not have passed. If the people in the research triangle area of North Carolina had voted in numbers, instead of leaving it to the rednecks, their incredibly been 'defense of marriage' law wouldn't have passed. If all the 'thinking' religious people, the people that belong to welcoming churches, the cafeteria catholics who think the bishops are a joke, all went and actually voted their conscience, it would be a different ballgame.
Not enough thinking religious people voted against prop 8. Our anger about that is completely justified. But that's changing now. It'll take a little bit of time, but compared to the hundreds of years that religious people haven't done jack diddly, public opinion and activism is making LEAPS AND BOUNDS of progress.

Be patient. It will come. Don't fight against the thinking religious folks, fight with them. Your anger is misdirected. Don't make us enemies, we don't want that and if you want change, you don't either.
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Old 03-28-2013, 12:22 AM   #127
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Originally Posted by KoPilot View Post
The point I'm trying to make is that religious institutions seem to get a disproportionate amount of hate and distrust from non-theists compared to other, secular ones. And I have a very hard time believing that it has nothing to do with their personal feelings.

Not making excuses for anybody. Religious institutions suck. But so do practically all the other ones.

tl;dr: I'd like to see you protest a play party's dress code that madates a suit-and-tie theme or a "back to school" one with the same vehemence as your Catholic opposition.

The only difference is that religious institutions proclaim themselves to be this 'loving' church and so forth, and more importantly, while wall street and the rest talk with their money and influence, comparing the two is a bit idiotic. Wall street excesses fouled up the economy and such, but in terms of individual rights and the like, Wall Street is meaningless, they don't give a shit about trans people, they don't give a shit who you sleep with, who you marry, they don't care, whereas groups like the Catholic Church and the evangelicals do care, and they want to force their knuckle dragging stupidity on our lives, force everyone to live by their stupidity.....Wall street isn't trying to get creationism taught as science, wall street isn't trying to force kids to say their idiotic prayers in school, wall street isn't trying to have teaching evolution banned, or teaching critical thinking skills in the schools.....they are a bunch of amoral bastards, believe me, I have worked the tech side of that for a lot of years, but they also don't interfere that much in my life, either. Not giving them a free pass, what you think you know about Wall Street is about 30% of what really goes on...but the reality is that Wall Street in many ways has less impact on our lives then the fucktards in the churches do, for different reasons.
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Old 03-28-2013, 12:28 AM   #128
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Originally Posted by Bramblethorn View Post
I'm seriously wondering whether some sort of schism is approaching. I have a lot of Catholic family and quiet a few friends, and the rift between where they stand and the official party line is immense.

And yet both major political parties are strongly influenced by the party line, to the point where neither one has found the guts to position itself in favour of something that 60%+ of Australians support :-/
To give you an idea of the hold religion has, the power, the supreme court is debating california's prop 8, whether it is constitutionally illegal because it violates equal protection. The court could issue a broad reaching decision, basically saying that outlawing same sex marriage while allowing opposite sex marriage is a violation of it. However, even some of the liberal judges are questioning whether this is the time to do this, they fear a backlash..and guess where that backlash will come from? You got it, the religious community. As a result, they most likely will take the cowards way out, and basically declare that those supporting prop 8 have no standing to do so, which will uphold a lower court ruling that invalidated prop 8 in California but has nothing to do with the rest of the states.
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Old 03-28-2013, 12:38 AM   #129
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Originally Posted by satindesire View Post
Not enough thinking religious people voted against prop 8. Your anger about that is completely justified.

True that-- a LOT of thinking religious people voted FOR prop 8. And not enough churches didn't NOT pour money into getting it passed, don't forget. By the way, I fixed that for you.
Quote:
But that's changing now. It'll take a little bit of time, but compared to the hundreds of years that religious people haven't done jack diddly, public opinion and activism is making LEAPS AND BOUNDS of progress.
yes-- but that is because we outsiders started demanding it. And because we took it to the courts. And the streets. And we started boycotting, petitioning, and every other form of protest that is legally available to us.

Not because religious folks suddenly decided that they could no longer rest on their laurels, which is what they were doing until we started rioting.

Quote:
Be patient. It will come. Don't fight against the thinking religious folks, fight with them. Your anger is misdirected. Don't make us enemies, we don't want that and if you want change, you don't either.

Are you actually threatening to stop supporting human rights because someone on the internet asked you to step away -- really?

Oh... snap.
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Old 03-28-2013, 12:45 AM   #130
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Originally Posted by satindesire View Post

I'm not equating it,
I'm saying that any amount of finger pointing and blaming without working towards eliminating the problems is useless. Hatred for something does nothing to solve the issue.

But look at what people like yourself and Stella are saying on this thread. Here are several positive examples of religious people coming forward and openly stating that The Church has severe flaws and has done severe damage and needs to change, yet you guys are still acting like we're not allowed to be upset when we get treated like bad people for being religious, regardless of us reaching out and trying to make a difference towards bettering the wrongs that have been done. Shit, I feel like talking to you guys is like talking to a brick wall. Not every religious person is a bad person out to get Teh Gheys, so a little tolerance on BOTH sides would be nice.

I FULLY REALIZE that The Church has done horrible HORRIBLE things. Please don't act like we're sitting here saying you're not allowed to feel bad about it. Guess what? WE FEEL BAD ABOUT IT TOO!

I hate doing this, you know? Every single time I get into a conversation about religion on this board, someone invariably always tells me that I'm not allowed to tell people to "get over" what has happened and is happening with The Church and laws, and I just want to make this absolutely crystal clear. I have never said or even implied that anyone should ever "get over" injustice. Please don't treat the faithful people that are working towards bridging the gap between us like this, you're not solving the issues by slapping the hand we're extending. I literally dread religious conversation on this board and often avoid them just for this reason.




I've talked with the hubs about this a few times, about how we both feel a major "Martin Luther" reformation-like rift forming within The Church as more and more faithful step away from the superconservative Church that won't support human rights. I feel like as there's been more and more exposure in the media, people are seeing the flaws in the system for what they are, unfair and painful...I think that the congregation is starting to understand that they can't sit back and watch other human beings suffer. They're starting to step forward and it's causing ripples everywhere. It's exponential growth, it'll continue towards marriage equality and other LGBT rights issues that need to be resolved.

It's really easy for the faithful to sit back and say, well, I don't do stuff like that...but it doesn't change the laws when everyone just sits. Now people are standing, working towards change. I've seen it coming, it's just a matter of time now.
I hope so, I am not so optimistic. There is a catholic church about a half mile from my house, lot of families go there, kind of place where generations have gone here in the nice, quiet burbs. The priest is a first class a-hole, he tried to get our town council to issue a proclamation supporting marriage is for straight families only (which failed, despite the fact that members of his church put on a full court press, and the ones who didn't agree sat on their hands).

The real problem is the Catholic church is not set up for change, it is basically a fascist organization by definition, there is no democracy to it, not allowance for change. Put it this way, leaving out LGBT issues, the church still has not done anything really about the pedophile priests and those who covered for them, Mahony outright admitted he broke the law in california, yet he kept his status, the Bishop in KC covered for a priest, was convicted in court of doing so, and still has his job, haven't seen protests or people withholding their tithe..and this is about protecting their children (basically the rules protecting children are absolutely bogus, because there are no penalties for those who violate them ). I keep hearing how people are outraged, angry, but they still go to church, they still give their money, and being angry is great, but how do you effect change without doing anything? If people really wanted to show their outrage, they would find out how much as a percent their tithe goes to the diocese and the vatican, and cut that out of their tithe, and encourage others to do that as a protest. Last I checked, the vatican gets 300 million a year from the US, you cut that down or out, think they will get the message..It works. When the shit hit the fan in Boston, with that gem Cardinal Law (who said all gays were degenerates, what a loving man), with all the lawsuits, the reason Law was removed from office (but given a nice sinecure by JPII, that all these catholics tell me was this wonderful, warm man *puke*), was that a group of prominent Catholics, including Peter Lynch (he of Fidelity fame, legendary fund manager) told JPII that they wouldn't help clean the mess up unless he was gone, which JPII did, reluctantly.

I don't think there is going to be a schism, I think what is going to happen is the church is going to die off, it will be the province mostly of the old and the recent immigrants. Rates of church attendance are plummeting, and young people are a rapidly disappearing thing, lot of kids, once they are away from mom and dad, go bye bye and don't return, and among young people, belief in any church is really, really low.....give it a generation or two, and the US church will be as dead as it is in Europe (I mean, 10% of people in fucking Italy go to church..unreal...)....The US Bishops are just as stupid as the vatican is, and they live in a dreamworld. The other problem is they can't get priests, the average age is approaching 70.....
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Old 03-28-2013, 12:49 AM   #131
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Originally Posted by njlauren View Post
Stupidity is stupidity, and the only way you tackle it is by showing the way yourself. That said, even though the person is not religious, the images of gays, the idea of gays being dirty, can be directly tied back to religion; it was only a blink of an eye time wise when most people went to church, and even though many of the people you are talking about aren't religious themselves, they probably went as children,and it is likely their parents and grand parents were religious, went to church, and were inculcated in the stupidity of 2000 year old bronze age nomads who wrote that dreck.
Personally, I think it's more to do with physical and intellectual insularity. A fear of the unknown, if you will. Their attitudes are fuelled by the gutter press sector of the media here particularly with regard to racism ("immigrants coming over here, taking our jobs, claiming benefits we've paid for in taxes"). Yes, I'm showing the way myself but I'm a very lone voice in the wilderness.

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Old 03-28-2013, 12:56 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by satindesire View Post
Not enough thinking religious people voted against prop 8. Our anger about that is completely justified. But that's changing now. It'll take a little bit of time, but compared to the hundreds of years that religious people haven't done jack diddly, public opinion and activism is making LEAPS AND BOUNDS of progress.

Be patient. It will come. Don't fight against the thinking religious folks, fight with them. Your anger is misdirected. Don't make us enemies, we don't want that and if you want change, you don't either.
I make enemies of no one, and I know there are supporters. I make my point to the almost 60% of Catholics who support same sex marriage, the reputedly (not sure I believe these polls) 70% support same sex marriage across the board, to vote your beliefs. If we had 80% turnout in elections in this country, the chautauqua tent that the GOP has become would be totally collapsed, the GOP would go the way of the whig party. My dad used to say nothing happened by osmosis, that unless people get out on the battlements, nothing happens...

Yes, it has changed rapidly, and one of the reasons is the very thing the religious wrong didn't want, people came to realize that what the local priest said, the local Bishop or minister, was drivel. They saw out gay people with families, and said shit, they have the same problems I do (especially if they have teenagers).....people claim courts shouldn't decide things, but look what happened, mass made gay marriage legal in court, and suddenly people realized their marriage didn't end, God didn't dump lightening bolts on us, locusts didn't get us, Chic Fil A is still located mainly in the hookworm belt...and suddenly people said what is the big deal? The biggest reason for the change is that people say gays as human beings, not as this chimera that the churches have been preaching for years, they saw neighbors, friends and relatives....

I think one thing Catholics especially cannot do is laugh about the Bishops and vatican and pretend they are Colonel Klink, like they are the eccentric uncle you laugh about. I was on a LGBT oriented parenting list years ago, and there were people who belonged to Catholic churches, and they laughed about JPII, and the Bishops, and said how their own church was welcoming.....but couldn't get past the idea that their own safe little bubble wasn't safe, that said Bishop could break up the happy family, and that laughing at Pete the Polish prince and his gang of neo-medievalists was as dangerous as laughing at the evangelicals, which people used to do.....
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Old 03-28-2013, 12:59 AM   #133
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Satin, you are confusing dissent with not being nice, and also discussion with action.

I hang out in a couple of black feminist blogs. Also, trans feminist blogs.

Every once in a while they will start expressing anger for the ways that feminism has ignored the needs of women of color, or of trans women. And it's absolutely true. And it's getting better, and sometimes I want to speak up and defend cis white feminists, and point out that some of us are better than the ones they are talking about...

But I do not. because 1) they already know that, or else i would not be welcome there, and 2) it's not my job to defend the indefensible, even though I happen to identify with it. I am NOT there to shove my white point of view into every nook and cranny, as if these people had never heard of such a thing-- they live surrounded by white points of view. And by cis points of view.

There is only one way I can possibly end my outlier friends' bitching-- by eradicating the unwitting racism and bigotry that undeniably exists in mainstream feminism. It's getting better. But it isn't nearly better enough. Until it IS nearly better enough, I shut up. I go and yell at the mainstream feminists, not my friends who are their victims.

Telling people to be patient???? How would I dare to be that arrogant! telling them I won't support their cause unless they are more polite to me??? What kind of effrontery, what kind of gall is that! I would be absolutely ashamed of myself.
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Old 03-28-2013, 01:02 AM   #134
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Are you actually threatening to stop supporting human rights because someone on the internet asked you to step away -- really?

Oh... snap.

Umm...not what I got out of satindesire's statement... I got a version of "work with us and we'll work with you, together we stand united we fall" kind of thing... but I guess my comprehension isn't really all that outstanding.

As an aside, I've personally known more than a few Christian representatives (priests, nuns, bothers, padres, etc) who have been quietly preaching tolerance, acceptance and other non doctrine approved teachings for a long time. One, Sister Saleen (if she's still alive, doubtful, she was 76 when I knew her nineteen years ago) for longer than the gay rights movement has been around.

Doesn't do anything to lessen my dislike of organised religion, but I try not to blame the good (if severely misguided) people who belong to these organisations.
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Old 03-28-2013, 02:25 AM   #135
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Originally Posted by Stella_Omega View Post
True that-- a LOT of thinking religious people voted FOR prop 8. And not enough churches didn't NOT pour money into getting it passed, don't forget. By the way, I fixed that for you. yes-- but that is because we outsiders started demanding it. And because we took it to the courts. And the streets. And we started boycotting, petitioning, and every other form of protest that is legally available to us.

Not because religious folks suddenly decided that they could no longer rest on their laurels, which is what they were doing until we started rioting.


Are you actually threatening to stop supporting human rights because someone on the internet asked you to step away -- really?

Oh... snap.
Yeah, Stella, I'm so fickle and shallow with my support, it's just a trend you know. I'm actually just another hateful bigoted religious person that's just SAYING that I believe in human rights and equality. I'd TOTALLY stop supporting human rights because someone on the internet asked me to step away.

You've got to be fucking kidding me with this shit.

Your bias is showing again. Perhaps you should check yourself.

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Originally Posted by Stella_Omega View Post
Satin, you are confusing dissent with not being nice, and also discussion with action.

I hang out in a couple of black feminist blogs. Also, trans feminist blogs.

Every once in a while they will start expressing anger for the ways that feminism has ignored the needs of women of color, or of trans women. And it's absolutely true. And it's getting better, and sometimes I want to speak up and defend cis white feminists, and point out that some of us are better than the ones they are talking about...

But I do not. because 1) they already know that, or else i would not be welcome there, and 2) it's not my job to defend the indefensible, even though I happen to identify with it. I am NOT there to shove my white point of view into every nook and cranny, as if these people had never heard of such a thing-- they live surrounded by white points of view. And by cis points of view.

There is only one way I can possibly end my outlier friends' bitching-- by eradicating the unwitting racism and bigotry that undeniably exists in mainstream feminism. It's getting better. But it isn't nearly better enough. Until it IS nearly better enough, I shut up. I go and yell at the mainstream feminists, not my friends who are their victims.

Telling people to be patient???? How would I dare to be that arrogant! telling them I won't support their cause unless they are more polite to me??? What kind of effrontery, what kind of gall is that! I would be absolutely ashamed of myself.
Jesus. Jumproping. Christ.

I'm not the person here that needs to be ashamed of themselves right now, Stella.

I need to step away from the computer, you're pissing me off right now.

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Umm...not what I got out of satindesire's statement... I got a version of "work with us and we'll work with you, together we stand united we fall" kind of thing... but I guess my comprehension isn't really all that outstanding.

As an aside, I've personally known more than a few Christian representatives (priests, nuns, bothers, padres, etc) who have been quietly preaching tolerance, acceptance and other non doctrine approved teachings for a long time. One, Sister Saleen (if she's still alive, doubtful, she was 76 when I knew her nineteen years ago) for longer than the gay rights movement has been around.

Doesn't do anything to lessen my dislike of organised religion, but I try not to blame the good (if severely misguided) people who belong to these organisations.
Thanks, I guess.
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Old 03-28-2013, 01:50 PM   #136
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Yeah, it's all about you. It's all about me. Uh no.

There are no cookies for doing that basic good human being stuff that people are supposed to do. You do it because it's the right thing to do, and even if everyone still hates you and distrusts you you *still* do it. You put your focus on how messed up it is that anyone still has to feel this way, you don't personalize every single thing.

Nobody should have to get granular. Black people should not have to put weasel words and disclaimers talking to white people - "oh you've never said this particular BINGO stupid thing to me, and you've never touched my damn hair, of course, so I don't mean you..."

If someone's talking about hair-touching dumbassery around me, I don't make it an opportunity to brag about the fact that the only time I touched someone's hair was when she asked me, blah blah. I *try* to imagine what it would feel like if your difference made you into someone's special interest petting experience every week or so and how suck ass that is. Try being operative - I can't. My personal discomfort is trumped by that.

Reactions that make sense: that sucks. I'm sorry. I can't even imagine what that's like.

Extrapolate slightly, it's just an example.
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Old 03-28-2013, 02:30 PM   #137
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Old 03-28-2013, 03:46 PM   #138
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Okay. So. I was really pissed off and wrote some really angry things. But I'm calmer now.

I didn't try to make this all about me, but I think the hostility towards religious people is ridiculous just like I think the hostility towards non-religious people is ridiculous. This isn't me bragging, and being accused of that is...absolute horseshit. What exactly do you expect from me by telling me that I should be ashamed of myself, or that I'm bragging? What's your intentions? Because to me, it just looks like you're pointing fingers and putting words in my mouth that I never said and then treating me like I'm a villain due to your own preconceived notions.


This is a topic ABOUT RELIGION.
So me coming here talking about the fact that I am religious IS PERFECTLY ACCEPTABLE. I'm not going into y'all's threads about anal bleaching or what the fuck ever and talking about how Jesus can save you. Shit, I'm a religious person and I think people that do that are morons! I don't like any beliefs or lack therefo being shoved down anyone's throat, I think it's unfair and disgusting.

But God forbid anyone be religious because of the stupid few that ruin it for everyone. If you're religious, you're automatically branded a bigot, or "Arrogant" and told that we should be ASHAMED of ourselves because of our beliefs. How many times have I seen people say that religious folks are "Severely misguided", or Stupid, or Idiots to believe in God/s? How many times have I seen people say that Religion is the cause of all evil and that the only way to rid the world of problems would be to destroy religion?

I'm in a minority too! Several, in fact. I'm Native American, I'm female, and I'm pansexual! But instead of pointing fingers at Whites, Men, and Straights, I work WITH THEM without hostility and bias to correct the wrongs of the past. Martin Luther King Jr. didn't want hostility and hate to the basis of the interaction between blacks and whites, and I think he had the right idea. To fix things, we need mutual respect and tolerance and love. I am so fucking sorry that the world is the way it is, but I won't apologize for standing up and saying that we need mutual respect and kindness to fix the old hatreds of the past. I won't sit in silence and have someone tell me that I should be ashamed or that when I tell people that not every believer is a hateful bigot, that I'm "Bragging". I won't sit in silence and be okay with someone looking down on me or any other good person for believing differently. I'm POSITIVE that y'all don't like that, so why are y'all doing it?

Hate Begets Hate. Love is the only answer.

I recognize and openly admit the historical inequality and bigotry that minorities of all kinds have suffered under the yolk of oppressive Big 3 religion. But telling me that the ONLY ACCEPTABLE THING TO SAY IS XYZ is hypocrisy. I recognize and openly admit the historical advantages that members of the Big 3 religions have had. HOWEVER, being completely anti-religious and bigoted towards members of religions to the point where you can't even have an adult conversation with them without constantly reminding them of how terrible they are for believing is the same nonsense that you're hating the religious people for. Let's drop the hypocrisy on both sides, let's drop the hostility and hatred, let's work together and move on and heal. I'm not saying forget, I'm saying embrace the FACT that people are individuals and respect them as humans.

I in no way believe that there are any excuses for systematic alienation and abuse. I don't believe that the past sins of the Big 3 religions are "defensible" and I'm not here to defend that, if y'all had open eyes you'd easily see I've done exactly the opposite. What I have said, over and over and over again until I'm literally sick with the stress of it, is that dismissing all believers and shaming us isn't going to uplift our cause. No One Wants To Pet A Hissing Cat. We have every right to be angry at the injustices, but being angry at all believers is merely setting us back in our efforts. Is that so hard to accept?

Not every religious person is an evil hateful person that's using God/s as an excuse for hateful actions. It's not going to solve any problems painting people with a broad brush, that's the nonsense we're all trying to escape.

Rise above it. Step with us hand in hand, don't pin us all on the spit to be roasted for things that we're working with you to correct!
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Old 03-28-2013, 04:04 PM   #139
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Jesus on a pogo stick.

So to speak.

I'm putting you on iggy for a while, see you on the flip side.
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Old 03-28-2013, 04:13 PM   #140
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Jesus on a pogo stick.

So to speak.

I'm putting you on iggy for a while, see you on the flip side.
Likewise.
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Old 03-28-2013, 05:07 PM   #141
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Old 03-28-2013, 08:40 PM   #142
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I've been the minority told not to be so loud and angry and it really feels like shit. When you're in the position of privilege and you want to be an ally, you start by listening.

It's easy to forget, btw. Here's a semi-lighthearted example. I have a friend who is in almost every way not coming from a position of privilege - female, person of color, Muslim, queer..*****bably more I'm forgetting, lol. But she's skinny. She started lecturing me about how hard it is to be a skinny person and all this shit and I was like, OHHHH, this is the first time you've ever been in the position of power in society! Honey, you may not realize this but this is your turn to STFU and not tell me how to feel. LOL.
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Old 03-28-2013, 10:06 PM   #143
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I've been the minority told not to be so loud and angry and it really feels like shit. When you're in the position of privilege and you want to be an ally, you start by listening.

It's easy to forget, btw. Here's a semi-lighthearted example. I have a friend who is in almost every way not coming from a position of privilege - female, person of color, Muslim, queer..*****bably more I'm forgetting, lol. But she's skinny. She started lecturing me about how hard it is to be a skinny person and all this shit and I was like, OHHHH, this is the first time you've ever been in the position of power in society! Honey, you may not realize this but this is your turn to STFU and not tell me how to feel. LOL.
A little thing called "Intersectionality."

*nods*
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Old 03-28-2013, 11:56 PM   #144
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Originally Posted by intothewoods View Post
I've been the minority told not to be so loud and angry and it really feels like shit. When you're in the position of privilege and you want to be an ally, you start by listening.

It's easy to forget, btw. Here's a semi-lighthearted example. I have a friend who is in almost every way not coming from a position of privilege - female, person of color, Muslim, queer..*****bably more I'm forgetting, lol. But she's skinny. She started lecturing me about how hard it is to be a skinny person and all this shit and I was like, OHHHH, this is the first time you've ever been in the position of power in society! Honey, you may not realize this but this is your turn to STFU and not tell me how to feel. LOL.
Yeah, my stepmom, who weighs a whopping 105 lbs (and had to diet to get there) was complaining to me about being skinny recently. I wouldn't want to be that skinny, either, but if given the choice between too skinny or too fat, I'd choose too skinny. At least people wouldn't be looking in my shopping cart to see what I'm buying.
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Old 03-29-2013, 12:08 AM   #145
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Pagels for breakfast, with cream cheese and coffee!

What a yummy mind she has, and what a service she has done the religious and secular worlds, by digging in the millennial fields of Christian propaganda and power struggles, and uncovering a lost world.
Truth be told, I know more of Ehrman than Pagels, but I'm not completely unfamiliar with her. They cite each other and such.

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It's an interesting thought, D/s and religion. I see so many parallels, and eroticize religious ritual so naturally, that it seems grown from the same cutting. For most people, it doesn't seem to be the case.
I've toyed with the idea of making a thread about it, but it's equal parts laziness and the assumption that either no one would care or that it'd turn into a clusterfuck because it'd have the word "religion" in it that has stopped me from doing so. Well, that and the fact that it'd require me talking about some things I still don't know if I'm ready (or will ever be ready) to discuss

Again, ex-Baptist-churchgoer, so the ritual aspect is just...meh...to me. It holds no interest whatsoever. But the adoration of and devotion to something perceived to be greater than oneself and the ecstatic joining with the Divine? Yeah. I get that.
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Old 03-29-2013, 12:10 AM   #146
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Truth be told, I know more of Ehrman than Pagels, but I'm not completely unfamiliar with her. They cite each other and such.



I've toyed with the idea of making a thread about it, but it's equal parts laziness and the assumption that either no one would care or that it'd turn into a clusterfuck because it'd have the word "religion" in it that has stopped me from doing so. Well, that and the fact that it'd require me talking about some things I still don't know if I'm ready (or will ever be ready) to discuss

Again, ex-Baptist-churchgoer, so the ritual aspect is just...meh...to me. It holds no interest whatsoever. But the adoration of and devotion to something perceived to be greater than oneself and the ecstatic joining with the Divine? Yeah. I get that.
See-- if you wanted to start that thread, I would gladly read along. It's something that I don't know or understand.
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Old 03-29-2013, 05:18 AM   #147
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Originally Posted by intothewoods View Post
I've been the minority told not to be so loud and angry and it really feels like shit. When you're in the position of privilege and you want to be an ally, you start by listening.

It's easy to forget, btw. Here's a semi-lighthearted example. I have a friend who is in almost every way not coming from a position of privilege - female, person of color, Muslim, queer..*****bably more I'm forgetting, lol. But she's skinny. She started lecturing me about how hard it is to be a skinny person and all this shit and I was like, OHHHH, this is the first time you've ever been in the position of power in society! Honey, you may not realize this but this is your turn to STFU and not tell me how to feel. LOL.
More words being put in my mouth. I love it. It's like no one listens to anything positive I said at all, I might as well not say anything then. What's the point?

Fine. I'm a big ole scapegoat. Gotcha. Now I know where I stand here, I'm stepping out of the thread entirely. Obviously everything I say will get twisted negatively no matter what it is. I'm sure even this will be, too...I don't even know why I bother.
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Old 03-29-2013, 06:03 AM   #148
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See-- if you wanted to start that thread, I would gladly read along. It's something that I don't know or understand.
this coulda woulda shoulda been that thread.

Between the open hostilities and tolerance failure, there's no space for such celebration on this forum.

I'm not pointing fingers at anyone in particular; shame on all of you.
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Old 03-29-2013, 08:08 AM   #149
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More words being put in my mouth. I love it. It's like no one listens to anything positive I said at all, I might as well not say anything then. What's the point?

Fine. I'm a big ole scapegoat. Gotcha. Now I know where I stand here, I'm stepping out of the thread entirely. Obviously everything I say will get twisted negatively no matter what it is. I'm sure even this will be, too...I don't even know why I bother.
I do think you need to step back and listen more. But I was talking more generally and not just about this thread.
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Old 03-29-2013, 10:32 AM   #150
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this coulda woulda shoulda been that thread.

Between the open hostilities and tolerance failure, there's no space for such celebration on this forum.

I'm not pointing fingers at anyone in particular; shame on all of you.
Raised voices are not the end of the world.

no, this was not that thread. That thread would have to be pretty specific in it's first post, making it clear what the intention is. This thread asked for opinions. That thread would be asking for experiences.
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