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Old 07-19-2003, 04:50 PM   #1
evesdream
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D/s and self awareness

*Warning* ~this thread begins with a post that features women's blood and menstruation~ Not for the faint of heart~

So I recently got back from Jamaica - My trip co-incided with a huge religious/political conference. There are a lot of sects in this religion all with very different ways of doing things. There was one sect with a commune in the Blue Mountains who require that women separate themselves from men for twenty-one days out of the month, one week before their cycles, one week after, and of course during - into the menstrual hut with you. It has a big red flag waving above it. When you enter the village, a woman at the gate asks you "When last?" to determine whether you are allowed in or not. (You'd better be good at math, or else not 'unclean' to be let in if you are an adult woman because as it happens, no one wants to see you if you are not at an impregnable stage)

I know that all of this can have other meanings for the women there but- but when I first heard about it I thought I would drive my tail into the ground, spin around, and die of outrage.

My loosely related questions are:

1 Do you think that social and religious practices that constrain sexuality can be defined in a BDSM context?

2 How do you react when something about your lifestyle or beliefs are viewed as outrageous? (just curious)

3 Is it possible to be in a Ds relationship without a self-knowledge that tells you you are being dominated? Without a self-conscious exchange of power?
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Old 07-19-2003, 05:18 PM   #2
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That was scary menstruation talk? I'd better put a super duper warning up if I ever have a red showers thread.

IMO:

D/s or SM are dependent, by definition, on a cognizant and aware powerplay. They are defined by the self consciousness of the exchange, the psychodramatic dimension. A socially tuned power differential, to me, is not D/s. Doing what my husband wants because society tells me that's right is not D/s. Doing what my husband wants because *I* tell me that's right, is.

There are power differentials allllll over the world, in all kinds of flavors.

Same goes for same-sex relationships. 2 men fondling each other in the Mid East as a premarital sexual outlet that doesn't ruin any woman's virginity are not "gay" as we think of it. 2 men fondling each other in a hotel room in NYC as an end to a perfect evening, may well be.
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Old 07-20-2003, 01:37 AM   #3
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Quote:
Originally posted by Netzach
That was scary menstruation talk? I'd better put a super duper warning up if I ever have a red showers thread.
hey, sorry to disappoint- i was being kind of sardonic.
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Old 07-20-2003, 02:07 AM   #4
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Ugh, sorry to disappoint I was being kind of dense.

I'm interested in your take on this.
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Old 07-20-2003, 05:33 AM   #5
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Re: D/s and self awareness

Quote:
Originally posted by evesdream

My loosely related questions are:

1 Do you think that social and religious practices that constrain sexuality can be defined in a BDSM context?


IMHO, no. Cultural differences are just that and do have a significance independent of BDSM, a lifestyle which the participants may never have heard of.

2 How do you react when something about your lifestyle or beliefs are viewed as outrageous? (just curious)

Depends by whom, in what way, and when. Usually I try to inform in an effort to present them with a more realistic view than most critics have. On the whole I think most who have such outspoken negative views, do not have an informed base from which to formulate an unbiased opinion, have heard many myths, are scared by their own curiosity, or are just beyond apprciating anything they themselves do ot do.

3 Is it possible to be in a Ds relationship without a self-knowledge that tells you you are being dominated? Without a self-conscious exchange of power?
It is for some I guess, though I would question how far the commitment is going, and for how long. Overall, I think it would be difficult to be in that position in D/s without acknowledging and accepting it, as that then constitutes abuse. Then again maybe I have misunderstood the question.

C
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Old 07-20-2003, 01:09 PM   #6
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1 Do you think that social and religious practices that constrain sexuality can be defined in a BDSM context?

I suppose there are those here who will try. Suffice it to say I wouldn't.

2 How do you react when something about your lifestyle or beliefs are viewed as outrageous? (just curious)

I shrug my shoulders and cross them off My list of potential subs (if they are men) or friends (if they are women).

Since I do not parade my dominance, just like I do not parade my sexual preferences, it is a non issue.
When they do it here as a troll, I have fun with them.

3 Is it possible to be in a Ds relationship without a self-knowledge that tells you you are being dominated? Without a self-conscious exchange of power?

I think the answer to this is obvious. NO.
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Old 07-20-2003, 10:36 PM   #7
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On the other hand; a woman with a great deal of psychosexual awareness who chose to live in such a community might get a major thrill from being there. She might be getting-off in a way that her sisters weren't. Goes back to Netsachs point tho.
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Old 07-21-2003, 09:17 AM   #8
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Re: D/s and self awareness

Quote:
Originally posted by evesdream
1 Do you think that social and religious practices that constrain sexuality can be defined in a BDSM context?

I suppose it depends on you define D/s. It may be defined by the power exchange that occurs, but there are often "vanilla" power exchanges throughout any society. i.e. You have a supervisor at work, who has a certain amount of control. You are the employee. You both fulfill a role that is , in theory, desirable and meets your financial needs. Therein exists a power exchange, sans the sexual stuff.

2 How do you react when something about your lifestyle or beliefs are viewed as outrageous? (just curious)

I keep many things private and this is one of them. I tend to be empathetic toward people who dont' understand as it wasn't too long ago that part of my own "journey" was to open my eyes and try to rid myself of vanilla thinking.

3 Is it possible to be in a Ds relationship without a self-knowledge that tells you you are being dominated? Without a self-conscious exchange of power?
Yep.
There are people I respond to in a submissive manner based on their deportment, their dominant personality etc. And again, refer to the example of employer/employee.
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Old 07-21-2003, 11:40 AM   #9
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Netzach, I'm still formulating my perspective on it - so more questions than answers. This whole topic is interesting to me because it seems straightforward, but it isn't really.

1 Do you think that social and religious practices that constrain sexuality can be defined in a BDSM context?

What sounds nice is a definition of D/s based on natural equality where everyone involved is conscious that they have a choice and that none of this is naturally or even culturally ordained, but I question whether this isn't idealism, whether most of us are not often blind to the constraints (particularly cultural) that help to define our sexuality.

It also makes me wonder- what does BDSM look like in another culture, one that isn't based on the beliefs of the enlightenment? Is 'real' D/s impossible without a 'basic' (Western or Liberal) understanding of equality?

2 How do you react when something about your lifestyle or beliefs are viewed as outrageous? (just curious)

I both squirm and revel in it.


3 Is it possible to be in a Ds relationship without a self-knowledge that tells you you are being dominated? Without a self-conscious exchange of power?

When I asked this question I was thinking about D/s that produces arousal- sexual submission and sexual domination- but Miss Taken brings in some good points when it comes to other types of D/s relations.

I agree that self-aware power exchange makes everything much spicier, in fact it is very much the point of the whole she-bang for me, but what about ways of relating in the lifestyle that are based on notions of supremacy: one gender is naturally the superior of the other- or that a submissive will be naturally obeisant to a true and natural Dom. In some ways this could be ritual submission, but to some it is the core of submission. Are they simply operating under systems of hierarchy rather than systems of pleasure? In a definition of D/s based on natural equality, these folks are simply wrong or false or not in touch with their personal power - to put it harshly. I guess that this has been debated to death in other threads, and it's still an impossible topic.
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Old 07-21-2003, 12:02 PM   #10
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Some interesting definitions of D/s

N had said in part: "Same goes for same-sex relationships. 2 men fondling each other in the Mid East as a premarital sexual outlet that doesn't ruin any woman's virginity are not "gay" as we think of it. 2 men fondling each other in a hotel room in NYC as an end to a perfect evening, may well be."

This is a definition of Gay that separates an act from a mindset- using a person of the same gender for release, not for a love affair (right?). So that by this token, a person who uses men in prison is less "gay" than say, Oscar Wilde&Lord Bose, even though pleasure and arousal are there.** Does this comparison mean that we're basing our D/s practices on acts of love and intimacy?

I dunno about this. Continuing to piggyback on Netzach's example, it seems arbitrary to base a definition of D/s on something other than the act. Eliminating acts of domination that are clearly oppressive (i.e. government forcing someone to submit to torture) i'm still wondering about the idea that surrender without acknowledgement of surrender, or that simple arousal does not a D/s encounter make.

And as I understand Catalina's definition, D/s is very much relational. That if both/all people are not in on the power exchange, one of them is probably being sexually(?) abused. i.e. woe to the indie D/s-er that rosco pointed out, who operates with or without the awareness of the other.

FOr myself, as a closet case for many a year, I totally see how sexual D/s can be pulled off in a series of unspoken of gestures, and code. Frustrating though and way too high on drama, short on intimacy to last very long imo.

**although the question kind of hovers there: what exactly are they getting off on? I mean, if they aren't gay, if this isn't homosexuality, they are just...rutting beasts, then.
=====

My sincere thanks to everyone who's answered my questions so far.
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Old 07-22-2003, 12:42 AM   #11
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Nah, I don't mean it in an exclusionary "they don't count" way. I'm saying the whole notion of "gay" as a western contemporary figure understands it, the codes, the context, the identity shape and parameter, is in part, unintelligible outside of itself. Homosexuality is by no means exclusive to the west, nor is self-aware homosexuality. The contemporary, oppositional, identity construct that we know of as "gay" is. There are constructs of homosexuality outside the west that, of course, exclude the contemporary western notion of gay and are in part unintelligible to a contemporary westerner with that perspective, it's not a ranking that I'm intimating.

Was Michelangelo gay?

He may have been homosexual, but the meaning and the weight of that, in that place, time and moment of Renaissance Italy is so specific that it's not necessarily a guidepost on the "gay" continuum of history. I don't think I can lay a "claim" to Michelangelo, or Emily Dickinson. Wilde may be one of the earliest luminaries in what I *would* call "gay history..." his homosexuality fits into a modern milleu.

The notion of "Gay" that I am considering here rests largely on the individual's willingness to construct identity around that, in a public sense, in a private sense.

Sound familiar? Like "Top" or "Dom" or "bottom" or what have you? Maybe I need to reconsider this D/s thing, actually, teased out from all the other parts of the equation that I find integral.

I'm beginning to think that D/s is behaviorally perfectly possible outside the realm of self conscious intent. We see almost all relationships break down that way.

I'm beginning to think that Leather/SMBD/Top/bottom whatever you call that delightful mix of traditional signifiers bordering on cliche, power dynamics brought to the surface, and a person's desire to go out and buy a whip...that I think is defined by its intent.

I agree that we're more bound culturally and naturally than we might like to think. I'm the last to claim there's no reactionary flavor to my wanting to make boys cry.
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Old 07-23-2003, 09:46 PM   #12
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Re: D/s and self awareness

Quote:
Originally posted by evesdream
<snip>

My loosely related questions are:

1 Do you think that social and religious practices that constrain sexuality can be defined in a BDSM context?

2 How do you react when something about your lifestyle or beliefs are viewed as outrageous? (just curious)

3 Is it possible to be in a Ds relationship without a self-knowledge that tells you you are being dominated? Without a self-conscious exchange of power? <snip>
1. Not really. As with BDSM, not everyone practices the same methods in the lifestyle. Some are into D/s but not S/M. Some are into a little of everything and many dabble in the slap and tickle bedroom variety. Same thing with social and religious rules and regulations. Priests and nuns are not allowed to marry and have sexual relations ... does that make the church Master? In a sense, but the constraint does not encompass the essence of D/s ... the offering of full control to someone and have them use that control to manipulate and restrain you in all aspects of your life (removal of free will as it were). There are, however, many religious practices wherein a woman's sexuality is restrained and she is penalized/scorned if she "flaunts" it. Jewish and Muslim women come to mind and please know i refer to orthodox Jewish and Muslim women. Those relationships could certainly be defined as D/s connections with the one exception ... consent vs. acceptance.

2. i become angry and bite my tongue real hard because i know how frustrated i will become trying to explain what i feel to someone who isn't willing to get beyond their own beliefs and prejudices. i don't want to waste the time if they won't at least give it a shot. eve, it could be as RR said, maybe there are women who find satisfaction in these activities.

3. oh this is a tough one. i don't believe i could be in a D/s relationship and not be fully aware that i was being dominated in some way. i think that much would be evident. Especially in the day to day things where i encountered other women who were not in relationships where they had little or no control. i'd have to have been raised in a community where this was the norm and had no outside influence to the contrary nor any desire to be more active in the decisions concerning my life. Sort of a Stepford Wives thing.

i hope the above made some sense. Great questions eve. Oh, the whole "unclean" thing is kind of spooky in its objectification. You know, the "don't touch that dirty toilet seat until it's cleaned. Put the unclean thing away until it is cleansed." Must admit, the submissive in me responds to objectification and that just goes hand in hand with humiliation; something that is craved by submissives at times.

lara
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Old 07-24-2003, 06:11 AM   #13
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That 'unclean' ruling would be another symbol of generalisation being too restrictive and unenlightened for me. I would never get out of the hut with my 21 day cycle....eek, never see a man again in my life......have to become lesbian by force of need.....where is freedom of choice in this? ROTFLMAO

C
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Old 07-24-2003, 11:31 PM   #14
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"consent vs/ acceptance"

Quote:
Originally posted by s'lara
1. Not really. As with BDSM, not everyone practices the same methods in the lifestyle. Some are into D/s but not S/M. Some are into a little of everything and many dabble in the slap and tickle bedroom variety. Same thing with social and religious rules and regulations. Priests and nuns are not allowed to marry and have sexual relations ... does that make the church Master? In a sense, but the constraint does not encompass the essence of D/s ... the offering of full control to someone and have them use that control to manipulate and restrain you in all aspects of your life (removal of free will as it were). There are, however, many religious practices wherein a woman's sexuality is restrained and she is penalized/scorned if she "flaunts" it. Jewish and Muslim women come to mind and please know i refer to orthodox Jewish and Muslim women. Those relationships could certainly be defined as D/s connections with the one exception ... consent vs. acceptance.

2. i become angry and bite my tongue real hard because i know how frustrated i will become trying to explain what i feel to someone who isn't willing to get beyond their own beliefs and prejudices. i don't want to waste the time if they won't at least give it a shot. :) eve, it could be as RR said, maybe there are women who find satisfaction in these activities.

3. oh this is a tough one. i don't believe i could be in a D/s relationship and not be fully aware that i was being dominated in some way. i think that much would be evident. Especially in the day to day things where i encountered other women who were not in relationships where they had little or no control. i'd have to have been raised in a community where this was the norm and had no outside influence to the contrary nor any desire to be more active in the decisions concerning my life. Sort of a Stepford Wives thing.

i hope the above made some sense. Great questions eve. Oh, the whole "unclean" thing is kind of spooky in its objectification. You know, the "don't touch that dirty toilet seat until it's cleaned. Put the unclean thing away until it is cleansed." Must admit, the submissive in me responds to objectification and that just goes hand in hand with humiliation; something that is craved by submissives at times.

lara

those are good answers lara

there *are* interesting elements in the scenario. And you know, even sharing your submissive inclinations, it would be interesting (read, "of game show proportions") to see how long I would last in it. A real excercise in biting my tongue, even if I was enjoying something about the subjegation.

Or biding my time in the hut with Catalina :p, thinking pure thoughts, or else maybe plotting the revolution, lol.
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Old 07-25-2003, 05:04 AM   #15
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Re: "consent vs/ acceptance"

Quote:
Originally posted by evesdream

Or biding my time in the hut with Catalina , thinking pure thoughts, or else maybe plotting the revolution, lol.
I like this....think I would be doing both as though I spend an inordinate amount of time thinking spiritually cleansing thoughts, similar to the Dalai Lama I cannot help but be dissatisfied with the state of the world and find a place for revolutionary thoughts. Love his musing for world peace using a 'smart' bullet.

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Old 07-25-2003, 09:23 AM   #16
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I'd be the queen of the hut with my sneak-attack non-cycles.

Plus: all the women are mine.

Minus: they are all having their periods.
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Old 07-25-2003, 05:30 PM   #17
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Menstrual Hut Talk

i thought you ladies would get a kick out of the thread below.

http://www.literotica.com:81/forum/s...ight=menstrual
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Old 07-25-2003, 06:31 PM   #18
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Re: Menstrual Hut Talk

Quote:
Originally posted by s'lara
i thought you ladies would get a kick out of the thread below.

Cool one lara...thanks for finding it and letting us enjoy....always good to have a fun side to it all.

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Old 01-24-2013, 09:20 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evesdream View Post
*Warning* ~this thread begins with a post that features women's blood and menstruation~ Not for the faint of heart~

So I recently got back from Jamaica - My trip co-incided with a huge religious/political conference. There are a lot of sects in this religion all with very different ways of doing things. There was one sect with a commune in the Blue Mountains who require that women separate themselves from men for twenty-one days out of the month, one week before their cycles, one week after, and of course during - into the menstrual hut with you. It has a big red flag waving above it. When you enter the village, a woman at the gate asks you "When last?" to determine whether you are allowed in or not. (You'd better be good at math, or else not 'unclean' to be let in if you are an adult woman because as it happens, no one wants to see you if you are not at an impregnable stage)

I know that all of this can have other meanings for the women there but- but when I first heard about it I thought I would drive my tail into the ground, spin around, and die of outrage.

My loosely related questions are:

1 Do you think that social and religious practices that constrain sexuality can be defined in a BDSM context?

2 How do you react when something about your lifestyle or beliefs are viewed as outrageous? (just curious)

3 Is it possible to be in a Ds relationship without a self-knowledge that tells you you are being dominated? Without a self-conscious exchange of power?

1. sure, why not

2. smile and nod, laugh if appropriate

3. sure, why not
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Old 02-04-2013, 09:26 AM   #20
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Back then, when I was smart and relished the art of conversation.
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Old 02-04-2013, 02:28 PM   #21
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1. Whether or not it's meaningful to do so, people will anyway. They like trying to find excuses and "logic" behind things in the weirdest places.

2. Most of what I am would qualify as outrageous by mainstream USian culture. I used to have fun trying to play it up, but I'm not in high school anymore; too busy paying bills and actually trying to accomplish (outrageous) shit to care. If my life was put in danger by any one of these things though, then that'd be a different story.

3. Yeah, but without anyone in the relationship being so unaware of what they're doing, I'll bet there's a higher risk of abuse. If you don't know what's going on, you can't talk about it. And if you can't talk about it, then...
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Old 02-04-2013, 05:20 PM   #22
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Quote:
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2. Most of what I am would qualify as outrageous by mainstream USian culture..
You mean there's a place where you're normal? Japan? ()
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Old 02-05-2013, 01:56 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rosco rathbone View Post
You mean there's a place where you're normal? Japan? ()
Oz

(curse those post length requirements)
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Old 02-05-2013, 10:02 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rosco rathbone View Post
You mean there's a place where you're normal? Japan? ()
Robots and ramen 24/7. I'd be fuckin SET.

Oh and let's not forget that it was Cool Devices that sealed the BDSM deal for me. (please I hope someone else here has seen those)
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Old 02-05-2013, 10:16 PM   #25
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Quote:
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Robots and ramen 24/7. I'd be fuckin SET.

Oh and let's not forget that it was Cool Devices that sealed the BDSM deal for me. (please I hope someone else here has seen those)
I hadn't, but google cures all ills...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cool_Devices
http://www.cooldevices.com/cooldevices.shtml
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